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Corrective Baptism

Light of the East

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I know that Fr. Peter Heers is a controversial figure, to say the least. As I was cruising YouTube, I found a video on "Corrective Baptism" in which his special plea is the writings of the Fathers and Saints of the Church.

I understand that some jurisdictions require rebaptism of folks coming in from other Christian groups. I also appreciate any reference to the Fathers of the Church, for it was their writings which got me out of Protestantism.

For jurisdictions which do not require baptism, is this more a matter of economia within the Church than a hard, fast rule from the past? I will, of course, be obedient to whatever Fr. David requires.

Thank you for your input.
 
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Light of the East

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honestly, this really is for you to ask Fr David, because you do find evidence on both sides.


Yes, that is a good answer, and I will do that.
 
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buzuxi02

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I know that Fr. Peter Heers is a controversial figure, to say the least. As I was cruising YouTube, I found a video on "Corrective Baptism" in which his special plea is the writings of the Fathers and Saints of the Church.

I understand that some jurisdictions require rebaptism of folks coming in from other Christian groups. I also appreciate any reference to the Fathers of the Church, for it was their writings which got me out of Protestantism.

For jurisdictions which do not require baptism, is this more a matter of economia within the Church than a hard, fast rule from the past? I will, of course, be obedient to whatever Fr. David requires.

Thank you for your input.
A bishop can decide whether you should be baptized or received by eikonomia regardless of the acceptance of the form. He can flip flop and change his mind 100 times. Heck bishop can postpone your baptism and/or chrismation till your deathbed if need be! But regardless there is only one baptism.
Now if I'm not mistaken corrective baptism means the controversial practised of baptising an individual after being chrismated to correct a heterodox form. This can also be just reading some of the exorcism prayers that may have been omitted. I don't know if it's right but for me it shows that there still is in the conscience of the church the belief only an Orthodox baptism is a true baptism.
 
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Light of the East

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A bishop can decide whether you should be baptized or received by eikonomia regardless of the acceptance of the form. He can flip flop and change his mind 100 times. Heck bishop can postpone your baptism and/or chrismation till your deathbed if need be! But regardless there is only one baptism.
Now if I'm not mistaken corrective baptism means the controversial practised of baptising an individual after being chrismated to correct a heterodox form. This can also be just reading some of the exorcism prayers that may have been omitted. I don't know if it's right but for me it shows that there still is in the conscience of the church the belief only an Orthodox baptism is a true baptism.

Yes, corrective baptism is done in the understanding that A.) a baptism was done that was invalid for some reason and B.) for the more strict Orthodox, such as the Russian Orthodox, for reasons that baptisms outside Orthodoxy are not valid at all, regardless of the correctness of the words and form.

I sent this short email to Fr. Subu:

Dear Father Subu:

I am writing to inform you that I have tendered my formal resignation from the Ukrainian Catholic parish I have been attending and wish to be chrismated into the Orthodox faith. As a retired person, my time is free, therefore, I would be glad to meet with you at your convenience so that we might discuss this desire and you might ask of me any questions you need to ask. I am caretaker for my sick wife, so the best time for me would be any time after 11 AM.

I have had several conversations with Fr. Deacon Nicholas and I received a nice email from Anna Caraveli of the Connections team. Your people have really made me feel welcome as a visitor, and I hope that I might soon have the privilege of being a member of St. Mary's.


And received this reply:

Dear Edward,

May the Lord God bless you! We’d be honored to have you with us. Perhaps next week around 11:30 am by phone if you are available would be easiest, but I am happy to meet in person.

Oooooooooh!!!! Well, this is exciting!!
 
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rakovsky

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B.) for the more strict Orthodox, such as the Russian Orthodox, for reasons that baptisms outside Orthodoxy are not valid at all, regardless of the correctness of the words and form.
To be clear, the general Russian Tradition (MP and OCA in particular) does not "rebaptise" or give a second, EO baptism to classic mainstream Protestants (eg. Lutherans) or Catholics.

Canon 7 of the 2nd Ecumenical Council and Canon 95 of the Sixth Council lay out two basic categories of converts to Orthodoxy. One category is those with a stronger level of heresy like the Sabellians who identify the Father with the Son. The other category is those with a lesser degree like the Apollinarians. As I understand it, Apollinarians believed in the Trinity, but who thought that Jesus had two "modes" (divine and human). The Sixth Council's 95th Canon, as far as I can tell, puts "Nestorians" and "Monophysites" (OOs) in the second category, which would make sense. Catholics and classic mainstream Protestants (Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians) would go in this second category.

I recall reading that starting around the 1950's-1970's on the West Coast, ROCOR began imposing a separate EO baptism for heterodox converts.
 
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rakovsky

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Are we talking about reception by Baptism or corrective Baptism (which is baptising someone who's already been received into the Church through some other means)?
My guess is that the Opening Post was talking about Reception by EO Rebaptism because the Poster (Light of the East) is a Catholic coming to Orthodoxy.
Buzuxi talked about corrective baptism in Post #4.
In my Post #6, I was talking about Reception by Baptism.

ROCOR does Reception by Rebaptism, but I don't know of any cases where ROCOR has demanded Corrective Baptism. I heard that Mt Athos used Corrective Baptism before communing EO converts visiting Mt Athos, but I don't know if they still do, or if all monasteries on Mt Athos did.
 
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E.C.

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I recall reading that starting around the 1950's-1970's on the West Coast, ROCOR began imposing a separate EO baptism for heterodox converts.
ROCOR generally rebaptizes anyone. Catholic, Oriental Orthodox, traditional Protestants, Reformed Protestants, Evangelicals, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists; anyone. If you were not baptized Orthodox, ROCOR will rebaptize you. Whether they phrase that as rebaptism, corrective baptism, or just plain baptism depends upon the views of the individual bishop or priest.


The OCA generally does not baptize converts from Catholicism, but with some liturgical Protestant groups like Anglicans and Lutherans I think it depends on the person. I've personally seen Anglicans and Lutherans received both by baptism in some cases and chrismation in others. I became Orthodox via chrismation with the OCA and it was explained to me that chrismation completes the Catholic baptism. Keep in mind that in the Catholic church you're baptized as an infant, but confirmed (chrismated) in your high school years. Part of the rational goes back to the canon you mentioned and that the Nicene Creed mentions "I believe in ONE baptism..." - emphasis mine.


Did the 17th century Synod of Jerusalem lay out reception of Catholic and Protestant converts, or am I mistaken?
 
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rakovsky

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If you were not baptized Orthodox, ROCOR will rebaptize you. Whether they phrase that as rebaptism, corrective baptism, or just plain baptism depends upon the views of the individual bishop or priest.
In my experience, ROCOR seems to just want to call ROCOR baptism "baptism" in those cases, and to save that the original heterodox baptism didn't count, thus making ROCOR baptism not a rebaptism. St Basil however, in a case of a rebaptism that he supported, did use the term rebaptism, so it looks like it should be a fine term to me even from the ROCOR POV.

The OCA generally does not baptize converts from Catholicism, but with some liturgical Protestant groups like Anglicans and Lutherans I think it depends on the person. I've personally seen Anglicans and Lutherans received both by baptism in some cases and chrismation in others. I became Orthodox via chrismation with the OCA and it was explained to me that chrismation completes the Catholic baptism.
I read an MP (Russian language) article from years ago explaining that there are three theories on how chrismating instead of rebaptising heterodox converts functions, one of which is "completion" (what you mentioned)

Keep in mind that in the Catholic church you're baptized as an infant, but confirmed (chrismated) in your high school years. Part of the rational goes back to the canon you mentioned and that the Nicene Creed mentions "I believe in ONE baptism..." - emphasis mine.
Did the 17th century Synod of Jerusalem lay out reception of Catholic and Protestant converts, or am I mistaken?
If the 17th century Synod of Jerusalem (held by the JP himself) imposed reception of those heterodox, then it would, strictly speaking, only be authority directly over Jerusalem's Patriarchate, as well as any EO Churches that affirm that Synod.
The Russian Church does not take an official position on this Synod and in one case (Deuterocanon's status) has a different position. The JP Synod that you mentioned affirmed some of the OT Deuterocanon as canon, whereas the ROC still typically refers to the OT Deuterocanon as "noncanonical" in Church parlance (even though the ROC uses some Deuterocanon in its official readings).
The JP Synod was practically a Counterreformation Synod, reacting against the possible Calvinism of Pt. Lucaris. This is important background to understanding that Synod.

Often the ROC actually contains views and practices that are more "traditional" and older than their contemporary Greek practices. The Old Believer schism is the most famous of this phenomenon (the ROC holding older practices than the Greeks was one cause of the conflict), but there are plenty of others, eg. organs in Greek Churches. Synod of Dositheus is one example. Eastern Fathers only accepted the Deuterocanon in some piecemeal limited idiosyncratic fashion, and the ROC's typical theology on that topic more closely resembles the older, pre-Reformation position held in the East. The Council of Dositheus, on the other hand, more closely resembles the Catholic West's position. The Council of Trullo Canon 2 seems most authoritative on the topic, and it's ambiguous, although I lean to taking it to support the OT Deuterocanon's canonicity.
 
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