Correcting Christian Leaders.

Yitzchak · Mar 28, 2010

This subject seems to come up quite often on the forums here. One of the recent ones was Ernie Greun. He wrote a report a couple of hundred pages long specifically against a well known Christian ministry. In his report , he cites people's testimonies that had a falling out with that ministry. They talk about "secret" teachings and accuse the leaders of the ministry of lying.
So I am starting a thread about the more general topic. What is the Biblical way to correct a Christian Ministry. And is this something that is appropriate for every person to do ? If they disagree with a Ministry , to dig up as much dirt as they can , even if it is rumors and half truths taken out of context and publically smear a Ministries reputation. Is this O.K. ?
I see people out there attacking Benny Hinn , Joyce Meyer , Todd Bentley , etc.
Personally I think there is a difference between debating a particular Ministries Public Doctrinal position and attacking a Christian leader personally.

1Ti 5:1 Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;

1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

But this is the thread for it. Go ahead and present your case....What is the right way to handle these disagreements ? And where does it cross the line ?

actionsub · Mar 28, 2010

The Ernie Gruen incident (unless there's a more recent one) happened about 15 years ago when Mike Bickle brought in Paul Cain and John Jackson; and they were throwing down on other Kansas City churches, saying they all needed to shut down and get with "the new move of God in Kansas City". Gruen, who pastored another charismatic church in KC, apparently was a little stung by these statements and fired off a 200-page paper in response titled "Do We Keep Silent and Say Nothing?"

Yitzchak · Mar 28, 2010

actionsub said:
The Ernie Gruen incident (unless there's a more recent one) happened about 15 years ago when Mike Bickle brought in Paul Cain and John Jackson; and they were throwing down on other Kansas City churches, saying they all needed to shut down and get with "the new move of God in Kansas City". Gruen, who pastored another charismatic church in KC, apparently was a little stung by these statements and fired off a 200-page paper in response titled "Do We Keep Silent and Say Nothing?"

1990 seems to be the date of the report. Here is a small piece of the introduction to the report. Ernie Green says here that He recieved direction from God that he was to publically preach against Mike Bickle's Ministry....

Finally, the Lord Jesus Christ laid it firmly on my heart that something had to be done. I decided to obey Matthew 18. I met with Mike privately, and then met twice with Mike and members of his leadership group. These efforts proved fruitless. During the meetings, aspects of Mikes character which were extremely troubling came out. Mike Bickle delivered ominous spiritual warnings threatening me with harm. Our concerns were deepened rather than alleviated. Outer lip service reassurances by Mike never generated any real change of heart or practice.
On Saturday, January 20, while praying at the church, God told that if I didnt preach the message Do We Keep Smiling and Say Nothing?, I would be disobedient to Him. I had no choice but speak out publicly to warn the body of Christ. It wasnt something I wanted to do, but God was directing me to take a stand for the sake of His people. As I was praying with my wife, Dee, on the Monday morning after I preached that sermon, she referred to a scripture in Acts 18 which God had given us years ago when we first received the baptism of the Holy Spirit The Lord impressed me to look it up and read it. The scripture reads as follows:
...Do not be afraid any longer, but go on speaking and do not be silent; for I am with you, and no man will attack you in order to harm you, for I have many people in this city. Acts 18:910 (NASV)
I had been afraid because Mike Bickle implied my death if I took a stand against his teaching, but now the Lord was clearly speaking to me that I ought not be silent; that He would be with me; that no harm would come to me; and that I had to keep speaking because of the people in this city.
Mike has sought to portray our concerns as a personality conflict, a problem of misunderstanding and lack of communication, and even insecurity or jealousy on my part. I want to assure you that I did not place 34 years of fruitful ministry and my national credibility on the line for any of these trivial reasons. The deep conviction of my heart is that we have, in Kansas City, the beginnings of a Charismatic heresy which is far more significant than the shepherding controversy. I believe that this could split the body of Christ and cause untold damage to tens of thousands of Christians, as well as hundreds of churches across America.

banish'd · Mar 28, 2010

For some reason unknown to me, "correcting christian leaders"" seems to be the central issue with Pentecostal and Charismatic leaders.

That is the main reason I am in the process of switching over to Vineyard. There seems to be a third wave, and it's at Vineyard. Whether or not the third wave will correct the the tarnished leader problem remains to be seen.

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Yitzchak · Mar 28, 2010

banish'd said:
For some reason unknown to me, "correcting christian leaders"" seems to be the central issue with Pentecostal and Charismatic leaders.

That is the main reason I am in the process of switching over to Vineyard. There seems to be a third wave, and it's at Vineyard. Whether or not the third wave will correct the the tarnished leader problem remains to be seen.

-

Vineyard is not immune from the attacks....

from rapidnet.com

The Vineyard's approach to healing is not the mere laying on of hands accompanied by fervent prayer, but the incorporation of an unholy mixture of Jungian psychology and Agnes Sanford's "inner healing" techniques, both of which have their roots in the occult, but have become popularized in our day through the New Age Movement (Albert James Dager, Vengeance Is Ours, p. 155). "There is every indication that the Vineyard movement, chasing after signs and wonders, has become caught up in a mystical [New Age] mindset that will lead inevitably to a greater religious deception to which the vast majority of the world's populace will succumb" (Dager, p. 156).

Yitzchak · Mar 28, 2010

banish'd said:
For some reason unknown to me, "correcting christian leaders"" seems to be the central issue with Pentecostal and Charismatic leaders.

That is the main reason I am in the process of switching over to Vineyard. There seems to be a third wave, and it's at Vineyard. Whether or not the third wave will correct the the tarnished leader problem remains to be seen.

-

I hope it does correct the problem.

banish'd · Mar 29, 2010

(quote)
The Vineyard's approach to healing is not the mere laying on of hands accompanied by fervent prayer, but the incorporation of an unholy mixture of Jungian psychology and Agnes Sanford's "inner healing" techniques, both of which have their roots in the occult, but have become popularized in our day through the New Age Movement (Albert James Dager, Vengeance Is Ours, p. 155). "There is every indication that the Vineyard movement, chasing after signs and wonders, has become caught up in a mystical [New Age] mindset that will lead inevitably to a greater religious deception to which the vast majority of the world's populace will succumb" (Dager, p. 156).
(end of quote)

Good grief! What kind of a mess did I get myself into this time? No wonder! During my first bible study last month there was a lot of conflict, and I had to drop out. I explained how healing was about the same as intercession, but when I put my hand on the patient I brought him into the loop with me. No one like to hear that.

Can you guys give me more materal to read about Vineyard?

It's are real nice little church, and I enjoy to worship with them.

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Yitzchak · Mar 29, 2010

My experience with Vineyard is mostly through their worship music. I have been edifyed for years by their worship music.

From Vineyard Community Church website-A Vineyard church in Maryland.

Though the Vineyard doesn't consider itself to be a Pentecostal movement, it does affirm the present day ministry of the Holy Spirit. God still heals, still speaks, still empowers, and still invades the natural with His supernatural power.

Kingdom Theology:

More than anything else, Kingdom Theology is probably the most distinctive feature of the Vineyard's theology. The term "Kingdom Theology," has its roots in the writings of G. E. Ladd. He explains the Kingdom as the kingly rule of God and the realm where that rule is exercised. The Kingdom of God is present in our lives when we live under His rule but it is yet to come on the earth in its fullest measure. You could say that the Kingdom of God has come but is still coming. In this way the kingdom is "already" but "not yet." We live in a bit of an awkward place in time, a time between the times. The Kingdom of God is already here, but not yet here. We see it popping up here and there, but it's not been brought to its completion. We wait in anticipation for that day. But until it comes we can see the Kingdom of God at work in our lives, overcoming addictions, physical and emotional healing, and bringing true life.

Yitzchak · Mar 29, 2010

As I have stated several times , I believe the best source for information about a group is their own testimony and statement of beliefs.

Here is from Vineyard.ca The Canadian website for Vineyard.

History-

THE VINEYARD MOVEMENT

In one sense, Vineyard Christian Fellowship was born out of repentance. In 1976 Carol Wimber began to develop an insatiable hunger for God. She saw her own religious expertise and opinions in the light of his truth and began to seek him. Carol retreated to her bedroom for weeks on end, weeping, repenting, crying out to God. Soon she left her place of hiding and sought those who she had wronged through harsh and misdirected instruction. Not long afterward, many of these people began to meet together to worship God and pray. This small group seemed innocent enough, but God had given Carol a vision that these people would one day be a mighty church.

As this small fellowship began to grow, their home church became alarmed and the growing group was asked and blessed to leave. Knowing only that they had a new heart for God, they decided to make an organizational effort to begin formal services and on Mother's Day, 1977, Bob Fulton led the first meeting in Yorba Linda. Soon Carol's husband, John, resigned his position at Fuller Evangelistic Association to lead the fellowship. By 1978 their first facility was too small, and the group began meeting at a Junior High School.

Early on the church became part of the Calvary Chapel system. It was a young church then, with the median age around 23. Calvary Chapel Yorba Linda, as they were then called, began to develop a reputation as being a church that was a little "out of control." God had already instilled within them the priority of worship. As worship songs were sung, sometimes for an hour, people wept, raised their hands and knelt on the floor. Not only was worship slightly outside the norm, but soon the church began to experience God's supernatural power. It became evident that the church was going in a different direction than the Calvary Chapel philosophy. They made an amicable change to the name Vineyard Christian Fellowship, the name used by a small group of churches originally started by Kenn Gulliksen.

A good beginning , in my opinion.

Yitzchak · Mar 29, 2010

In keeping with it's name, Vineyard was extremely fruitful and experienced huge growth....

The church at this time began to grow in an astounding way. God began gifting them with evangelism. During 1978-79 approximately 1,000 people were baptized and by the time they moved to Anaheim in late '83 they had already filled their new facility with 2,000 people. As Anaheim became their home, the priority of sending began to take effect.

What began as a small group of 15 people was truly becoming a movement as the few initial Vineyards quickly began to multiply first on the west coast of the U.S. then across the country, into Canada, England and eventually throughout the world. Since that time the movement has grown and matured. In 1995, Canada was the first nation to be released to their own National Association followed by England in the spring of 1996. This marked the beginning of a new stage of development in the Vineyard: the forming of a consortium of nations joined together by God for the common purpose of extending the kingdom of God in every nation.

The central ingredient in experiencing this favour in the past and present is also the key to the future a hunger for God that was nurtured in Carol's heart in the privacy of her bedroom. If we will keep that focus as our primary concern we can be assured of his continued mercy and blessing.

banish'd · Mar 29, 2010

Yitzchak,

Thanks a million for the information. I will probably stick with Vineyard a little longer to find out more.

One of the reasons is that I feel a kinship with that church though Lonnie Frizbee. My brother was gay and lived down there in Los Angeles, and we used to worship with the "Jesus Freaks" when I visited my brother.

I don't know for sure if I am called to Vineyard, or just simply miss my brother? Anyway, they all died from Aids. Sad!

talitha · Mar 29, 2010

Ernie Gruen is a member of the ministers' association that I have attended meetings with in Missouri. He is my pastor's mentor, and he has somewhere along the line repented of "firing off" that paper. Actually Mike Bickle is associated with the same group, and I remember seeing Brother Ernie there when Mike was speaking, I think. I love how God heals and brings reconciliation. Just thought I'd stick this in here.

Yitzchak · Mar 29, 2010

talitha said:
Ernie Gruen is a member of the ministers' association that I have attended meetings with in Missouri. He is my pastor's mentor, and he has somewhere along the line repented of "firing off" that paper. Actually Mike Bickle is associated with the same group, and I remember seeing Brother Ernie there when Mike was speaking, I think. I love how God heals and brings reconciliation. Just thought I'd stick this in here.

I am glad if they have reconciled. I read somewhere online tonight that Ernie Greun passed away last year.

heatherfb · Mar 29, 2010

Think it's a difficult one this. Within an individual fellowship then speaking directly to the leader is the best thing to do. I would also say that if it's fairly serious then it would be best to have a witness with you who can confirm what is said by either person. Too easily these things can become "he said, she said"! It's always best to really pray about it too, after all we are to give honour to our leaders and, often, there can be a thin line between pointing out an error and just moaning because we think wevknow best!

When we have no personal acquaintence with someone, like some of these bigger names you mentioned, then it's a bit more tricky. Public slandering of someone because we do not agree with their theology or whatever is very dangerous. Again, I think it's best if possible to contact the person or ministry directly. It saddens me to see Christians tearing down other Christians just because they feel each other is wrong. Perhaps when we get to heaven then we may realise that where we saw only black and White, god saw a beautiful array of different colours that all mean something special.

The key to any of it is that it must be done in love and not as a points scoring exercise. We should be careful also not to slander someone else's character just because we don't like what they say -different theology does not mean that someone is from the devil!

disciple-ofjesus · Mar 29, 2010

talitha said:
Ernie Gruen is a member of the ministers' association that I have attended meetings with in Missouri. He is my pastor's mentor, and he has somewhere along the line repented of "firing off" that paper. Actually Mike Bickle is associated with the same group, and I remember seeing Brother Ernie there when Mike was speaking, I think. I love how God heals and brings reconciliation. Just thought I'd stick this in here.

GLORY! that is amazing! I am QFT here, cause I am sure this will be passed over by ones that have an axe to grind, even though truth has been presented. I am glad this happened!

probinson · Mar 29, 2010

disciple-ofjesus said:
GLORY! that is amazing! I am QFT here, cause I am sure this will be passed over by ones that have an axe to grind, even though truth has been presented. I am glad this happened!

Upon reading Talitha's post, I was so very excited at the prospect of this restoration that I sought to verify it. It's not that I don't trust Talitha. It's just that I like to be able to find sourced information to corroborate what I hear, no matter who says it.

So, the first thing I found was this;
The Vindication of E. Gruen « The Grey Coats

This blog claims to have emailed Ernie Gruen directly to ask if he apologized for his report. The responses that they claim came straight from Ernie vehemently deny that he apologized, and also claim that someone is propagating the lie that he did apologize. With that said, I can also not corroborate those emails with anything else. While they are posted on multiple "discernment" sites, they all reference "The Grey Coats" blog.

So, I went to Ernie Gruen's own website;
Grace and Mercy Ministries

There is no mention of Mike Bickle anywhere on his website, neither for nor against. Personally, I would think if Ernie Gruen was as fired up about the "lies" that were being spread about him as the emails from The Grey Coats blog would lead us to believe, SOMETHING would appear on his own website to that effect, but that's JMO.

So I was not able to either confirm or deny that Ernie ever apologized or repented for his report, and since he died on June 1, 2009, no one can ask him.

disciple-ofjesus · Mar 29, 2010

Ok, that being said, as Christians, lets do the right Biblical thing...throw mud on gossip and rumors! Lets think the worst of people...after all, isn't that what the Bible says to do? I will stick with thinking the best!

talitha · Mar 29, 2010

Wow, I have been on the mission field for two years and I didn't know that Brother Ernie had died. Well, he died a wonderful man. As for restoration, I am aware that it was not a highly trumpeted thing. It wasn't like he and MB became best buds. I don't know a whole lot, but I do know that as a person he had repented, because my pastor told me so. I highly recommend his book on humility - But God Gives More Grace. Anyway, now back to our show.

talitha · Mar 29, 2010

I just read the Grey Coats blog.... the letters from Ernie sound like Ernie, in the way he writes. Now I wonder whether my pastor was mistaken? I do know they both belonged to the Midwest Ministers Fellowship, and I've seen them both in the meetings, etc, and looking back I'm pretty sure that Brother Ernie was there when MB spoke...... I'll have to ask some questions.

Simon Peter · Mar 29, 2010

Yitzchak said:
As I have stated several times , I believe the best source for information about a group is their own testimony and statement of beliefs.

Only if you assume they are telling the truth...

talitha said:
Ernie Gruen is a member of the ministers' association that I have attended meetings with in Missouri. He is my pastor's mentor, and he has somewhere along the line repented of "firing off" that paper. Actually Mike Bickle is associated with the same group, and I remember seeing Brother Ernie there when Mike was speaking, I think. I love how God heals and brings reconciliation. Just thought I'd stick this in here.

probinson said:
So I was not able to either confirm or deny that Ernie ever apologized or repented for his report, and since he died on June 1, 2009, no one can ask him.

The much awaited interview with Ernie Gruen.

Feb 17th, 2008

Thank you, Pastor Gruen for the opportunity to ask you some questions.

1. Did you ever hear the rumor that you recanted “aberrant practices “? If so what was your reaction?

I was more disappointed, than shocked. I was disappointed that Mike Bickle and/or his I-hop staff would willfully, deliberately spread lies and it continues to this day. I receive several e-mails a month asking if I recanted, etc. (See e-mail I received this week in question #7.)

2. What were you going through when you wrote your report?

I really received tremendous support locally, and was not attacked by other ministers, so I was at peace.

3. We know that Kansas City Fellowship taught about a new breed i.e. the omega generation. Would you mind expounding on it a bit? Also do you think they have ceased teaching on this doctrine?

They will not quit teaching any doctrine that makes them “elitist”.

4. Did you truly exonerate Paul Cain from all your previous accusations, if so would you mind telling us what changed your mind?

Mike Bickle himself exposed and discredited him. http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html

5. Did you really apologize to Mr. Bickle for the accusations you made in your report?

This fabrication that I apologized, spread by Mike Bickle and/or his I-hop staff, is a total lie. I never apologized to him–you do not apologize for exposing false prophets and telling the truth.

6. Do you think that John Wimber’s covering addressed the problems you spoke of in your report?

The elders of Full Faith Church agreed to stop sending out the “Aberrant Document” for two reasons: one, John Wimber said he would “clean up the mess at KCF” and provide oversight, and secondly to restore unity in the city. However, before Wimber died, he phoned me and said “I was right all the time in the ‘Aberrant Document’ and that he regretted getting involved with Mike Bickle.” The proof that this phone call occurred is that at this point KCF quit calling themselves “Metro-Vineyard,” and removed themselves from his covering.

7. Do you think that the international house of prayer is spiritually dangerous, if so what concerns you the most?

Please read an excerpt from an e-mail I received this week, with the name withheld:

“Last year I attended an internship at the I.H.O.P. called “Fire in the Night” . . . We had a class called the “Prophetic History” class where in it we listened to audio tapes of Mike Bickle’s experiences in the super-natural realm and prophecies of Bob Jones, Paul Cain . . . After some meetings with the leadership there I decided to leave the program. I was led to the report you had written about the Kansas City Prophets and Mike Bickle exposing them for their lies. After reading this report I was even more disturbed because of its content. I took what I had read back to the leadership at I.H.O.P. and presented it to them asking them if this, “the report you wrote” was true?

They then told me that it was not true and that you had made a public apology to Mike and others for having written it. The leader I spoke to said he was there to witness these things taking place. I wasn’t sure if he was telling the truth so I wanted to ask you a couple of questions personally.”

I challenge Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staff to remove this so-called leader for telling a whopper of a lie!

1 Cor 3:11–For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ (NKJV)

Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs have built their entire foundation on two discredited false prophets.

8. If there was any advice you could give to someone who is considering worshipping at I.H.O.P. what would it be?

Thoroughly read and study these two documents and then pray and make your own decision:

a) The original “Documentation of the Aberrant Practices and Teachings of Kansas City Fellowship.
http://www.intotruth.org/kcp/kcp-gruen.html

b) Paul Cain discredited by Mike Bickle:
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/orrel19.html

9. Do you feel that the stand you took was worth it?

Absolutely!

10. Why did you stop circulating the report?

See answer in question #6. Though Mike Bickle and/or I-Hop staffs unethically look for any reason to slander me, the personal situation involving me occurred several years after the “Aberrant Document” was released. It had and has no relationship to the contents of the document or its release whatsoever.

---

peace,
Simon

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