Corroborating Genesis, Book of Jasher, and Stephen's Speech

[yeshuasavedme]

Jasher 43:35 -- Isaac went from Hebron to comfort Jacob, his son, because Joseph is dead (sold). Gen. 35:27-29 Isaac died before Joseph is sold by his brothers

Paul

See , if you would do your own research you would see that the site you paste from is lying in ignorance or deceived and passing deception, but at any rate, they are not Bible scholars, and you are not being a good Berean by not checking them out, for Isaac did not die until he was 180 years old, so let's see how very sloppy your site is in "proving all things" and just making up things to refute that which they do not know:

Jacob was born when Isaac was 60 -Check!
Jacob was 130 when he entered Egypt -Check!
Isaac died ten years before Jacob entered Egypt -Check

Joseph was sold when he was 17 -check
Joseph was 39 years old when Jacob entered Egypt -Check
Isaac died when Joseph was 29 years old and one year before Joseph was set on the throne in Egypt -Check


Gen 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac [was] threescore years old when she bare them.

Gen 35:28 And the days of Isaac were an hundred and fourscore years.
Genesis 47: 7-9 And Joseph brought in Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh: and Jacob blessed Pharaoh
And Pharaoh said unto Jacob, How old [art] thou?
And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage [are] an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage.

Because the Word mentions someone died does not make it a chronological event to have happened before the next passages. The Word is like that often and one does not be sloppy about such claims if they want to be a real, true, honest scholar of the Word of God.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Genesis is history. And Jasher contains thus says the Lord statements.

Utter nonsense. The Gospels are inspired and do not contradict anywhere. You on the other hand contradict yourself all the time. Your stories and theories are utter foolishness, from your floating Garden of Eden to your slandering of the gospels.
.

Yes, the Gospels are "inspired" but history, and men wrote them as their own witness to the Gospel of Jesus, and they are true, but they do not agree on details that skeptics note and make much scoffing about, but in a court of Law, their own eyewitness accounts would stand scrutiny, because no one says every detail the same unless they are reading a script.


Now do you know if there were one blind men or two when Bartimeus was healed?
Do you know if there were two demoniacs of the Gadarenes or one, when Jesus cast out the demons that caused the pigs to commit suicide?
See? There really were two demoniacs, but one Gospel account only says one, and there really were two blind men healed, but two Gospel accounts only say one, and that is the same Way with Genesis and Jasher.. They do not contradict, but there is more information in the history than in the Torah, on purpose.
Jasher fills in details that Genesis does not need to go over again, taking one from point A to point C, without stopping at point B, because it was already written and does not need to be rewritten for the Torah.

Do not say I am making claims that I am not, and you are taking the claims out of your own mind, and not mine, so cease or else be exposed for a lack of true knowledge of such things as that.

If I may so say, I have walked with the LORD for 45 years this year, and am in my 67th year at this time, and the Word of God is my delight and love, after Jesus, my husband, my children and grandchildren.
I love it and read it have an intelligent mind that picks up discrepancies and want them answered.
Jesus saved me before I read the Bible, but I always wanted to know the answers to my questions after I began reading it daily, and He has given me much more than I can even put down, and is always showing me more -I love it, but not all do love it or want discrepencies answered.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Genesis is history. And Jasher contains thus says the Lord statements.

Genesis -and the entire 5 books of Torah, was written by direct command of YHWH, to Moses.

So Jasher has some words that YHWH says, so what? They were not said to lay a teaching down for all men like Genesis was, but were history, like Job is. YHWH speaks to men today as He did in the historical recordings, and we do not claim to make what He said to us "Bible" for all others to say and do. It wouldn's apply.
But when there are Thus saith YHWH applications in Jasher that are part of Torah, then they are there for all of us to learn by and for it to be for us [in Torah].

Moses wrote the Torah under divine inspiration and every jot and tittle has a reason for being in the exact place it is in.
Histories are not written like that, though God speaks to men whose histories are recorded.
Isaiah and all the prophets are written the same, with every jot and tittle specific to the book in placement. God ordered the writing, and all will be fulfilled.
Not so with Ezra and Nehemiah, they are also histories written by men, and we learn by them, and they are true, but they are not "Thus saith YHWH" for our instruction and divine application.

 

[Calminian]

If you had honestly researched the Book of Jasher for yourself instead of looking up and pasting from this: An Overview of the Book of Jasher, then We could have an honest go at resolving any questions you may have, but since they are not honestly your own and you got them from someone else, by pasting instead of honest research, the debate would be dishonest and I am not inclined to write a book to refute another book with you as the middle man, doing no honest research of your own, using a site which is in much error by its author's own ignorance of what is said, when, and where, and how the real Book of Jasher does not in any way contradict one thing in the Torah, but rather complements it and also enlightens us as to what the history is of the times before Israel entered Canaan......

So since he read an article on the book you believe in and cited the sources, you are saying he is dishonest? Do you have any idea how dishonest an accusation that is?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So since he read an article on the book you believe in and cited the sources, you are saying he is dishonest? Do you have any idea how dishonest an accusation that is?

He did not post honest self reserach and[pasted from a site which he did not give the link to.
I have often found people who want to dismiss Enoch or Jasher by going to look up the con sites and coming back with tomes written against, which is not honest research, and they may or may not post the link they got it from.
How honest is it to post someone's else's books against what I am writing when the research is not even done by oneself or proven by oneself?
The site did sloppy work and I showed they did.
Am I to refute the entire site by writing tomes to answer their tomes, or are we to have personal conversations about honest issues?

 

[Calminian]

He did not post honest self reserach and[pasted from a site which he did not give the link to.....

So? What's wrong with looking at other peoples writings and research? You write all kinds of crazy things. Are you saying no one should read it?

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Jasher 81:3-4 claims that the Israelites sojourned in Egypt for 210 years whereas the Scripture repeatedly say it was 430 years.
Paul

Well, I did the Genesis check, and the Scriptures show 210 years, and Paul also agrees,
Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born -Check!
Isaac was 60 when Jacob was born. -Check!
Jacob was 130 when he entered Egypt. Check!



130 + 60 = 190 years already, since Abraham was 100 at Isaac's birth, before they even entered Egypt!

But when was the promise made?

Paul said The promise was made 430 years before the Law was
given.

The promise was made before Ishmael or Isaac were born.

190 years after Isaac is born, Israel enters Egypt.

Jacob is 130 years old, and Joseph rules Egypt until he is 110, for 71 more years after Israel enters the land.

Israel is not oppressed for four hundred years.
Stephen said they were "oppressed 400 years". Stephen was wrong.
Genesis, Paul and Jasher are correct and agree.

Lots of people have worked over the numbers and found that indeed, Israel was in Egypt for 210 years, but why do people have to work so hard adding up the numbers of years here a little and there a little when the Book of Jasher has it all laid out in chronological order for us, and does indeed corroborate with Genesis -and with Paul, but not with Stephen.

Since Moses is the son of the daughter of Levi, it would really make it hard to find 338 years from Moses age of 82 to Israel entering Egypt, and then to find the other 30 years to boot, to fit with the error of 400 years oppressed and then to try to take that back to the promise Abraham received would make it totally impossible to add up.
Jasher makes it simple.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

So? What's wrong with looking at other peoples writings and research? You write all kinds of crazy things. Are you saying no one should read it?

Nothing if you want to just paste other's work.
That work that was pasted is in error, and I showed it to be so.
I've seen it before here and I do not come here to write tomes on other's errors to refute them from here, through middle men.


I do my own research and expect others who post to also do their own instead of parroting others as if they can believe others, but not me, when I do the work for myself that they do not do and I show credible reasons for why I believe what I believe.

I'm willing to look at any argument that is honest, and from the person who is interested, but not just to write tomes against other's works through middle men.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Exodus also says the sojourning of Ben Israel was 430 years - counting the sojourning from the promise to that time, as Paul makes clear in Galations that the promise was 430 years before the Law.

But that Exodus passage counts them as the children still in Abraham's loins from the time of the promise, for the name, Israel, was given to them later, but they were the children who had been promised, while yet in Abraham's loins, that they would come back to Canaan and possess it [Hbr 7:5-10]





They came out of Egypt in the fourth generation, and they were oppressed only after Joseph died, who died age 110, and who was 39 when Israel entered Egypt, and 30 when he came to the throne.
For 71 years in Egypt, Israel was prospering and blessed and increasing in numbers, then Joseph died and things changed.
Moses was born 57 years after Joseph died.
So in 57 years, Israel had gone from prosperity to being slaves oppressed peoples, and 82 years later, they departed Egypt.

 

[pshun2404]

See , if you would do your own research you would see that the site you paste from is lying in ignorance or deceived and passing deception, but at any rate, they are not Bible scholars, and you are not being a good Berean by not checking them out, for Isaac did not die until he was 180 years old, so let's see how very sloppy your site is in "proving all things" and just making up things to refute that which they do not know:

Jacob was born when Isaac was 60 -Check!
Jacob was 130 when he entered Egypt -Check!
Isaac died ten years before Jacob entered Egypt -Check

Joseph was sold when he was 17 -check
Joseph was 39 years old when Jacob entered Egypt -Check
Isaac died when Joseph was 29 years old and one year before Joseph was set on the throne in Egypt -Check


Gen 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac [was] threescore years old when she bare them.

Gen 35:28 And the days of Isaac were an hundred and fourscore years.
Genesis 47: 7-9 And Joseph brought in Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh: and Jacob blessed Pharaoh
And Pharaoh said unto Jacob, How old [art] thou?
And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage [are] an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage.

Because the Word mentions someone died does not make it a chronological event to have happened before the next passages. The Word is like that often and one does not be sloppy about such claims if they want to be a real, true, honest scholar of the Word of God.

I am sorry I am not a better berean (I am often more careful). I am told there are three apocryphal so-called "book of Yasher"s (actually two and both have been edited), which one are you reading and where can I find it...And yes some (allegedly) Christian information sites ARE apparently replete with lies and misinformation (sad isn't it? And they claim to be His children...I will be more diligent although this is a discussion forum I did not see where you have proved your case even remotely)...so you may be correct about that section of the info, the rest came from the places like Jewish Encyclopedia, but even if some of what Shuab says is incorrect according to the Yasher you are reading, that does not mean Yasher IS the biblical Yasher or correct or canonical.

So what is your Yasher and where can I find it...so I can compare for myself.

Thanks

Paul

 

[pshun2404]

They came out of Egypt in the fourth generation, and they were oppressed only after Joseph died, who died age 110, and who was 39 when Israel entered Egypt, and 30 when he came to the throne.
For 71 years in Egypt, Israel was prospering and blessed and increasing in numbers, then Joseph died and things changed.
Moses was born 57 years after Joseph died.
So in 57 years, Israel had gone from prosperity to being slaves oppressed peoples, and 82 years later, they departed Egypt.

Hogwash! Repeating it does not make it so.

Paul

 

[pshun2404]

Okay...I checked....So....

Shaub said

Jasher 13:5 says that Abram went to the land of Canaan at the age of 50 then back to Haran and back to Canaan at age 75, Genesis 12:4 states that Abram was 75 when he departed Haran.

Sepher ha’Yasher says “5 Arise now, take thy wife and all belonging to thee and go to the land of Canaan and remain there, and I will there be unto thee for a God, and I will bless thee. And Abram rose and took his wife and all belonging to him, and he went to the land of Canaan as the Lord had told him; and Abram was fifty years old when he went from Haran.”

Shuab is correct.

Jasher 18:9 states that one of the angels tells Abraham that Sarah will have a son, but Gen. 17:16 says that God told Abraham (after the third century most Rabbis did not believe YHVH would ever come on the flesh because they had been so influenced as to believe spirit = good and flesh = evil…a sadly gnostic distortion but necessary to deny Moshiach’s deity). The Torah tells us that YHVH sent the two angels to Sodom to rain fire and brimstone down upon them from YHVH in heaven but this makes YHVH Who is manifest in the flesh in the tent of Abraham a mere angel (not even the Angel of the LORD who is the YHVH of Exodus 3)

Verse 4 says “4 And the Lord appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him…” this disagrees with the LXX, the pre and post Masoretic, and all of the Targumim…then in verse 9 Yasher says “ 9 And when they had done eating one of them said to him, I will return to thee according to the time of life, and Sarah thy wife shall have a son.”

Shaub is again correct!

Jasher 22:44-45 says the Lord got the idea of presenting Isaac as an offering from Isaacs boast to Ishmael. We know, of course, that God is sovereign and as it says in Gen. 22:1-2 & 12 that the Lord was testing Abraham.

Yasher says “43 And Isaac answered Ishmael, saying, Why dost thou boast to me about this, about a little bit of thy flesh which thou didst take from thy body, concerning which the Lord commanded thee?

44 As the Lord liveth, the God of my father Abraham, if the Lord should say unto my father, Take now thy son Isaac and bring him up an offering before me, I would not refrain but I would joyfully accede to it. 45 And the Lord heard the word that Isaac spoke to Ishmael, and it seemed good in the sight of the Lord, and he thought to try Abraham in this matter.”

And alas Shuab is again correct!

Genesis 28:5 states that Isaac sent Jacob to Padan-aram unto Laban, but Jasher 29:11 says that he fled to the house of Eber and hid there for 14 years.

Yasher says “11 And Jacob was very much afraid of his brother Esau, and he rose up and fled to the house of Eber the son of Shem, and he concealed himself there on account of his brother, and Jacob was sixty-three years old when he went forth from the land of Canaan from Hebron, and Jacob was concealed in Eber's house fourteen years on account of his brother Esau, and he there continued to learn the ways of the Lord and his commandments.”

Shuab is again correct.

Jasher 47:9 says Isaac dies, according to the chronology of Jasher, Joseph was in Egypt but in Gen. 35:29 Isaac died before Joseph even had his dreams.
Yasher has Joseph captured and in Egypt in chapter 46 and then has Isaac die in chapter 47, again shaub is correct.

Simeon could not be bound in Jasher 51:37 but in Genesis. 42:24 Simeon is bound before their eyes.

Do I really need to show you? Shaub is correct again….he was correct in all he said....

Did you try and trap me with deception? Hmmm? As a good berean I took your advice and looked at each verse in the Sepher ha’Yashar and they all say exactly what Shuab points out…my apologies to this scholar and to my Lord for the false witness against Shuab that your comment provoked in my heart. May the Lord have mercy on us all (and He does. Praise His Holy name).

In His love

Paul

 

[yeshuasavedme]

I am sorry I am not a better berean (I am often more careful). I am told there are three apocryphal so-called "book of Yasher"s (actually two and both have been edited), which one are you reading and where can I find it...And yes some (allegedly) Christian information sites ARE apparently replete with lies and misinformation (sad isn't it? And they claim to be His children...I will be more diligent although this is a discussion forum I did not see where you have proved your case even remotely)...so you may be correct about that section of the info, the rest came from the places like Jewish Encyclopedia, but even if some of what Shuab says is incorrect according to the Yasher you are reading, that does not mean Yasher IS the biblical Yasher or correct or canonical.

So what is your Yasher and where can I find it...

Thanks

Paul

Hello,
I am sorry I felt so deeply about having a tome of writing that was outside of your own research because I have been through this so many times on this board.
You seem like a really nice person, and sincere, but to take other's word for something -even mine- without proving it to yourself just leaves one blank and not filled in on what the discussion is really about....
I have done my research, and I have proved to myself that the Upright Record is true history, and that there is not one thing in it that contradicts the Torah record, but rather that they compliment one another and gaps are filled in by the history and some things are hurried over in Jasher, because they were dealt with more in Genesis.

I consider Torah to be written under divine guidance, with every jot and tittle placed where they are for God's divine purposes. But even at that, men do not always get the message and mis-interpret and cause themselves harm -and sometimes harm to others.

I did read to refresh myself in Jasher this morning, and check again with Exodus, comparing, and read for so long that I forgot my poor chickens and they had to be locked up in the coop 40 minutes after they would have liked to be out, and missed the early morning worms. I felt bad for the poor hens cause I was not a good chicken-mama to take care of their needs today, but they'll forgive me as they get extra treats from me all day.
I said that to say that I get totally involved in the stories when I am reading, always discovering new things to praise God for, when I read.
Last night I thought about the wonderful correlation with Torah and with Paul in Jasher 75, proving the promise was 430 years before the exodus, and I was thinking about that promise to Abraham, in that his seed would return after 400 years....so the promise of return after 400 years began with the seed, Isaac, and that was 30 years after the promise, but in Jasher, in the 180th year of Israel going down into Egypt, a group of 30,000 Ephraimites decided that the time was up from Abraham's promise to be delivered, and they took it upon themselves to depart a full 30 years before the LORD had decreed, and they all lost their lives but for 10 of them who escaped!

They were reckoning from the time of the promise, itself, 400 years before, to Abraham, but Abraham's promise of the Exodus was to start from his seed -Isaac- which was 30 years after the promise, and 400 years before the Exodus, which was 430 years from the promise to the Law!

Once again, Jasher proves to have the correct Record, correlating perfectly with Torah and with Paul, for the promise did begin to count down the years before the seed of Abraham would return to inherit the Land from the birth of the first seed of promise, which was Isaac.

75:1,2
At that time, in the hundred and eightieth year of the Israelites going down into Egypt, there went forth from Egypt valiant men, thirty thousand on foot, from the children of Israel, who were all of the tribe of Joseph, of the children of Ephraim the son of Joseph.
For they said the period was completed which the Lord had appointed to the children of Israel in the times of old, which he had spoken to Abraham....


75:16,17
And they smote all the children of Ephraim, all who had gone forth from Egypt, none were remaining but ten men who had run away from the engagement.
For this evil was from the Lord against the children of Ephraim, for they transgressed the word of the Lord in going forth from Egypt, before the period had arrived which the Lord in the days of old had appointed to Israel.

Jasher Chapter 7 - The Book of Jasher Published by J.H. Parry & Company 1887

And ccel has it The Real Book of Jasher?

When you find something in Jasher that seems to not agree with Torah, check Torah and see if it is just something that is redacted out of Torah for a shorter version. There are lots of places where the events in Torah are redacted greatly -and the Bible is like that all through, in that we have Jesus' first coming and His second all in one verse in Isaiah, but for two purposes: redemption and judgment; but there is a gap of over 2,000 years between the two parts of the verse, and we did not know it until Jesus came the first time for Atonement, and departed to heaven to return to fulfill the second part of the verse after over two thousand years -or in two thousand years, for the 2,000 is up in 2034.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Okay...I checked....So....

Shaub said

Jasher 13:5 says that Abram went to the land of Canaan at the age of 50 then back to Haran and back to Canaan at age 75, Genesis 12:4 states that Abram was 75 when he departed Haran.

Sepher ha’Yasher says “5 Arise now, take thy wife and all belonging to thee and go to the land of Canaan and remain there, and I will there be unto thee for a God, and I will bless thee. And Abram rose and took his wife and all belonging to him, and he went to the land of Canaan as the Lord had told him; and Abram was fifty years old when he went from Haran.”

Shuab is correct.

Jasher 18:9 states that one of the angels tells Abraham that Sarah will have a son, but Gen. 17:16 says that God told Abraham (after the third century most Rabbis did not believe YHVH would ever come on the flesh because they had been so influenced as to believe spirit = good and flesh = evil…a sadly gnostic distortion but necessary to deny Moshiach’s deity). The Torah tells us that YHVH sent the two angels to Sodom to rain fire and brimstone down upon them from YHVH in heaven but this makes YHVH Who is manifest in the flesh in the tent of Abraham a mere angel (not even the Angel of the LORD who is the YHVH of Exodus 3)

Verse 4 says “4 And the Lord appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him…” this disagrees with the LXX, the pre and post Masoretic, and all of the Targumim…then in verse 9 Yasher says “ 9 And when they had done eating one of them said to him, I will return to thee according to the time of life, and Sarah thy wife shall have a son.”

Shaub is again correct!

Jasher 22:44-45 says the Lord got the idea of presenting Isaac as an offering from Isaacs boast to Ishmael. We know, of course, that God is sovereign and as it says in Gen. 22:1-2 & 12 that the Lord was testing Abraham.

Yasher says “43 And Isaac answered Ishmael, saying, Why dost thou boast to me about this, about a little bit of thy flesh which thou didst take from thy body, concerning which the Lord commanded thee?

44 As the Lord liveth, the God of my father Abraham, if the Lord should say unto my father, Take now thy son Isaac and bring him up an offering before me, I would not refrain but I would joyfully accede to it. 45 And the Lord heard the word that Isaac spoke to Ishmael, and it seemed good in the sight of the Lord, and he thought to try Abraham in this matter.”

And alas Shuab is again correct!

Genesis 28:5 states that Isaac sent Jacob to Padan-aram unto Laban, but Jasher 29:11 says that he fled to the house of Eber and hid there for 14 years.

Yasher says “11 And Jacob was very much afraid of his brother Esau, and he rose up and fled to the house of Eber the son of Shem, and he concealed himself there on account of his brother, and Jacob was sixty-three years old when he went forth from the land of Canaan from Hebron, and Jacob was concealed in Eber's house fourteen years on account of his brother Esau, and he there continued to learn the ways of the Lord and his commandments.”

Shuab is again correct.

Jasher 47:9 says Isaac dies, according to the chronology of Jasher, Joseph was in Egypt but in Gen. 35:29 Isaac died before Joseph even had his dreams.
Yasher has Joseph captured and in Egypt in chapter 46 and then has Isaac die in chapter 47, again shaub is correct.

Simeon could not be bound in Jasher 51:37 but in Genesis. 42:24 Simeon is bound before their eyes.

Do I really need to show you? Shaub is correct again….he was correct in all he said....

Did you try and trap me with deception? Hmmm? As a good berean I took your advice and looked at each verse in the Sepher ha’Yashar and they all say exactly what Shuab points out…my apologies to this scholar and to my Lord for the false witness against Shuab that your comment provoked in my heart. May the Lord have mercy on us all (and He does. Praise His Holy name).

In His love

Paul

Oh dear! My apologies for saying you seem like a nice person -but you probably really are, you just got a bit confused....
Now you said you checked, but indeed, you only checked the one verses from the site, and the ones seeming to prove him correct, which is not in context to the whole matter, nor timeline, and there are many good Rabbi's who do not agree with your Rabbi's assertions for I have read them, but let's not let this be a "this Rabbi said this", or" that Rabbi said that", but "what does the Word say, and how does that compare to the whole together, which is written in the Upright Record".
So go read the entire stories and not just the passages in a narrow strip that seem to say what the guy wants you to think.

I already did this one for you -but you seem to have missed it and did not go check it for yourself:

Jasher 47:9 says Isaac dies, according to the chronology of Jasher, Joseph was in Egypt but in Gen. 35:29 Isaac died before Joseph even had his dreams.
Yasher has Joseph captured and in Egypt in chapter 46 and then has Isaac die in chapter 47, again shaub is correct.

Isaac did not die until he was 180 years old. Please go prove that for yourself, from Torah, and stop listening to the rabbi who wants to change history and Genesis to something it does not say.

That Genesis mentions the death of Issac in chapter 35 does not make him dead before the events which are recorded in Genesis after that, and Genesis proves that to be the case and Genesis often mentions a fact that has no chronological connection to that which is written after which actually happened before -I reposted the facts from Torah below:

Isaac was 180 when he died
Jacob was born when Isaac was 60
Jacob entered Egypt when he was 130 years old -do the math.
130 years Jacob and the 60 years added for Isaac's age when Jacob was born makes 190 years. Therefore: Isaac died 10 years before Jacob entered Egypt.

When Jacob entered Egypt, Joseph was 39 years old, so Isaac died when Joseph was 29 years old, and Joseph had his dreams when he was 17 years old, and Isaac was alive when Joseph had his dreams and lived for another 12 years after that!
So when Isaac came to comfort Jacob over his presumed loss of Joseph, Isaac was 168 years old!

...

Jacob was born when Isaac was 60 -Check!
Jacob was 130 when he entered Egypt -Check!
Isaac died ten years before Jacob entered Egypt -Check

Joseph was sold when he was 17 -check
Joseph was 39 years old when Jacob entered Egypt -Check
Isaac died when Joseph was 29 years old and one year before Joseph was set on the throne in Egypt -Check


Gen 25:26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel; and his name was called Jacob: and Isaac [was] threescore years old when she bare them.

Gen 35:28 And the days of Isaac were an hundred and fourscore years.
Genesis 47: 7-9 And Joseph brought in Jacob his father, and set him before Pharaoh: and Jacob blessed Pharaoh
And Pharaoh said unto Jacob, How old [art] thou?
And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage [are] an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage.

Because the Word mentions someone died does not make it a chronological event to have happened before the next passages. The Word is like that often and one does not be sloppy about such claims if they want to be a real, true, honest scholar of the Word of God.

 

[ChetSinger]

Jasher 18:9 states that one of the angels tells Abraham that Sarah will have a son, but Gen. 17:16 says that God told Abraham (after the third century most Rabbis did not believe YHVH would ever come on the flesh because they had been so influenced as to believe spirit = good and flesh = evil…a sadly gnostic distortion but necessary to deny Moshiach’s deity). The Torah tells us that YHVH sent the two angels to Sodom to rain fire and brimstone down upon them from YHVH in heaven but this makes YHVH Who is manifest in the flesh in the tent of Abraham a mere angel (not even the Angel of the LORD who is the YHVH of Exodus 3)

Verse 4 says “4 And the Lord appeared to him in the plain of Mamre, and sent three of his ministering angels to visit him…” this disagrees with the LXX, the pre and post Masoretic, and all of the Targumim…then in verse 9 Yasher says “ 9 And when they had done eating one of them said to him, I will return to thee according to the time of life, and Sarah thy wife shall have a son.”

Shaub is again correct!

Wow, thanks for that. I looked up the passage in Jasher myself to confirm it.

In the Torah's account you'd conclude that one of the men was YHWH himself. But in the Jasher version of this event all of them are called angels. And it even takes away YHWH's words and gives them to an angel.

This is a strong indication to me that the Jasher version was penned (at the earliest) after the Hadrianic war, when the rabbis began changing their theology in response to the rise of Christianity.

Jasher is clearly modifying the Torah's text, in this case to the detriment of Christianity. The Torah's version of this passage has been taught by multiple church fathers as a bodily appearance of the pre-incarnate Christ. But if you read the Jasher account, that's not possible.

This passage in the book of Jasher will point people away from Christ, not toward him.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

...

This passage in the book of Jasher will point people away from Christ, not toward him.

Nope, that is an opinion strongly refuted in all of the history account itself, in fact, Jasher is simply history of the Upright OR the Upright Record.


So ChetSinger,
Can you be consistent in your conclusions and apply them to Torah and to the prophets, when one points out that the LORD Himself, YHWH of hosts, was whom Jacob wrestled with in Genesis 32, who invoked His own formerly secret [New Man -to come] name over Jacob.
Now Torah says Jacob wrestled with a man/ish.
Torah says the ish was an angel of the LORD.

Jacob said that He had seen the face of God, and lived, and named that place "Penuel/Face of God.

Now Hosea 12:3 says that the One whom Jacob wrestled with was none other than YHWH of hosts.
'Splain that one and be consistent.

Jasher says a man/ish wrestled with Jacob
Torah says a man/ish wrestled with Jacob.

Jasher 32:48 And when he passed all belonging to him over the brook, Jacob was left by himself, and a man met him, and he wrestled with him that night until the breaking of the day, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint through wrestling with him.
And at the break of day the man left Jacob there, and he blessed him and went away, and Jacob passed the brook at the break of day, and he halted upon his thigh.

But Torah puts more detail in the passage of who that angel was -"the face of God", and Hosea says that One was YHWH of hosts, but Torah only says "the Angel of the Face of God" -whose name [Israel -Isaiah 49], was invoked over Jacob ever after, from that point.

There are lots and lots of such passages in the Word of God where "the LORD says...", but He speaks through His holy angels, or His servants the prophets -or through a donkey, or through His forces of nature and so on and so forth.

In fact, when God commanded the earth to bring forth the beasts and creepy crawlies in pairs, the earth brought them forth, but God made them -splain that!
When God commanded the waters to bring forth the sea life and fowls to fly in the air, in pairs, the waters brought them forth, but God made them -splain that, using the same application as above in your post




Hsa 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Hsa 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him [in] Bethel, and there he spake with us; Hsa 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD [is] his memorial.

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Nope, that is an opinion strongly refuted in all of the history account itself, in fact, Jasher is simply history of the Upright OR the Upright Record.


So ChetSinger,
Can you be consistent in your conclusions and apply them to Torah and to the prophets, when one points out that the LORD Himself, YHWH of hosts, was whom Jacob wrestled with in Genesis 32, who invoked His own formerly secret [New Man -to come] name over Jacob.
Now Torah says Jacob wrestled with a man/ish.
Torah says the ish was an angel of the LORD.

Jacob said that He had seen the face of God, and lived, and named that place "Penuel/Face of God.

Now Hosea 12:3 says that the One whom Jacob wrestled with was none other than YHWH of hosts.
'Splain that one and be consistent.

Jasher says a man/ish wrestled with Jacob
Torah says a man/ish wrestled with Jacob.

Jasher 32:48 And when he passed all belonging to him over the brook, Jacob was left by himself, and a man met him, and he wrestled with him that night until the breaking of the day, and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint through wrestling with him.
And at the break of day the man left Jacob there, and he blessed him and went away, and Jacob passed the brook at the break of day, and he halted upon his thigh.

But Torah puts more detail in the passage of who that angel was -"the face of God", and Hosea says that One was YHWH of hosts, but Torah only says "the Angel of the Face of God" -whose name [Israel -Isaiah 49], was invoked over Jacob ever after, from that point.

There are lots and lots of such passages in the Word of God where "the LORD says...", but He speaks through His holy angels, or His servants the prophets -or through a donkey, or through His forces of nature and so on and so forth.

In fact, when God commanded the earth to bring forth the beasts and creepy crawlies in pairs, the earth brought them forth, but God made them -splain that!
When God commanded the waters to bring forth the sea life and fowls to fly in the air, in pairs, the waters brought them forth, but God made them -splain that, using the same application as above in your post




Hsa 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
Hsa 12:4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him [in] Bethel, and there he spake with us; Hsa 12:5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD [is] his memorial.

ChetSinger,

More inconsistencies in your way of applying the Word are found in Solomon's Temple.
Solomon built the temple, but Solomon did not build it by his own person and labor of his hands. It is "Solomon's Temple", and "Solomon built it", but in fact, Solomon never laid his hand to the labor -but maybe to "christen the project in dedication to YHWH" at some ceremonial service before-hand...

Did Solomon build the temple or did others build the temple?
The record of the Tenach tells us that Solomon hired many strangers and many Israeli's to build the temple and all the vessels for it. But the record also says "Solomon built the temple" and Solomon made the vessels", when we know he hired it all out.
Be consistent and not so quick to dismiss on the seeming contradictions that are no different that the Torah and Tenach have within their pages, and both are correct, but the context is easily understood by an understanding mind -but not to blinded minds.

 

[Calminian]

Oh dear! My apologies for saying you seem like a nice person -but you probably really are, you just got a bit confused........

Probably the most ironic of all recent statements on this forum.

 

[ChetSinger]

Nope, that is an opinion strongly refuted in all of the history account itself, in fact, Jasher is simply history of the Upright OR the Upright Record.

The conclusion of various church fathers is that in Genesis 18 Abraham is meeting with God in the flesh. For example, here's Justin Martyr:

Therefore, Moshe, the blessed and faithful servant of God, declares that he who appeared to Avraham by the oak in Mamre simultaneously with the two angels in his company, is God, having been sent for the judgment upon Sedom by Another who eternally dwells in the supercelestial places, and never appears, holding personal intercourse with none, whom we believe is the Maker and Father of all things.

There are good reasons for this. One is that Genesis states that after the men left to go to Sodom, "Abraham still stood before YHWH". And when the men arrived at Sodom, there were only two instead of three. The implication was obvious to the church fathers: YHWH was the third man.

All that is scrubbed clean in the Jasher account. It has the marks of tampering by anti-Christian Jews who wanted to prevent the third man from being identified as the pre-incarnate Christ.

Your forum name is "yeshuasavedme". That's a nice name. How do you feel about Yeshua being scrubbed out of one of his most famous OT passages? Just how important is the "Book of Jasher" to you?

This leads me to a question: how old is the oldest manuscript of the "Book of Jasher" currently in our possession? I'm going to guess it's well after the Hadrianic war. Am I right?

 

[Calminian]

The conclusion of various church fathers is that in Genesis 18 Abraham is meeting with God in the flesh. For example, here's Justin Martyr:



There are good reasons for this. One is that Genesis states that after the men left to go to Sodom, "Abraham still stood before YHWH". And when the men arrived at Sodom, there were only two instead of three. The implication was obvious to the church fathers: YHWH was the third man.

All that is scrubbed clean in the Jasher account. It has the marks of tampering by anti-Christian Jews who wanted to prevent the third man from being identified as the pre-incarnate Christ.

Your forum name is "yeshuasavedme". That's a nice name. How do you feel about Yeshua being scrubbed out of one of his most famous OT passages? Just how important is the "Book of Jasher" to you?

This leads me to a question: how old is the oldest manuscript of the "Book of Jasher" currently in our possession? I'm going to guess it's well after the Hadrianic war. Am I right?

Very interesting I do recall that part, now, as was wondering about that at the time. Josephus (non-inspired historian) from his historical sources actually acknowledged that God was speaking.

Antiq. 1:196 (1.11.2) When God had thus resolved concerning the Sodomites, Abraham, as he sat by the oak of Mambre, at the door of his tent, saw three angels; and, thinking them to be strangers, he rose up and saluted them, and desired they would accept of an entertainment, and abide with him; 197 (1.11.2) to which when they agreed, he ordered cakes of meal to be made presently: and when he had slain a calf, he roasted it, and brought it to them, as they sat under the oak. Now they made a show of eating; and besides, they asked him about his wife Sarah, where she was; and when he said she was within, they said they would come again hereafter, and find her become a mother. 198 (1.11.2) Upon which the woman laughed, and said that it was impossible she should bear children, since she was ninety years of age, and her husband was an hundred. Then they concealed themselves no longer, but declared that they were angels of God; and that one of them was sent to inform them about the child, and two of the overthrow of Sodom.

Antiq. 1:199 (1.11.3) When Abraham heard this, he was grieved for the Sodomites; and he rose up, and besought God for them, and entreated him that he would not destroy the righteous with the wicked. 200 (1.11.3) And when God had replied that there was no good man among the Sodomites; for if there were but ten such men among them, he would not punish any of them for their sins, Abraham held his peace.​

Now he does call them angels in the beginning of the encounter, but in fairness the Torah also calls this theophany the Angel of YHWH. But Josephus clearly acknowledges God Himself was speaking to Moses. This tells me the ancient jews understood very well what the Torah was saying in this passage. If Jasher missed this, I don't see how it's possible to see this as an account written by Moses (as some claim).

At the very best, it's be a non-inspired ancient work. At worst, AD midrash fiction.