Convince me of Continuationism.

Albion · Jul 13, 2020

topher694 said:
I mean read your own words: "if the gifts ceased". Logically, by definition you really actually DO have to prove the gifts ceased to prove your statement.

Yes, but I want the reader to think the matter through. I could instead begin with a bunch of conclusions of my own, but that's not how to walk the reader through the examination of the problem in any sort of systematic way.

So yes, we pose a question: "IF the gifts ceased, then ???" After some consideration of everything, we finally come to which of the two possible conclusions makes the most sense.

Cheers.

Albion · Jul 13, 2020

Guojing said:
there was more than one good news about Jesus in the New Testament.

that was my point

The Gospel is commonly called "the Good News." In fact, that is literally what the word means (God + spel / Good + News). It's not as though other news might not be good, but that's what the term refers to.

Guojing · Jul 13, 2020

Albion said:
The Gospel is commonly called "the Good News." In fact, that is literally what the word means (God + spel / Good + News). It's not as though other news might not be good, but that's what the term refers to.

Yes you are correct. There is only one good news that saves now, found in 1 cor 15:1-4

however it does not follow that God had no other good news for mankind before that

Albion · Jul 13, 2020

Guojing said:
Yes you are correct. There is only one good news that saves now, found in 1 cor 15:1-4

however it does not follow that God had no other good news for mankind before that

True, but irrelevant. It was the word Gospel that was causing the confusion.

And the message of the Gospel is that the Son of God assumed our human nature, took our sins upon himself, and made possible our salvation.

Other news that is good of course is to be found in scripture but that's another topic for another discussion.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Word and Spirit said:
Before Jim was associated with Church On The Way in Van Nuys, California he was a missionary in Columbia. He got a call to the bedside of a man that was dying. It was a ways away and it took some time to get to his home, but he finally did and prayed for him, he opened his eyes and he was healed. They were all astounded because he had died over an hour before. Why you people think the news would be interested is beyond me. They are as skeptical as you are. And Jim didn't do it for publicity.

A businessman that was a member of our church took some teaching tapes of Jack to Taiwan. The men from Taiwan scoffed at the message until they heard on part of the tape Jack praying in tongues, and they understood every word. They stopped scoffing.

What will make you stop being an unbelieving scoffer?

I may have gotten the dates wrong, but CNN was interested in interviewing him to find out who his "deep throat" was at the Vatican. They weren't interested any longer when Tom told them, God. I'm sure you recognize the mindset.

Jim Tolle is a part of the Four Square Church.
The Four Square church was founded by a Pastor woman (Aimee Mcpherson) whose morals were questionable at best. Aimee seen a vision of faces of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle (Which is described to us in Ezekiel 1). Mcpherson interpreted these four different faces as the fourfold gospel of salvation, baptism in the Holy Spirit, divine healing, and the Second Coming of Christ.

A Look at the Life of Amiee Mcpherson
(Note: I agree with the article, but that does not mean I may agree with everything this author or website teaches or believes).

According to Mcpherson's theology, speaking in tongues was evidence that an individual was a part of the “true church.” In my opinion: This is a false teaching.

Aimee Mcpherson reported seeing in a vision the faces of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle as described in Ezekiel 1. She interpreted these four faces as the fourfold gospel of salvation, baptism in the Holy Spirit, divine healing, and the Second Coming of Christ.

As for the person named Jack in your church praying in tongues on a tape:

Can a person know another language today by studying it on their own?
While God certainly can give someone the power to speak in a foreign language like He did with the early church, what evidence suggests that there was no way Jack could not have simply learned that language in his own time? There are people today who speak multiple languages fluently.

This does not have anything to do with a lack of God's capabilities. For with God: Nothing is impossible. I believe God can heal today. But I need confirmation in Scripture that Continuationism is true, and that Cessationism is not. Lay forth your best argument using Scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Jesus did not heal 100% because of lack of faith among the people...

I am aware of this fact. This does not disprove Cessationism and or make for a good case for Continuationism. Surely there are going to be a small percentage who will have faith to be healed. But we have to be careful about this. Some (like Aimee Mcpherson) have pushed physical healing as a part of the gospel. She clearly was not a prophetess of God by us looking at the reported fruits of her own life.

You said:
Paul like all of us have seasons of service in life - also the account we have of his healings are not exhaustive.

I believe the reason why Paul no longer was able to show that he could heal later was because the gift of healing was to confirm the Word and that he was indeed a man of God. Once that was established, the sign gifts in his life were no longer needed. The job was accomplished. It does not make sense in the Continuationist view for Paul's gift of healing to go away.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Guojing said:
So you do agree that the good news that save us now is not

repent and believe Jesus is the son of God (John 20:31) correct?

we are in agreement then

my main point in relation to this topic is that that previous gospel to Israel, was accompanied by signs and wonders.

so they go together. If you believe that signs are for today, you must also believe that we are to preach that Jesus is promised messiah and that alone will save you, which is what the entire book of John was about (John 20:30-31)

Jesus said an evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign. The Jews looked for signs. The Gentiles sought after wisdom. I believe Israel will repent as a nation and accept Jesus as their Messiah. But this will be during the End Times. One could make the argument that this is a reason why the sign gifts must continue. While this may sound like a good argument, the signs of Jesus' coming are the signs given to us in Revelation like with the sun and sky going black, the moon turning blood red, etc. There are other signs in Revelation showing that the Bible is true and Jesus will return at His second coming. So the sign gifts in the early church do not need to continue to show the coming of Jesus in Revelation. While I would like to believe in Continuationism, the evidence in Scripture seems to not be there or there are no strong verses to support it; Especially in light of Cessationist verses. But this is what this thread is about. Show me. Make your case. Make me believe using the Bible.

Carl Emerson · Jul 13, 2020

Well Paul would have given any gift back to be controlled totally by the Holy Spirit.

Then it ceases to operate at will.

Whether or not Paul was required to continue in the gift means nothing. To build a theology around what is not mentioned is folly.

The church fathers confirm that the gifts continued well after Paul.

Tertullian is recorded to have said that anyone not capable of casting out a demon was not a true believer. Not sure how one would perform such an act without the gift of the Discernment of Spirits.

Carl Emerson · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Make me believe using the Bible.

Therein lies the falacy of the thread.

If the gifts ceased or continued after the bible was written, there would be no biblical record of such a matter.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Silly Uncle Wayne said:
Therein lies your problem.

If you come at the scriptures with no preconceptions then you will read of how spiritual gifts appear and are used in Acts. You will see scattered references in the letters and one very long teaching (3 chapters) on the subject. Within that passage you don't find cessationism, you have to insert it.

The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts.

Source:
When Did the Gift of Tongues Cease?
(Note: I agree with the article, but that does not mean I may agree with everything this author or website teaches or believes).

Generally Cessationists believe that the miraculous gifting of the Spirit (not miracles in general done by God) had ended with the close of the creation of the book of Revelation in 96AD. The sign gifts would have been in operation to warn the Jew of the coming judgment upon their temple in 70AD.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Therein lies the falacy of the thread.

If the gifts ceased or continued after the bible was written, there would be no biblical record of such a matter.

The thing is that Scripture does allude to the ceasing of the sign gifts.
It's up to the Continuationist to disprove these arguments that Cessationists use by explaining things with Scripture. So far, I have not seen a good case for Continuationism. So it's not a fallacy to ask believers to state their case biblically for what they believe and to defend the faith against what they believe is not correct.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Well Paul would have given any gift back to be controlled totally by the Holy Spirit.

Then it ceases to operate at will.

Whether or not Paul was required to continue in the gift means nothing. To build a theology around what is not mentioned is folly.

The church fathers confirm that the gifts continued well after Paul.

Tertullian is recorded to have said that anyone not capable of casting out a demon was not a true believer. Not sure how one would perform such an act without the gift of the Discernment of Spirits.

The writings of church fathers is not Scripture. While I am sure there are truths we can glean from them, we cannot base our faith exclusively on them as the basis for our faith. Men can be fallible in their beliefs in views even back then.

Carl Emerson · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The thing is that Scripture does allude to the ceasing of the sign gifts.
It's up to the Continuationist to disprove these arguments that Cessationists use by explaining things with Scripture. So far, I have not seen a good case for Continuationism. So it's not a fallacy to ask believers to state their case biblically for what they believe and to defend the faith against what they believe is not correct.

But the scripture is not exhaustive so non-mention is not proof of anything.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
But the scripture is not exhaustive so non-mention is not proof of anything.

Scripture is where we base our faith upon (Romans 10:17). If the Scriptures slowly show Paul not being able to heal anymore, for whatever the reason, it is not the sole doctrine for Cessationism, but it is merely one link in the chain that shows the miraculous gifts have most likely ceased.

James 1 is key. James 1 describes both a “mirror” (i.e. glass), and something that is “perfect” in regards to the communicated Word of God (i.e. Scripture). Paul also talks about a mirror and this perfect ceasing in 1 Corinthians 13. Coincidence? Well, Christians are to be like good Bereans and compare Scripture with Scripture. We also see long periods in the Bible where no miracles were done after Moses and Elijah, as well. This again shows us a pattern in Scripture. Another coincidence? The purpose of the sign gifts was to confirm the Word (Mark 16:20).

I have yet to have a Continuationist explain these points to me with Scripture or offer a counter explanation that has deep spiritual meaning for me according to what God's Word says. Hence, the reason why I created this thread. I am open to hearing the Continuationist case so as to explain these things.

Word and Spirit · Jul 13, 2020

chevyontheriver said:
Not sure I agree. There have been gifts throughout the history of the Church, sometimes more and sometimes less. And miracles have continued. It wasn't a short term thing that went away and has now finally come back.

If you want to believe that, go ahead. I might hope it will happen soon, but I'm not going to set any timetable.

To me none of this is fighting stuff. I gather that to many it is, with the risk that some will really get bent out of shape by this thread.

I'm not sure what about the early and latter rain that you don't agree with. That doesn't mean that the summer doesn't have showers here and there, but the Church became mostly parched and worldly, with the main drenchings of the Spirit falling at the beginning, and since the last century. I'm not sure how you would interpret the early and latter rain, or how you would describe the season in between because you haven't said. Do you honestly believe the Church has always been on fire for God?

As for Jesus coming soon, if the asteroid that NASA has been watching and will be here on April 13, 2029 doesn't hit the earth, but will still be close enough to take out a few satelittes and therefore is not the fulfillment of Revelation 8, I'll prepare anyway.

Word and Spirit · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
Jim Tolle is a part of the Four Square Church.
The Four Square church was founded by a Pastor woman (Aimee Mcpherson) whose morals were questionable at best. Aimee seen a vision of faces of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle (Which is described to us in Ezekiel 1). Mcpherson interpreted these four different faces as the fourfold gospel of salvation, baptism in the Holy Spirit, divine healing, and the Second Coming of Christ.

A Look at the Life of Amiee Mcpherson

According to Mcpherson's theology, speaking in tongues was evidence that an individual was a part of the “true church.” In my opinion: This is a false teaching.

Aimee Mcpherson reported seeing in a vision the faces of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle as described in Ezekiel 1. She interpreted these four faces as the fourfold gospel of salvation, baptism in the Holy Spirit, divine healing, and the Second Coming of Christ.

As for the person named Jack in your church praying in tongues on a tape:

Can a person know another language today by studying it on their own?
While God certainly can give someone the power to speak in a foreign language like He did with the early church, what evidence suggests that there was no way Jack could not have simply learned that language in his own time? There are people today who speak multiple languages fluently.

This does not have anything to do with a lack of God's capabilities. For with God: Nothing is impossible. I believe God can heal today. But I need confirmation in Scripture that Continuationism is true, and that Cessationism is not. Lay forth your best argument using Scripture.

Why me? I told you Who to ask. I've learned that there are those who are true seekers who WILL receive, and those who are born scoffers, and nothing will change their minds. Besides I see you prefer google, to asking God.

topher694 · Jul 13, 2020

Bible Highlighter said:
The thing is that Scripture does allude to the ceasing of the sign gifts.
It's up to the Continuationist to disprove these arguments that Cessationists use by explaining things with Scripture. So far, I have not seen a good case for Continuationism. So it's not a fallacy to ask believers to state their case biblically for what they believe and to defend the faith against what they believe is not correct.

Hogwash.
A) That is not how the burden of proof works
B) There are plenty of "good cases" for it. You just clearly decided ahead of time what you believe making this entire thread rather pointless.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Word and Spirit said:
Why me? I told you Who to ask. I've learned that there are those who are true seekers who WILL receive, and those who are born scoffers, and nothing will change their minds. Besides I see you prefer google, to asking God.

False slander. I did ask God about the truth of this topic before. But information in history is not our enemy, though. While I will admit that records in history could be written in a way to discolor the truth of certain individuals, you cannot change what that church currently believes today (Which of course stems from history).

Take for example the Latter Day Rain teaching. It is saying that the the Asuza Street Revival (the birth of the Pentecostal movement today) was a latter rain event. Pentecostals will sometimes condemn certain Charismatic groups like the Toronto Blessing because of the crazy and wild things that went on there. Little do they realize that the Asuza Street Revival had similar things take place, as well.

AZUSA STREET-Birth of a Lie
(Note: I agree with the article, but that does not mean I may agree with everything this author or website teaches or believes).

Again, I am not discounting that Continuationism may still be true amongst a sea of error.
I just need somebody to defend it using Scripture.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

topher694 said:
Hogwash.
A) That is not how the burden of proof works
B) There are plenty of "good cases" for it. You just clearly decided ahead of time what you believe making this entire thread rather pointless.

Then where are they? Where are the Bible answers for the Cessationist points that I have raised?
Again, the thread is not pointless. I am asking for believers to put forth their case for Continuationism. If somebody knows of such a biblical case (even from another website), then they should quote from there or something. So no the thread is not pointless anymore than my asking to show the Biblical evidence for other Biblical topics.

Bible Highlighter · Jul 13, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Nonsense, the world needs that evidence more than ever...

The Bible has plenty of other evidences that confirm it to be divine in origin.

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

We have to remember what the purpose of the sign gifts was for. The signs gifts were for the unbelieving Jew because Jews sought after a sign and Gentiles sought after wisdom.

Convince me of Continuationism.

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