• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Corroborating Genesis, Book of Jasher, and Stephen's Speech

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There are several problems in the historical accuracy of Stephen's speech in Acts 6, because they are got from a corrupted record that does not agree with Genesis, and Genesis does agree with the Book of the Upright/ Upright Record, -commonly called the Book of Jasher.

On a couple of other threads, a poster makes claims that the Book of Jasher is not correct, in that Stephen contradicts it, but that is not true, and Stephen contradicts Genesis.

Stephen's account and the Genesis account do not agree.
That does not make Stephen's martyrdom any less value, nor his faith any less than it is, and of specific note by Jesus, at his death. Stephen was welcomed into heaven by the LORD Himself, but Stephen's history does not agree with the Torah account in the same way that Peter believed a fable about not associating with the Gentiles from another faulty record which some Jews believed and which Jesus did not correct until he let the sheet down with the unclean animals, so as to teach Peter and set him free from a false belief.


Why is this important? Because the history book, the "Book of the Upright", or "Upright Record" does agree with the Genesis account and gives us many more details that Stephen was not privy to, in the record he did read.

We can check it for ourselves if we will, but a poster on the other threads was not willing to do so, even when they were laid out in front of him -he ran away from checking it out for himself.
This is to lay it out for interested parties so that they can see for themselves, and many errors can then be corrected.
To be clear, I do not believe the Book of Jasher is "inspired", but is true history. I also do not believe any of the histories are inspired.

Inspired is "Thus saith YHWH". Histories are histories; writings are writings; wisdom is wisdom; and prose is prose.



Acts 7:
5 ... But even when Abraham had no child, He promised to give it to him for a possession, and to his descendants after him. 6 But God spoke in this way: that his descendants would dwell in a foreign land, and that they would bring them into bondage and oppress them four hundred years. 7 ‘And the nation to whom they will be in bondage I will judge,’ said God, ‘and after that they shall come out and serve Me in this place....

Was Israel oppressed four hundred years, according to Genesis? No!


They were oppressed after Joseph died, beginning little by little, until they were led out by Moses when he was 82 years old.

Now to begin, Moses' mother was Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, born to him in Egypt. Jochebed was born at the gates of Egypt, the true history says -and many other of the Jewish histories do state the same.
Num 26:59 And the name of Amram's wife [was] Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom [her mother] bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.

So Levi is in Egypt, and Jochebed, Moses' mother, is born -and Miriam is listed after Moses, though she is born before Moses, being his caretaker watching over him in the river: the same as Nahor and Haran are listed after Abram, in Genesis, though they were born before Terah was 70, and Abram born when he was 70, and also like Shem was born after Japheth, his elder brother, as Genesis says in one place, but listed before him, in a Genesis record.
Joseph was on the throne ruling Egypt when Israel entered, and they had it good all the days Joseph ruled, under the Pharaoh who turned it over to Joseph.

Joseph was 17 when he entered Egypt, one year in Potipher's house, 12 years in prison, and 30 years old when he was set on the throne under Pharaoh.

Israel came into Egypt when Joseph was 39.
Seventy one years after Israel came into Egypt, Joseph died.
Joseph died at age 110 Genesis 50:26
Joseph ruled Egypt 80 years.

Jacob was 130 when he came into Egypt Genesis 47:9
Jacob died age 147, after 17 years in Egypt Genesis 47:28
Jochebed, Moses mother was the daughter of Levi, born in Egypt to Levi when Levi entered the gates of Egypt.


Num 26:59 And the name of Amram's wife [was] Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom [her mother] bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.

So Joseph died, and another Pharaoh arose who did not know Joseph. It took a bit of time, but by the birth of Miriam, 12 years before Moses, birth, the people were "embittered" which is why Miriam was named "embittered people" from the Hebrew for bitter/grieved, and people.

Now Moses was 82 when he led Israel out, and his mother had been born at the gates of Egypt [when Levi entered] making her 128 when Moses was born.
Israel was in Egypt 210 years. Jochebed was 128 when Moses born.
Moses was 82 when he led them out.

Israel had it good until Joseph died, then a creeping enslavement, beginning when Jochebed was in her 71st year [when Joseph died], until by the time she had Miriam, 45 years later, they were "bitter/grieved people" [Miriam means bitter people].

So all the years Israel was in Egypt add up to 210, in the Genesis record
-and in the Record of the Upright/Jasher- and oppression began with a creep after the 71 years Joseph reigned, after they entered only after Joseph's death.
 
  • Like
Reactions: granpa

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We can labor in Genesis to check the numbers, or we can read the "Upright Record" and check the numbers, or we can check the numbers in places like Torah.org:
Torah.org - The Judaism SiteHow long were the Hebrews in Egypt? How long were they enslaved there?
[FONT=arial, helvetica] The time from the arrival of Jacob and his family in Egypt until the Exodus was only 210 years. The 400 years in Gen.15:13 is from the birth of Isaac until the Exodus. Note that it doesn't say there that Abraham's seed would be "in Egypt" 400 years, but "in a land that is not theirs", and this was true as soon as Isaac (Abraham's seed; see Gen.21:12) was born. Isaac was 60 when Jacob was born (Gen.25:26), and Jacob came to Egypt when he was 130 (Gen.47:9). These 190 years must be subtracted from the 400, leaving 210 (Rashi on Gen.15:13). In Ex. 12:40 the Torah refers to the Hebrews having been in Egypt for 430 years, but this cannot be meant literally, because Levi's son Kehas was one of those who come to Egypt with Jacob (Gen.Ch.46), and the total lifespans of Kehas, Amram, and Moses don't add up to that much (see Ex.Ch.6). The 430 years started even before Isaac was born (when Abraham was 100), and even before Abraham finally left Charan at the age of 75 (Gen. 12:4). The Hebrews weren't mistreated in Egypt until Joseph and his brothers had died. Joseph was 39 when Jacob came to Egypt, and Levi was about 42. Joseph lived to 110 and Levi to 137, so the mistreatment didn't begin for the first 95 (out of 210) years. It was especially severe during the last 80 years, around the time of Moses' birth, when it was decreed that the male children should be killed. The transition from no oppression to severe oppression happened over a 35 year period (95+35+80 =210). [/FONT]


Or we can check Josephus -who was off by only 5 years:
http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-2.htm

[SIZE=+2]CHAPTER 15. [/SIZE]
HOW THE HEBREWS UNDER THE CONDUCT OF MOSES LEFT EGYPT.

2. They left Egypt in the month Xanthicus, on the fifteenth day of the lunar month; four hundred and thirty years after our forefather Abraham came into Canaan, but two hundred and fifteen years only after Jacob removed into Egypt. (28) It was the eightieth year of the age of Moses, and of that of Aaron three more. They also carried out the bones of Joseph with them, as he had charged his sons to do.


[FONT=arial, helvetica][/FONT]
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think that Steven's speech is the most boring bit of the entire bible. can you imaging those people sitting and listening to all that stuff which they already knew. I think it might have been used in the early church, as a teaching text.
The people Stephen spoke to were not bored....they were incensed! and stoned him to death!
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
To be clear, I do not believe the Book of Jasher is "inspired", but is true history. I also do not believe any of the histories are inspired.

Inspired is "Thus saith YHWH". Histories are histories; writings are writings; wisdom is wisdom; and prose is prose.

This is misleading, as you also don't believe Genesis to be inspired either.

The fact is you put Jasher on the same level as Genesis and Acts. That is dangerous and why you come up with strange theories like a floating Garden of Eden.

Now you ask the question, Was Israel oppressed four hundred years, according to Genesis? My answer also is no, and that you are misrepresenting Stephen. Where did Stenphen mention Israel?? And where does he mention that the oppression itself would be 400 years? Let's read carefully.

God spoke to him in this way: ‘Your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own, and they will be enslaved and mistreated four hundred years.​
Who was Stephen speaking of? Jacob? Isaac? No, Abraham and therefore speaking of his seed which began with Isaac.

Let's check out a couple other very literal translations.

And God spake to him, That his seed shall be comeling in an alien land, and they shall make them subject to servage, and shall evil treat them, four hundred years and thirty​

Notice the components Stephen is mentioning. The sojourning of Abraham's seed (starting with Isaac). The subjection of Abraham's seed. And the evil treatment of Abraham's seed. These 3 components together would be 400 years.

That would be starting at the time Isaac was 5 years old, perhaps the time when Ishmael was cast out of Abraham's household. 400 years later we have the Exodus.

I don't see the fuss there. Stehen knew what was going on with Jewish history and knew that Isaac was never enslaved. Thus it's very clear he was speaking of the time from Isaac attaining the status of firstborn, to the Exodus. Instead of impugning Stephen's understanding of history, which seems impeccable, I would question yours.

Now is Jasher inerrant like Genesis? Interestingly, Jasher got the birth time of Abraham wrong in that it thought Terah's genealogy meant to say he was born in Terah's 70th year. This is a common mistake. We know though, that the particular construction of that genealogy in that place doesn't give specifics in the sense of which son was born first. It is not like the previous constructions mentioning Terah, Haran, Serug, Reu, Peleg, etc. It is merely stating that the 3 sons mentioned were born on or after Terah's 70th year. The same is true in Noah's genealogy. It also mentions Noah's 3 sons born after Noah's 500th year. Shem is mentioned first, but we know Japheth was the firstborn, and Shem was born 2 years later (When Noah was 502), from subsequent passage. Terah's genealogy is virtually identical to this revealing that 3 sons were born to him after his 70th year. You assume Abram was born first since he is mentioned first, but he actually was born 60 years after Haran, when Terrah was 130. We know this because in Genesis Abraham left to permanently live in Canaan after Terah died at age 205. The text specifically says Abram was 75 at this time. Simple math, Terrah was 130 at Abram's birth. Stephen rightly confirms this in Acts 7 by affirming that Abram left for Canaan after Terah died.

The moral of this story? Trust the Bible.

Jasher may be a genuine history book based on an ancient manuscript. Then again it may just be fictional hebrew midrash. Regardless, we should always trust the Bible first. Josephus also has a very interesting history book that corroborates Genesis. But where are differences, trust the Bible.

Now for those wanted to look at the issue deeper, I've found this to be the most helpful article on the subject.

How Long Were the Israelites in Egypt?

I find it to be very clear, very concise, complete with a quote from Henry Ainsworth. I'll quote that here, but check out the whole article is isn't very long and frankly doesn't need to be. This is not a difficult issue and certainly not a reason to question Stephen's understanding of history.

Ver. 13. Knowing Know,] That is, know assuredly: see Gen. ii. 17. Not Theirs,] Meaning Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Canaan itself; wherein they were but strangers, Gen. xvii. 8. Psal. cv. 11, 12. and therein afflicted. Gen. xxi. 9. xxvi. 7, 14, 15, &c. but chiefly in Egypt. Four Hundred Years,] Which began when Ishmael, son of Hagar the Egyptian, mocked and persecuted Isaac, Gen. xxi. 9. Gal. iv. 29. which fell out thirty years after the promise, Gen. xii. 3. which promise was four hundred and thirty years before the law, Gal. iii. 17. and four hundred and thirty years after that promise, came Israel out of bondage, Exod. xii. 41. 2 (emphasis added)
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,027
620
✟86,400.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
There are several problems in the historical accuracy of Stephen's speech in Acts 6, because they are got from a corrupted record that does not agree with Genesis, and Genesis does agree with the Book of the Upright/ Upright Record, -commonly called the Book of Jasher.

On a couple of other threads, a poster makes claims that the Book of Jasher is not correct, in that Stephen contradicts it, but that is not true, and Stephen contradicts Genesis.

Stephen's account and the Genesis account do not agree.
That does not make Stephen's martyrdom any less value, nor his faith any less than it is, and of specific note by Jesus, at his death. Stephen was welcomed into heaven by the LORD Himself, but Stephen's history does not agree with the Torah account in the same way that Peter believed a fable about not associating with the Gentiles from another faulty record which some Jews believed and which Jesus did not correct until he let the sheet down with the unclean animals, so as to teach Peter and set him free from a false belief.


Why is this important? Because the history book, the "Book of the Upright", or "Upright Record" does agree with the Genesis account and gives us many more details that Stephen was not privy to, in the record he did read.

We can check it for ourselves if we will, but a poster on the other threads was not willing to do so, even when they were laid out in front of him -he ran away from checking it out for himself.
This is to lay it out for interested parties so that they can see for themselves, and many errors can then be corrected.
To be clear, I do not believe the Book of Jasher is "inspired", but is true history. I also do not believe any of the histories are inspired.

Inspired is "Thus saith YHWH". Histories are histories; writings are writings; wisdom is wisdom; and prose is prose.




Was Israel oppressed four hundred years, according to Genesis? No!


They were oppressed after Joseph died, beginning little by little, until they were led out by Moses when he was 82 years old.

Now to begin, Moses' mother was Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, born to him in Egypt. Jochebed was born at the gates of Egypt, the true history says -and many other of the Jewish histories do state the same.
Joseph was on the throne ruling Egypt when Israel entered, and they had it good all the days Joseph ruled, under the Pharaoh who turned it over to Joseph.

Joseph was 17 when he entered Egypt, one year in Potipher's house, 12 years in prison, and 30 years old when he was set on the throne under Pharaoh.

Israel came into Egypt when Joseph was 39.
Seventy one years after Israel came into Egypt, Joseph died.
Joseph died at age 110 Genesis 50:26
Joseph ruled Egypt 80 years.

Jacob was 130 when he came into Egypt Genesis 47:9
Jacob died age 147, after 17 years in Egypt Genesis 47:28
Jochebed, Moses mother was the daughter of Levi, born in Egypt to Levi when Levi entered the gates of Egypt.


Num 26:59 And the name of Amram's wife [was] Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom [her mother] bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister.

So Joseph died, and another Pharaoh arose who did not know Joseph. It took a bit of time, but by the birth of Miriam, 12 years before Moses, birth, the people were "embittered" which is why Miriam was named "embittered people" from the Hebrew for bitter/grieved, and people.

Now Moses was 82 when he led Israel out, and his mother had been born at the gates of Egypt [when Levi entered] making her 128 when Moses was born.
Israel was in Egypt 210 years. Jochebed was 128 when Moses born.
Moses was 82 when he led them out.

Israel had it good until Joseph died, then a creeping enslavement, beginning when Jochebed was in her 71st year [when Joseph died], until by the time she had Miriam, 45 years later, they were "bitter/grieved people" [Miriam means bitter people].

So all the years Israel was in Egypt add up to 210, in the Genesis record
-and in the Record of the Upright/Jasher- and oppression began with a creep after the 71 years Joseph reigned, after they entered only after Joseph's death.

Sorry you are mistaken...in Genesis 15:13 the scripture reads "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years"...Stephen is merely paraphrasing here in the general context of the greater conversation...indeed this was a prophecy of their experience in Egypt.

Also this modern "Book of Yasher" is NOT the book of Yasher the OT referred to (it no longer exists). This one is the later Jewish apocryphal book translated in 1613 and they use the term Yasher to mean the correct account...it is apocryphal similar to the Book of Jubilees. It was recently translated and claimed to be the true Book referred to in Joshua by the LDS (which right off the bat should tell you you cannot trust it as canonical in any way). And once more Stephen does not contradict Genesis (15:13)...Shalom...and have a blessed paschal season.

In His love

Paul
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is misleading, as you also don't believe Genesis to be inspired either.
That is a slanderous falsehood!

I have never said anything to slander your beliefs in that manner.
If you want to take part in this thread, stop the falsehoods.
 
Upvote 0

hiscosmicgoldfish

Liberal Anglican
Mar 1, 2008
3,592
59
✟19,267.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
Politics
UK-Conservative
The people Stephen spoke to were not bored....they were incensed! and stoned him to death!

when I read it, I thought they wouldn't just sit there listening to the entire torah being gone over again.. priests who had studied all that all their lives, I think it was probably written in later, as a teaching tool for the early church, a waste of space.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sorry you are mistaken...in Genesis 15:13 the scripture reads "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years"...Stephen is merely paraphrasing here in the general context of the greater conversation...indeed this was a prophecy of their experience in Egypt.

In His love

Paul

Hi Paul,
In the same passage you remarked on, YHWH promises to bring Abraham's descendants out in the fourth generation, and taken in context with all other passages, together, and from the original, then YHWH did not say 400 years of affliction, nor was there.
Genesis 15:
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:...
Now God counted the four generations from:
1 Isaac
2 Jacob
3 Levi
4 Moses


Jochebed was Levi's daughter, married to Levi's grandson, because Levi is the father of the daughter who is the mother of Moses, then Moses is counted as the seed of the fourth generation, by YHWH. There are other times in the Word where a generation is counted from the father when a daughter is married to a grandson etc...

And Paul wrote that from the time of the promise was 430 years.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


#1 Paul said "counting the years from the time of the promise to the Law was 430 years".
So let's see:
The promise was given to Abraham when Abraham was X years old


Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born.

Isaac was 60 when Jacob was born
Jacob was 130 when he entered Egypt

That makes 190 years from Isaac's birth to the entry into Egypt.

Israel was in Egypt 210 years.

That means that Abraham was 70 when the promise was given to Abraham -which was after Abraham chased Nimrod and the kings who stole the goods and people and got them back, in Genesis 14.

So what history record says, in agreement with Paul and the Torah -the "inspired Torah" record- that Abraham was 70 when the promise was given? -The Book of Jasher, of course, in complete agreement with Paul and Moses, in Genesis.

Jasher 13, the promise -which Paul reckoned from the time of, to get 430 years:
13: 3 And Abram remained in the land three years, and at the expiration of three years the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him; I am the Lord who brought thee forth from Ur Casdim, and delivered thee from the hands of all thine enemies.

4 And now therefore if thou wilt hearken to my voice and keep my commandments, my statutes and my laws, then will I cause thy enemies to fall before thee, and I will multiply thy seed like the stars of heaven, and I will send my blessing upon all the works of thy hands, and thou shalt lack nothing.

5 Arise now, take thy wife and all belonging to thee and go to the land of Canaan and remain there, and I will there be unto thee for a God, and I will bless thee. And Abram rose and took his wife and all belonging to him, and he went to the land of Canaan as the Lord had told him; and Abram was fifty years old when he went from Haran.

6 And Abram came to the land of Canaan and dwelt in the midst of the city, and he there pitched his tent amongst the children of Canaan, inhabitants of the land.

7 And the Lord appeared to Abram when he came to the land of Canaan, and said to him, This is the land which I gave unto thee and to thy seed after thee forever, and I will make thy seed like the stars of heaven, and I will give unto thy seed for an inheritance all the lands which thou seest.

8 And Abram built an altar in the place where God had spoken to him, and Abram there called upon the name of the Lord.

9 At that time, at the end of three years of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, in that year Noah died, which was the fifty-eighth year of the life of Abram; and all the days that Noah lived were nine hundred and fifty years and he died.

10 And Abram dwelt in the land of Canaan, he, his wife, and all belonging to him, and all those that accompanied him, together with those that joined him from the people of the land; but Nahor, Abram's brother, and Terah his father, and Lot the son of Haran and all belonging to them dwelt in Haran.

11 In the fifth year of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and all the cities of the plain revolted from the power of Chedorlaomer, king of Elam; for all the kings of the cities of the plain had served Chedorlaomer for twelve years, and given him a yearly tax, but in those days in the thirteenth year, they rebelled against him.

12 And in the tenth year of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan there was war between Nimrod king of Shinar and Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Nimrod came to fight with Chedorlaomer and to subdue him.

13 For Chedorlaomer was at that time one of the princes of the hosts of Nimrod, and when all the people at the tower were dispersed and those that remained were also scattered upon the face of the earth, Chedorlaomer went to the land of Elam and reigned over it and rebelled against his lord.

14 And in those days when Nimrod saw that the cities of the plain had rebelled, he came with pride and anger to war with Chedorlaomer, and Nimrod assembled all his princes and subjects, about seven hundred thousand men, and went against Chedorlaomer, and Chedorlaomer went out to meet him with five thousand men, and they prepared for battle in the valley of Babel which is between Elam and Shinar.

15 And all those kings fought there, and Nimrod and his people were smitten before the people of Chedorlaomer, and there fell from Nimrod's men about six hundred thousand, and Mardon the king's son fell amongst them.

16 And Nimrod fled and returned in shame and disgrace to his land, and he was under subjection to Chedorlaomer for a long time, and Chedorlaomer returned to his land and sent princes of his host to the kings that dwelt around him, to Arioch king of Elasar, and to Tidal king of Goyim, and made a covenant with them, and they were all obedient to his commands.

17 And it was in the fifteenth year of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, which is the seventieth year of the life of Abram, and the Lord appeared to Abram in that year and he said to him, I am the Lord who brought thee out from Ur Casdim to give thee this land for an inheritance.

18 Now therefore walk before me and be perfect and keep my commands, for to thee and to thy seed I will give this land for an inheritance, from the river Mitzraim unto the great river Euphrates.

19 And thou shalt come to thy fathers in peace and in good age, and the fourth generation shall return here in this land and shall inherit it forever; and Abram built an altar, and he called upon the name of the Lord who appeared to him, and he brought up sacrifices upon the altar to the Lord.

20 At that time Abram returned and went to Haran to see his father and mother, and his father's household, and Abram and his wife and all belonging to him returned to Haran, and Abram dwelt in Haran five years.

21 And many of the people of Haran, about seventy-two men, followed Abram and Abram taught them the instruction of the Lord and his ways, and he taught them to know the Lord.

22 In those days the Lord appeared to Abram in Haran, and he said to him, Behold, I spoke unto thee these twenty years back saying,

23 Go forth from thy land, from thy birth-place and from thy father's house, to the land which I have shown thee to give it to thee and to thy children, for there in that land will I bless thee, and make thee a great nation, and make thy name great, and in thee shall the families of the earth be blessed.

24 Now therefore arise, go forth from this place, thou, thy wife, and all belonging to thee, also every one born in thy house and all the souls thou hast made in Haran, and bring them out with thee from here, and rise to return to the land of Canaan.

25 And Abram arose and took his wife Sarai and all belonging to him and all that were born to him in his house and the souls which they had made in Haran, and they came out to go to the land of Canaan.

26 And Abram went and returned to the land of Canaan, according to the word of the Lord. And Lot the son of his brother Haran went with him, and Abram was seventy-five years old when he went forth from Haran to return to the land of Canaan.

27 And he came to the land of Canaan according to the word of the Lord to Abram, and he pitched his tent and he dwelt in the plain of Mamre, and with him was Lot his brother's son, and all belonging to him.

28 And the Lord again appeared to Abram and said, To thy seed will I give this land; and he there built an altar to the Lord who appeared to him, which is still to this day in the plains of Mamre.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
when I read it, I thought they wouldn't just sit there listening to the entire torah being gone over again.. priests who had studied all that all their lives, I think it was probably written in later, as a teaching tool for the early church, a waste of space.
No, I think Luke honestly recorded Stephen's speech...I have no proof that it was written in later.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Paul said from the promise to the Law was 430 years.
Stephen was quoting from a corrupted source which does not corroborate with the record in Genesis. Paul read the true history book and quoted things from it often.
Paul's source corroborates with Genesis, and Genesis is "Torah" and "thus saith YHWH" because Moses was instructed to write the Torah accounts.


Stephen's source was corrupted.

Just as Stephen's source was corrupted in that one proven fact, his was also corrupted in several more facts:
the age of Moses when he fled Egypt
his time in Midian
where he was before he went to Midian and what he did there -which was to become king of ancient Sudan -called Ethiopia today- and marry the widowed queen of That area, called Cush, in Hebrew [Sudan today] but Ethiopia in English translations.

So when Exodus states that Miriam and Aaron became jealous of Moses because of the "Ethiopian wife that he married", and God punished them, then the Genesis record is corroborating the history book of Jasher, again.
Moses' marriage was political expediency when he was asked to reign over Cush. He had learned warfare and defeated the enemies of Cush by his wisdom, so they asked him to reign....the king's son grew up and the wife wanted him to be king. Moses agreed and left Cush with many gifts, and went to Midian.
When in Midian, Moses ended up marrying a descendant of Abraham and Keturah, a midianite woman.
So Genesis mentions and corroborates the "Ethiopian/Cush" wife of Moses, which is detailed in the Upright Record" -and not needed to be rewritten for the Torah accounts.

Genesis 15:
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:...
Now God counted the four generations from:
1 Isaac
2 Jacob
3 Levi
4 Moses


Jochebed was Levi's daughter, married to Levi's grandson, because Levi is the father of the daughter who is the mother of Moses, then Moses is counted as the seed of the fourth generation, by YHWH. There are other times in the Word where a generation is counted from the father when a daughter is married to a grandson etc...

And Paul wrote that from the time of the promise was 430 years.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7734312/#post62711803
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Sorry you are mistaken...in Genesis 15:13 the scripture reads "And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years"...Stephen is merely paraphrasing here in the general context of the greater conversation...indeed this was a prophecy of their experience in Egypt.....

Exactly. Stephen was very familiar with jewish history, in fact was quoting from memory in this final speech.

The idea that Stephen somehow believed that Isaac, Jacob and Joseph were all enslaved is nothing short of silly. Of course he understood them as sojourning in a strange land not their own and didn't attribute the slave aspect to that time.

The only reason for impugning Stephen's historical knowledge is if it someone contradicts one's own knowledge. Stephen clearly affirms Genesis which contradicts Jashar (which YSM believes is inerrant), hence the existence of this thread.

Bottom line, never judge the Bible by other writings.

You know it's a bit ironic. YSM, you have claimed Stephen was working off corrupted sources. I'd say the same about you.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Exactly. Stephen was very familiar with jewish history, in fact was quoting from memory in this final speech.

The idea that Stephen somehow believed that Isaac, Jacob and Joseph were all enslaved is nothing short of silly. Of course he understood them as sojourning in a strange land not their own and didn't attribute the slave aspect to that time.

The only reason for impugning Stephen's historical knowledge is if it someone contradicts one's own knowledge. Stephen clearly affirms Genesis which contradicts Jashar (which YSM believes is inerrant), hence the existence of this thread.

Bottom line, never judge the Bible by other writings.
Please stop making false claims about my beliefs. You are lying about what I have said or believe and making your lie to try to be the focus of this thread -and stop high-jacking it, as I had the good grace to leave yours when you requested me too. I request that you return the same courtesy.


I have often refuted with my own words what you are saying....stop trying to set yourself up as my judge and jury based on your own fallible beliefs.

In Acts, at Cornelius' house, Peter quoted from a corrupted account that was indeed "Jewish Fables" and not "inspired nor true history", but a mixture taken from both, and added myths made up so as to present the Law as the be-all-end all. Jesus corrected his wrong information when he let down the sheet with the unclean animals and said; "rise and eat", to teach Peter that his own tradition was in error.

Peter walked with Jesus for three and a half years, but the LORD did not try to correct all errors at that time, because He came to be The Way, The Truth, and The Life.
However, eventually, the LORD does correct errors, and Peter was corrected.

Paul was a scholar who knew the true history and quoted from it many times. Paul's words that the promise was 430 years before the Law refutes Stephen's corrupted account, so Paul was the LORD's way of correcting what Stephen said from corrupted texts.

Stephen was with the LORD by then, and the Church goes on, and the Church must learn, or be ignorant and promote myths.

Genesis, the inspired first book of the Torah, also refutes Stephen's corrupted account. Stephen really read it the way he said it, but his words do not agree with Genesis in that anyone can add up the years as I have shown, as they are given in the Torah, and see that Israel was in Egypt 210 years, and not oppressed until after Joseph died, who died 71 years after they entered Egypt.
Get that! "No oppression of Israel until after Joseph died, and oppression began as a creep. Moses was born to the daughter of Levi, Jochebed, only 57 years after Joseph died.

Until Joseph's death, Israel had the best of Egypt and lived in grand style....no oppression!!! -no slavery!



Acts 7:6 "But God spoke in this way: that his descendants would dwell in a foreign land, and that they would bring them into bondage and oppress them four hundred years. [tradition and error on Stephen's part.]


Do the math anyone; but the Upright Record, which Paul did read as is proved by his many references to what is written there, has already done the chronological record from the beginning. Torah agrees with the Book of Jasher in that accounting.
Paul agrees with Torah and the Book of Jasher in that accounting.

Paul said from the promise to the Law was 430 years.
Abraham was 70 years old when the promise was made!!! which makes the Jsher account rue and Paul correct, and Genes is correct in that Abraham was born to Terah when Terah was 70 years old!!!




Stephen was quoting from a corrupted source which does not corroborate with the record in Genesis. Paul read the true history book and quoted things from it often.
Paul's source corroborates with Genesis, and Genesis is "Torah" and "thus saith YHWH" because Moses was instructed to write the Torah accounts.


Stephen's source was corrupted.

Just as Stephen's source was corrupted in that one proven fact, his was also corrupted in several more facts:
the age of Moses when he fled Egypt
his time in Midian
where he was before he went to Midian and what he did there -which was to become king of ancient Sudan -called Ethiopia today- and marry the widowed queen of That area, called Cush, in Hebrew [Sudan today] but Ethiopia in English translations.

So when Exodus states that Miriam and Aaron became jealous of Moses because of the "Ethiopian wife that he married", and God punished them, then the Genesis record is corroborating the history book of Jasher, again.
Moses' marriage was political expediency when he was asked to reign over Cush. He had learned warfare and defeated the enemies of Cush by his wisdom, so they asked him to reign....the king's son grew up and the wife wanted him to be king. Moses agreed and left Cush with many gifts, and went to Midian.
When in Midian, Moses ended up marrying a descendant of Abraham and Keturah, a midianite woman.
So Genesis mentions and corroborates the "Ethiopian/Cush" wife of Moses, which is detailed in the Upright Record" -and not needed to be rewritten for the Torah accounts.
Genesis 15:
12 Now when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and behold, horror and great darkness fell upon him. 13 Then He said to Abram: “Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. 14 And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions. 15 Now as for you, you shall go to your fathers in peace; you shall be buried at a good old age. 16 But in the fourth generation they shall return here, for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete.”
17 And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:...
Now God counted the four generations from:
1 Isaac
2 Jacob
3 Levi
4 Moses


Jochebed was Levi's daughter, married to Levi's grandson, because Levi is the father of the daughter who is the mother of Moses, then Moses is counted as the seed of the fourth generation, by YHWH. There are other times in the Word where a generation is counted from the father when a daughter is married to a grandson etc...

And Paul wrote that from the time of the promise was 430 years.

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, [that] the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
http://www.christianforums.com/t7734312/#post62711803

 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Please stop making false claims about my beliefs. You are lying about what I have said or believe and making your lie to try to be the focus of this thread -and stop high-jacking it, as I had the good grace to leave yours when you requested me too. I request that you return the same courtesy.

I would only ask you to leave when you started going off topic, and rambling about the book of Jasher. You're asking me to leave because I'm effectively exposing your OP and showing a contradiction between jasher and Genesis.

And actually you need to stop being so evasive about what you really believe. On more than one occasion you have explained that you believe Jasher is 'true' and have used it to judge the Bible, like in the case of Stephen's historical teachings. But Stephen has been shown to be true. You on the other hand.....

Look if you say I'm not representing your views correctly on the accuracy of Jasher and Enoch set me straight. Here's a direct question. Do you think Jasher has errors? Do you think Genesis has errors? Honest answers to those two questions should clear the matter up.

Regarding the OP, I'm siding with Stephen. He had impeccable sources. You don't. I and other posters have shown that the 400/430 works out just perfectly. You keep posting these long-winded posts hoping people will get lost in the details. The truth is, Stephen was right, you are wrong.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Corroborating Genesis, Book of Jasher, and Stephen's Speech

As I pointed out, Stephen's speech cannot possibly corroborate with Genesis or with the Book of Jasher, but the book of Jasher and Genesis do corroborate one another, as well as Paul's letter.
So we have three witnesses that corroborate one another: Torah, Book of Jasher, and Paul.

Paul also corroborates Jashers chronology in that Abraham was 70 years old when the promise was given, before he returned to Haran and departed again, at age 75.

Paul read that, and detailed the exact age Abraham was, as recorded in Jasher, when the promise was given.

The promise was given 430 years before the Law. Abraham was 70 years old, then.

After the promsie was given, Abraham was blessed in Canaan.
Isaac was blessed in Canaan.
Jacob returned to Canaan and was blessed in Canaan.
Jacob entered Egypt and was blessed in Egypt.

Israel was blessed in Egypt until Joseph's death.

They lived in the best land there.
They prospered and increased in numbers, until a new king arose who did not know Joseph.


Exd 1:8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.

Israel had been in Egypt only 71 years when Joseph died.

Moses was born only 57 years after Joseph died.

Moses was Levi's grandson through his mother.

Moses, Levi, and Miriam were the fourth generation from Abraham, as Jochebed was the daughter of Levi, fulfilling the promise to Abraham by God counting -
Isaac as 1 generation out
Jacob as the 2nd generation out
Levi as the 3rd generation out
-and because Jochebed was the daughter of Levi,
Moses, Aaron, and Miriam counted the 4th generation out.


For those who want to try to make a generation equal 400 years so as to reconcile the difficulties presented in the fact that the Torah says "in the 4th generation they shall return here", then note that by trying to make a claim that a generation equaled 100 years -making their claim even more problematic in that then they would also have to count Amram and Kohath [cause one good error deserves another:)] and make Moses, etc, then the 6th generation out; and thusly, in their own error, making it " counting each generations age, over 800 years" out, and ending in total confusion; then note that the Torah refutes their error:

Isaac lived to the age of 170 years.
Jacob lived to the age of 147 years
Levi lived to the age of 137
Kohath lived to the age of 133
Amram lived to age of 137
Moses was 82 when Israel was led out

They returned fourth generation out from Abraham, and Jochebed, Moses' mother, being married to her nephew is skipped by God in counting as a generation, just as he skips mothers when there is such a marriage in the genealogies from Noah to Christ, making 70 in all, because a mother who is married to the seed of a grandfather through his own son or grandson makes her son counted as the generation after the grandfather -and so on, because the seed is from the Father, and Jochebed is Levi's daughter, and her son is counted as his son, because her husband is the son of Levi's son and so on...
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I would only ask you to leave when you started going off topic, and rambling about the book of Jasher. You're asking me to leave because I'm effectively exposing your OP and showing a contradiction between jasher and Genesis.

And actually you need to stop being so evasive about what you really believe. On more than one occasion you have explained that you believe Jasher is 'true' and have used it to judge the Bible, like in the case of Stephen's historical teachings. But Stephen has been shown to be true. You on the other hand.....

Look if you say I'm not representing your views correctly on the accuracy of Jasher and Enoch set me straight. Here's a direct question. Do you think Jasher has errors? Do you think Genesis has errors? Honest answers to those two questions should clear the matter up.

Regarding the OP, I'm siding with Stephen. He had impeccable sources. You don't. I and other posters have shown that the 400/430 works out just perfectly. You keep posting these long-winded posts hoping people will get lost in the details. The truth is, Stephen was right, you are wrong.
The original manuscripts are inspired, and there are errors in translation in Genesis in some places, which make myths out of errors, and errors of ignorance in translations in English from Genesis.
Only translators' bias or ignorance cause errors in either of those books translations, and I do not consider Jasher inspired, as you have claimed that I do, because no history is inspired, even the histories in the accepted canons are not inspired, as the Jews will tell you truthfully, because only what is "Thus saith YHWH" is inspired, like the prophets [and Enoch is the first prophet whose writings we have], and the Torah, because God said to write it.

Just because a history book is accepted in a list/canon prepared by men does not make the information in it absolutely accurate, as all the Inspired "Thus saith YHWH" writings are -like Torah, the prophets, and Revelation are, and the records of Jesus' Gospel in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John differ in their accounts in places -and give the skeptics much fodder- because they were writing history as they saw it, not as "Thus saith YHWH". They wrote truthfully, and yet there are different accounts by them that just differ, which makes them more believable in a court of Law than if they all seemed to copy one another.

Even Acts is history, and not "Thus saith YHWH".
God can quicken a passage from those history books to us as a truth to apply to our hearts for a particular situation -to learn from them so as to direct our own actions- but that does not make them "Thus saith YHWH" as Torah and the prophets and Revelation are.

Other Church histories written after the "lists/canons" were made can also teach us and direct us and give us clarity how to conduct ourselves as Believers in this life -after we are saved/born of the Spirit.


That does not mean the histories are not accurate -they are much more accurate than Josephus' historical accounts, even, whose books to read from were limited because of the burnings of the records and what was left for him to have access to. The histories of Josephus' own times are accurate, though, because he lived through them.

For the record I believe that the Book of Jasher is a redacted history written by Moses which he wrote as a further redaction from the writings of the Patriarchs, themselves, but his own history in Jasher is expanded and not re-laid in the Torah, because it was already written in Jasher -but was referred to in Torah in many places. Moses redacted the Jasher history even further for the Torah accounts, because "Behold, it was written in the Upright Record".
That is my opinion, and I am entitled to it and I have good reasons to believe it is so.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Corroborating Genesis and the Book of Jasher and Paul's writings:

Sunndenly out of the blue, with no prior foundation laid, we read this:
Exd 15:20
And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.

Now we read that Moses and Aaron sister's name is Miriam, and that she is a prophetess -and in Micah, YHWH tells us that Miriam is an apostle/sent by YHWH along with Moses and Aaron to Israel:

Mic 6:4 For I brought thee up out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of servants; and I sent before thee Moses, Aaron, and Miriam.

Why do we not read the foundational reasons in Genesis and in Exodus for Miriam's name, and for Miriam being called a prophetess? -Because "behold! is it not written in the Book of Jasher"! -a companion history written to expound upon the lives of the Patriarchs mentioned in the Torah and up to the end of the Torah account!


Jasher 68:1-3 And it was at that time the spirit of God was upon Miriam the daughter of Amram the sister of Aaron, and she went forth and prophesied about the house, saying, Behold a son will be born unto us from my father and mother this time, and he will save Israel from the hands of Egypt.
And when Amram heard the words of his daughter, he went and took his wife back to the house, after he had driven her away at the time when Pharaoh ordered every male child of the house of Jacob to be thrown into the water.
So Amram took Jochebed his wife, three years after he had driven her away, and he came to her and she conceived.

Jesus also remarks on the "Record of the Upright" in calling Abel the first prophet whose blood was slain. But in Torah, there is no remark of Abel's prophesy -Why? -because behold, "it was written in the Book of the Upright"

Paul tells us the names of the magicians who withstood Moses at Pharaoah's court, as Jannes and Jambres; but behold! their names are not written in the Torah account because "Behold, they were written in the Book of Jasher, already"!

Jasher 79:27 And when they had gone Pharaoh sent for Balaam the magician and to Jannes and Jambres his sons, and to all the magicians and conjurors and counsellors which belonged to the king, and they all came and sat before the king.

2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
 
Upvote 0

Calminian

Senior Veteran
Feb 14, 2005
6,789
1,044
Low Dessert
✟49,695.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The original manuscripts are inspired, and there are errors in translation in Genesis in some places, which make myths out of errors, and errors of ignorance in translations in English from Genesis.
Only translators' bias or ignorance cause errors in either of those books translations, and I do not consider Jasher inspired, as you have claimed that I do, because no history is inspired, even the histories in the accepted canons are not inspired, as the Jews will tell you truthfully, because only what is "Thus saith YHWH" is inspired, like the prophets [and Enoch is the first prophet whose writings we have], and the Torah, because God said to write it.

Genesis is history. And Jasher contains thus says the Lord statements.

Just because a history book is accepted in a list/canon prepared by men does not make the information in it absolutely accurate, as all the Inspired "Thus saith YHWH" writings are -like Torah, the prophets, and Revelation are, and the records of Jesus' Gospel in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John differ in their accounts in places -and give the skeptics much fodder- because they were writing history as they saw it, not as "Thus saith YHWH". They wrote truthfully, and yet there are different accounts by them that just differ, which makes them more believable in a court of Law than if they all seemed to copy one another.

Utter nonsense. The Gospels are inspired and do not contradict anywhere. You on the other hand contradict yourself all the time. Your stories and theories are utter foolishness, from your floating Garden of Eden to your slandering of the gospels.

Even Acts is history, and not "Thus saith YHWH".

As is your slandering of Acts.

That does not mean the histories are not accurate

And this of course is your deceptive way of making Jasher equal to scripture.

That is my opinion, and I am entitled to it and I have good reasons to believe it is so.

And i'm entitled to call you out on your lies (claiming you don't make Jasher equal to the Bible) and foolish interpretations.
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,027
620
✟86,400.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
My dear Tzadik, I fear you have been greatly deceived…the origin of the so-called Sepher ha’Yashar is admitted by all the Rabbis to be a late midrash (also called the Toldoth Adam) it is NOT the ancient work you believe it to be. I tell you this not to criticize you, but because I love you and care about your relationship with our Father.

It was created by a Rabbi (remember that Rabbis did not even exist in the time period covered) and was a compilation of tradition (some oral and some opinion) from the Babylonian Talmud, various Arabic legends, the pseudipigraphic “Chronicle of Moses”, and more….aside from various legends that grew up around the book and though our version comes from a 1613 text, it is alleged by most Rabbinical Scholars to have been written in Naples around 1552 (note the author’s knowledge of Italian place names when the land of “Italia” did not even exist in men’s minds in the time of the Torah accounts). Can’t you see that this is NOT the book of Yasher referred to in the Torah…the notion that Moses was born 57 years after Joseph is an obvious error or else an outright lie to discredit the Genesis account.

Scholar Dean Shuab points out many contradictions between the Bible and the book of Jasher, he shows us…

Jasher 13:5 says that Abram went to the land of Canaan at the age of 50 then back to Haran and back to Canaan at age 75, Genesis 12:4 states that Abram was 75 when he departed Haran.

Jasher 18:9 states that one of the angels tells Abraham that Sarah will have a son, but Gen. 17:16 says that God told Abraham (after the third century most Rabbis did not believe YHVH would ever come on the flesh because they had been so influenced as to believe spirit = good and flesh = evil…a sadly gnostic distortion but necessary to deny Moshiach’s deity). The Torah tells us that YHVH sent the two angels to Sodom to rain fire and brimstone down upon them from YHVH in heaven but this makes YHVH Who is manifest in the flesh in the tent of Abraham a mere angel (not even the Angel of the LORD who is the YHVH of Exodus 3)

Jasher 22:44-45 says the Lord got the idea of presenting Isaac as an offering from Isaacs boast to Ishmael. We know, of course, that God is sovereign and as it says in Gen. 22:1-2 & 12 that the Lord was testing Abraham.

Genesis 28:5 states that Isaac sent Jacob to Padan-aram unto Laban, but Jasher 29:11 says that he fled to the house of Eber and hid there for 14 years.

Jasher 47:9 says Isaac dies, according to the chronology of Jasher, Joseph was in Egypt but in Gen. 35:29 Isaac died before Joseph even had his dreams (which is true? Torah or Jasher?).

Simeon could not be bound in Jasher 51:37 but in Genesis. 42:24 Simeon is bound before their eyes.

Jahser 78:12-13 -- Pharaoh proclaims no more straw but same amount of bricks (before Moses even goes to Pharaoh.) Exodus 5:1,7-8 says it happened after Moses confronts Pharaoh.

In Jasher 42:30-41, Rachel talks to Joseph from the grave. This is of course necromancy and is an abomination unto the Lord (Deuteronomy 18:11-12).

According to 53:18-22 Benjamin used a "map (or chart) of stars" to find Joseph. Deuteronomy 18:10 forbids this and the Bible tells us how they found Joseph.

Chapter 71 of the Book of Jasher teaches that Moses was 18 years old when he left Egypt and he didn’t go to Midian but to Cush where he becomes their king (72:34-36)?

Jasher 81:3-4 claims that the Israelites sojourned in Egypt for 210 years whereas the Scripture repeatedly say it was 430 years.

Jasher 43:35 -- Isaac went from Hebron to comfort Jacob, his son, because Joseph is dead (sold). Gen. 35:27-29 Isaac died before Joseph is sold by his brothers

And there is more but this should suffice…

Please do not be persuaded…make the Scriptures your rule of thumb. Do not judge scripture in the light of men’s tales, but judge men’s tales in the light of Holy Scripture. I also found the 1st and 2nd Books of Adam and Eve to be intriguing fiction but would not think they are inspired by God (theopneustos graphae). Go with God...this Jasher (and I do not mean pseudo-Jasher) is a book of elaborated fables and nothing more. The Lord bless you...

In His love

Paul
 
Upvote 0

yeshuasavedme

Senior Veteran
May 31, 2004
12,811
779
✟105,205.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
... it is alleged by most Rabbinical Scholars to have been written in Naples around 1552 (note the author’s knowledge of Italian place names when the land of “Italia” did not even exist in men’s minds in the time of the Torah accounts).

Paul
If you had honestly researched the Book of Jasher for yourself instead of looking up and pasting from this: An Overview of the Book of Jasher, then We could have an honest go at resolving any questions you may have, but since they are not honestly your own and you got them from someone else, by pasting instead of honest research, the debate would be dishonest and I am not inclined to write a book to refute another book with you as the middle man, doing no honest research of your own, using a site which is in much error by its author's own ignorance of what is said, when, and where, and how the real Book of Jasher does not in any way contradict one thing in the Torah, but rather complements it and also enlightens us as to what the history is of the times before Israel entered Canaan.

Let me point out that the history of the nations around Egypt and Canaan at the time of Moses' writing and of the years of Israel in Egypt are corroborated by many facts that no one could know who did not live in the times.
Just one point is that the name of the city of Naples, Italy is said in the Encyclopedia Britannica to be unknown where the name came from, but in Jasher, in one of the wars that is described, a King's son named Niblos was killed, and buried with pomp there, and that place was called NBlS to this day -there are no vowels in the old writings, and niblos becomes naples. b-p are labials and interchange language to language.

Jasher 60
And Angeas heard the words of the children of Chittim which they sent to him in the record, and his anger was kindled and he rose up and assembled his whole army and came through the islands of the sea, the road to Sardunia, unto his brother Lucus king of Sardunia.
17

And Niblos, the son of Lucus, heard that his uncle Angeas was coming, and he went out to meet him with a heavy army, and he kissed him and embraced him, and Niblos said unto Angeas, When thou askest my father after his welfare, when I shall go with thee to fight with Turnus, ask of him to make me captain of his host, and Angeas did so, and he came unto his brother and his brother came to meet him, and he asked him after his welfare.
18

And Angeas asked his brother Lucus after his welfare, and to make his son Niblos captain of his host, and Lucus did so, and Angeas and his brother Lucus rose up and they went toward Turnus to battle, and there was with them a great army and a heavy people.
19

And he came in ships, and they came into the province of Ashtorash, and behold Turnus came toward them, for he went forth to Sardunia, and intended to destroy it and afterward to pass on from there to Angeas to fight with him.
20

And Angeas and Lucus his brother met Turnus in the valley of Canopia, and the battle was strong and mighty between them in that place.
21

And the battle was severe upon Lucus king of Sardunia, and all his army fell, and Niblos his son fell also in that battle.
22

And his uncle Angeas commanded his servants and they made a golden coffin for Niblos and they put him into it, and Angeas again waged battle toward Turnus, and Angeas was stronger than he, and he slew him, and he smote all his people with the edge of the sword, and Angeas avenged the cause of Niblos his brother's son and the cause of the army of his brother Lucus.
23

And when Turnus died, the hands of those that survived the battle became weak, and they fled from before Angeas and Lucus his brother.
24

And Angeas and his brother Lucus pursued them unto the highroad, which is between Alphanu and Romah, and they slew the whole army of Turnus with the edge of the sword.
25

And Lucus king of Sardunia commanded his servants that they should make a coffin of brass, and that they should place therein the body of his son Niblos, and they buried him in that place.
26

And they built upon it a high tower there upon the highroad, and they called its name after the name of Niblos unto this day, and they also buried Turnus king of Bibentu there in that place with Niblos.

27

And behold upon the highroad between Alphanu and Romah the grave of Niblos is on one side and the grave of Turnus on the other, and a pavement between them unto this day.
28

And when Niblos was buried, Lucus his father returned with his army to his land Sardunia, and Angeas his brother king of Africa went with his people unto the city of Bibentu, that is the city of Turnus.
29

And the inhabitants of Bibentu heard of his fame and they were greatly afraid of him, and they went forth to meet him with weeping and supplication, and the inhabitants of Bibentu entreated of Angeas not to slay them nor destroy their city; and he did so, for Bibentu was in those days reckoned as one of the cities of the children of Chittim; therefore he did not destroy the city.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0