Corporal Punishment

[Bro_Sam]

Ahh...I was completely with you, right up until this point. This is one of the major things I want people to stop denying--spanking means raising your hand and striking the flesh of another person. That is, by definition, hitting.

OK. You hit your kids and I'll spank mine.

 

[Mling]

OK. What would I read that would negate the fact that he believes that spanking is for the purpose of inflicting pain?



I seriously doubt I'd want to be friends with somebody like that.

the fact that he's opposed to it and doesn't do it.

 

[Mling]

OK. You hit your kids and I'll spank mine.

So by spank, you mean......?

 

[Bro_Sam]

the fact that he's opposed to it and doesn't do it.

He can be opposed to it all he likes, but that doesn't negate the fact that he said that the purpose of spanking is to inflict pain.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Bro_Sam, are you saying that you think Risen-Tree should have his children removed because he doesn't spank? Or simply because he holds that spanking is done to inflict pain?

 

[Bro_Sam]

Bro_Sam, are you saying that you think Risen-Tree should have his children removed because he doesn't spank? Or simply because he holds that spanking is done to inflict pain?

I typically do not respond to moderators, so I'll just say this: why on Earth would I say that there are times when spanking is not an appropriate punishment and that other forms of punishment should be used instead, depending on the child, and then say that someone should have their children taken away for doing what I just said I believe they should do?

 

[Brieuse]

I am vehemently opposed to corporal punishment of anybody other than mentally functioning, free, consenting, adults.

spare the rod, spoil the child.

However I'd like to take a rod to somebody that uses a rod on a child.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

If I'm speaking as staff, I say as much. We have "mod hat" posts. Any other posts is me speaking as a member. Perhaps that will help alleviate any fears you have responding to moderators. You lose out on good conversation that way - moderators aren't bad conversationalists.

I was asking for clarification, that's all. So you think his kids should be taken away because he thinks spanking is for inflicting pain.

That's...interesting.

I typically do not respond to moderators, so I'll just say this: why on Earth would I say that there are times when spanking is not an appropriate punishment and that other forms of punishment should be used instead, depending on the child, and then say that someone should have their children taken away for doing what I just said I believe they should do?

 

[Risen Tree]

So by spank, you mean......?

That reminds me, it never ceases to amaze me how the very people who claim to oppose so-called "politically correct speech" are the VERY ONES WHO TEND TO USE IT. Spank, slap, beat--can someone please explain to me how these synonyms are not...synonyms?

 

[TheOtherHockeyMom]

Children do not have the ability for abstract thought until just before puberty, and thus they are not good reasoners.

To make them stop some things they must be treated with the pain/pleasure methods of rewarding or punishing.

Similarly, sometimes in the military or in other environments giving out a beating is a useful way of reminding someone the importance of something and dissuading them from misbehavior.

Are you really advocating misbehaving beating adults here? Wow...like an employer beating an employee, a husband beating a wife, an officer beating a private, a prof beating a college student? What environments are you talking about?

Really, though, if we accept beating, (hitting, spanking, or whatever you call it) as an acceptable means of correcting what we perceive as misbehavior, it seems better to at least restrict ourselves to people our own size, not infants, toddlers or children.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

That reminds me, it never ceases to amaze me how the very people who claim to oppose so-called "politically correct speech" are the VERY ONES WHO TEND TO USE IT. Spank, slap, beat--can someone please explain to me how these synonyms are not...synonyms?

Because I spank my children and they are not abused. My friend was punched repeatedly in the face by her father. THAT is abuse. When people refer to spanking (done in the right context) as beating, you do a serious disservice to the people who are really being beaten. If my friend was around, she'd verify that. Unfortunately, her abuse led her to take her own life. Got any stats on anyone killing themselves because they were "spanked" as a child?

 

[quatona]

Because I spank my children and they are not abused. My friend was punched repeatedly in the face by her father. THAT is abuse. When people refer to spanking (done in the right context) as beating, you do a serious disservice to the people who are really being beaten.

I am inclined to think that the difference between your and my use of vocabulary is:
While I acknowledge that there are various degrees of beating, I don´t think that the existence of these degrees constitute an essential difference.

I´m not determined to label persons who beat (to whatever degree) their children "abusive" (actually I think we need to look deeper into their motives, convictions and behavioural patterns in order to understand them before we offer them better alternatives), but I definitely don´t think there is such a thing as a "right context" for corporal punishment.

 

[Risen Tree]

Because I spank my children and they are not abused. My friend was punched repeatedly in the face by her father. THAT is abuse. When people refer to spanking (done in the right context) as beating, you do a serious disservice to the people who are really being beaten. If my friend was around, she'd verify that. Unfortunately, her abuse led her to take her own life.

I'm just not clear on whether there really is a line between spanking and abuse, PW. I mean, when does rape become so "minor" that it's no longer rape?

Got any stats on anyone killing themselves because they were "spanked" as a child?

Um, where did I imply as such?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Now we're comparing spanking to raping. Nice. It's kinda like the Godwin. Compare spanking to one of the worst offenses.

Look...you don't spank your kids (or wouldn't if you did, whatever) and that's fine. You don't see me saying "oh, you're raising your kids wrong if you don't spank! You're abusing them by grounding them! Time outs??! Why not just shackle the kid to the wall!!!"

See what I'm saying?

Go after those who are actually abusing their kids. I was spanked as a kid and I never once thought of it as abuse. NEVER. I was appalled to learn that the public schools where I grew up were encouraging children to report their parents to the teachers if they were spanked!

 

[Mling]

Now we're comparing spanking to raping. Nice. It's kinda like the Godwin. Compare spanking to one of the worst offenses.

Look...you don't spank your kids (or wouldn't if you did, whatever) and that's fine. You don't see me saying "oh, you're raising your kids wrong if you don't spank! You're abusing them by grounding them! Time outs??! Why not just shackle the kid to the wall!!!"

See what I'm saying?

Go after those who are actually abusing their kids. I was spanked as a kid and I never once thought of it as abuse. NEVER. I was appalled to learn that the public schools where I grew up were encouraging children to report their parents to the teachers if they were spanked!

In my opinion, the line marking 'abuse' is pretty arbitrary...everybody's parents screw up. Everybody's parents hurt them. Everybody spends at least a few years recovering from their childhood. A certain amount of 'abuse' within any relationship is just...part of the game of being human. People screw up and hurt each other. It doesn't mean the entire relationship needs to be thrown out or denounced.

So, would I say that spanking is abusive? Yes...as an action, it is. Lots of things that lots of parents do are, discretely, abusive actions. Would I label all of them "abusive parents?" No.

Caring for a child well enough 99% of the time can help temper the negative effects of that 1%. Most of the time... to some degree.

That said...yeah...I'd completely say spanking is like rape. It is often forcibly denuding and physically violating a person who is weaker than you. If not that, exactly, it's usually something pretty similar--the force may be mental instead of physical, for example.

As for our reactions...consider the abortion debate---on one side, you've got people who think something is ok. Maybe not *good,* but an acceptable thing to do. On the other side, there are people who fully believe it is *murder.* When that sort of view is involved, you can't just expect people to nicely agree to disagree. I have never once told a pro-lifer "if you don't like abortion, don't get one and leave it at that,' because I know they can't. It's unreasonable to expect a person to walk away and say "Well, that's their choice," when they think somebody is chosing to commit murder.

The same sort of thing is going on here. We are seeing children being violated and, as a result, adults and society as whole being *badly* damaged. It is not reasonable to expect us to just pleasantly agree to disagree.
It is wrong.
It is harmful.
It is bad for everybody involved.

OK, people may say "I was spanked and I turned out ok," but people are notoriously horrible judges of how they turned out. More than that, I believe that the negative effects of even moderate spanking are terribly insidious, and stunt a person's ability to think in ways that that person would not be aware of in themselves. I've watched a friend claim to be utterly un-exploitable. She was just too strong to be tricked! Well...no...all it took was for somebody to have the slightest bit of authority over her, and she believed she had to do anything they said. But, as she believed it was right and proper to be that way, she couldn't see the contradiction.

Another guy in a class I was in claimed, again, that being spanked was perfectly good for him. His parents had been calm and controlled about it, etc. etc., and he turned out just fine. Well, he turned out to obviously parrot his parents beliefs without thought. An absolute throwback to the 1950's. He was openly racist, openly sexist, talked about this *craaaaazy* liberal girl he had dated once, when he was going through a rebellious phase, who was *soooo* out there, she actually thought she was his equal! But, again, he believed he turned out totally fine, because he defined the way he turned out as being what fine is. It was everybody else who was messed up!

The sexual things are what make me bristle and shudder, but this is the deeper, more thoughtful reason why we are opposed. America, more than most other countries in the developed world, needs to learn how to evaluate ideas based on their merit, and not on the authority or tradition, behind them. America, especially, needs to learn how to find non-violent solutions to problems.

America needs to stop beating these qualities out of our citizens.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

My parents never abused me. I don't care what you think or believe. I did turn out okay. I have a normal healthy relationship with my husband, and my children thus far are good, with a few imperfections here and there, to be expected.

Having been date raped and having counseled women who have been raped, I find the idea that spanking a child is comparable to rape incredibly insensitive and ridiculous.

So we will just have to agree to disagree. You can say I abuse my kids all you want. Doesn't make it so, even though you and others seem to be quite bent on it.

 

[Risen Tree]

In my opinion, the line marking 'abuse' is pretty arbitrary...everybody's parents screw up. Everybody's parents hurt them. Everybody spends at least a few years recovering from their childhood. A certain amount of 'abuse' within any relationship is just...part of the game of being human. People screw up and hurt each other. It doesn't mean the entire relationship needs to be thrown out or denounced.

So, would I say that spanking is abusive? Yes...as an action, it is. Lots of things that lots of parents do are, discretely, abusive actions. Would I label all of them "abusive parents?" No.

Caring for a child well enough 99% of the time can help temper the negative effects of that 1%. Most of the time... to some degree.

That said...yeah...I'd completely say spanking is like rape. It is often forcibly denuding and physically violating a person who is weaker than you. If not that, exactly, it's usually something pretty similar--the force may be mental instead of physical, for example.

As for our reactions...consider the abortion debate---on one side, you've got people who think something is ok. Maybe not *good,* but an acceptable thing to do. On the other side, there are people who fully believe it is *murder.* When that sort of view is involved, you can't just expect people to nicely agree to disagree. I have never once told a pro-lifer "if you don't like abortion, don't get one and leave it at that,' because I know they can't. It's unreasonable to expect a person to walk away and say "Well, that's their choice," when they think somebody is chosing to commit murder.

The same sort of thing is going on here. We are seeing children being violated and, as a result, adults and society as whole being *badly* damaged. It is not reasonable to expect us to just pleasantly agree to disagree.
It is wrong.
It is harmful.
It is bad for everybody involved.

OK, people may say "I was spanked and I turned out ok," but people are notoriously horrible judges of how they turned out. More than that, I believe that the negative effects of even moderate spanking are terribly insidious, and stunt a person's ability to think in ways that that person would not be aware of in themselves. I've watched a friend claim to be utterly un-exploitable. She was just too strong to be tricked! Well...no...all it took was for somebody to have the slightest bit of authority over her, and she believed she had to do anything they said. But, as she believed it was right and proper to be that way, she couldn't see the contradiction.

Another guy in a class I was in claimed, again, that being spanked was perfectly good for him. His parents had been calm and controlled about it, etc. etc., and he turned out just fine. Well, he turned out to obviously parrot his parents beliefs without thought. An absolute throwback to the 1950's. He was openly racist, openly sexist, talked about this *craaaaazy* liberal girl he had dated once, when he was going through a rebellious phase, who was *soooo* out there, she actually thought she was his equal! But, again, he believed he turned out totally fine, because he defined the way he turned out as being what fine is. It was everybody else who was messed up!

The sexual things are what make me bristle and shudder, but this is the deeper, more thoughtful reason why we are opposed. America, more than most other countries in the developed world, needs to learn how to evaluate ideas based on their merit, and not on the authority or tradition, behind them. America, especially, needs to learn how to find non-violent solutions to problems.

America needs to stop beating these qualities out of our citizens.

Mling wins. I have nothing to add to this excellent post.

 

[Zebra1552]

Committing acts of violence in an attempt to derail misbehavior (that might include violence) makes no sense and merely demonstrates that hitting is okay. It's hypocritical and entirely unnecessary. One can just as easily talk with them or put them in a time out. It's equivalent to yelling.

 

[Mling]

My parents never abused me. I don't care what you think or believe. I did turn out okay. I have a normal healthy relationship with my husband, and my children thus far are good, with a few imperfections here and there, to be expected.

As I said above, doing most things right 99% of the time can temper the effect of what's done wrong. Or, as I put it earlier in the thread, most harmful things have a minimum dose. A tiny shred of lead isn't going to do a lot of damage, most of the time. Doesn't make lead good for you, though.

Having been date raped and having counseled women who have been raped, I find the idea that spanking a child is comparable to rape incredibly insensitive and ridiculous.

Any time a person is sexually hurt against their will, the action is 'like rape.' In the same way that any time a person is made to work to an unhealthy degree for inadequate compensation, with too few ways of escape, the situation is like slavery. Yes, there are differences, that's why I say 'like,' instead of 'is.' Slavery, rape and the Holocaust are extremes, and we rightfully have extreme emotional reactions to them, but they don't exist completely on their own. One extreme doesn't overshadow the rest of the spectrum. Nothing in the world is so utterly unique that comparisons can't be made to it.

So we will just have to agree to disagree. You can say I abuse my kids all you want. Doesn't make it so, even though you and others seem to be quite bent on it.

like I said above, everybody abuses their kid in some way or another. People are resilient, including kids. People also can learn to do better.
And no, I will not. This is not something I can agree to disagree over.

 

[rambot]

My parents never abused me. I don't care what you think or believe. I did turn out okay. I have a normal healthy relationship with my husband, and my children thus far are good, with a few imperfections here and there, to be expected.

Having been date raped and having counseled women who have been raped, I find the idea that spanking a child is comparable to rape incredibly insensitive and ridiculous.

So we will just have to agree to disagree. You can say I abuse my kids all you want. Doesn't make it so, even though you and others seem to be quite bent on it.

I don't think he's comparing them so much as simply putting them on the same side of a spectrum.


As for abuse by parents, it can take many forms. Abuse is really defined more as an outcome than a process. You can say something that you think is funny that they think is really cutting. If that kind of thing happens often enough to hurt someone, I would consider it abuse.
It depends on how the child takes it (unless, of course it's physical).