Convertitis Revisited

[Michael G]

There is nothing wrong with having an English Liturgy.

Actually, Divine Liturgy in the vernacular language (the language a given people speak) is the Canonical norm for Orthodoxy. Thus the only proper way to pray a liturgy in the US is to have it prayed in English (or Spanish if the parish is predominantly Spanish speaking).

 

[choirfiend]

Or in the native language of whoever the parish is made up of, mostly, which could be Greek, Romanian, Russian, etc. Congregations of people who dont speak english (important point!) should worship in the language they speak. If the congregation learns English, English should start getting worked in, as all immigrant populations eventually gain the language of the area they live in...

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Actually, Divine Liturgy in the vernacular language (the language a given people speak) is the Canonical norm for Orthodoxy. Thus the only proper way to pray a liturgy in the US is to have it prayed in English (or Spanish if the parish is predominantly Spanish speaking).

I agree.

It's just that some converts are afraid of any little bit of a foreign language in the Divine Liturgy, even a little Ektenia done in the language. I've said it before but I just think it is vital to being Orthodox to remember one's heritage. I have not one drop of Slavic in me.. but I am still indebted to the Russian Church for my parish as one under an Antiochian is indebted to the Syrian Christians and, so, do a small part in the language of one's Patriarch (or Patriarch before gaining autonomy) is important. As a protestant I felt no debt to anyone of my past... I also felt no connection to my German heritage. As an Orthodox I learned that I am indebted to at least someone for every aspect of my life... and alot of of those someones are no passed on from this life and I will never know them. But doing the little Ektenia makes me stop and recognize that my Church did not come out of a bubble.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that it should be some kind of Canon. It's just good, spiritual courtesy.

John

PS: I will agree, though, and reiterate that a Parish should do the Liturgy iin the Language that will best serve the spiritual needs of its people (as long as decent translations are offered) and in the US this will generally be English, or Spanish (as Michael pointed out).

 

[Emmanuel-A]

On the "convertitits" subject, I liked this article by Fr Andrew Philips :

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/brorthoc.htm

 

[ManM]

If I may chip in my two cents, I think the entire issue revolves around identifying the things that are truly important.

 

[Khaleas]

On the "convertitits" subject, I liked this article by Fr Andrew Philips :

http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/brorthoc.htm

Maybe we should make this a sticky... How did you deal with rough times... in addition to the How did you become Orthodox thread?...

Yes, we deal with things differently and another persons way might not be right for us but maybe it can help us cope now and again...

Thanks for posting that Emmanuel-A!!

 

[Michael G]

If I may chip in my two cents, I think the entire issue revolves around identifying the things that are truly important.

Having the liturgy and services in the language that everyone understands is one of the most essential elements of Orthodoxy. The Fathers of the Church insisted on it and the current situation in the US with liturgies in every language under the sun even though most of us do not speak those languages natively is completely uncanonical. It is time we get over the ethnocentrism and stop being affraid to admit that we are American, and for the most part English speaking. Having the liturgy in Greek, Slavonic, Serb, Ukranian, etc makes it no more holy than having it in English. Dare I say, it makes it less holy because few of us truly understand what is being said in those languages.

 

[Wiffey]

Having the liturgy and services in the language that everyone understands is one of the most essential elements of Orthodoxy. The Fathers of the Church insisted on it and the current situation in the US with liturgies in every language under the sun even though most of us do not speak those languages natively is completely uncanonical. It is time we get over the ethnocentrism and stop being affraid to admit that we are American, and for the most part English speaking. Having the liturgy in Greek, Slavonic, Serb, Ukranian, etc makes it no more holy than having it in English. Dare I say, it makes it less holy because few of us truly understand what is being said in those languages.

Tell it brother! Preach!


[It also makes us look unwelcoming, clannish & xenophobic. Not the best way to make a good impression...]

 

[Matrona]

Cute character, Wiffey!

 

[MariaRegina]

Tell it brother! Preach!


[It also makes us look unwelcoming, clannish & xenophobic. Not the best way to make a good impression...]

I resemble that!

Once when I was inquiring into Orthodoxy I called a Greek Orthodox parish, and the priest asked me,

"Do you speak Greek?"

I said, "No." And he replied,

"Well, maybe you might be happier in another parish."

Again, I think we all have to be more patient and a little more understanding. Several Greek priests have admitted that they have failed in evangelism.

 

[Wiffey]

Cute character, Wiffey!

Thanks...though sadly there is no Cuban booty "Junk In The Trunk" feature.
Or acryllic nails.
Ah, well. You can't have everything.

 

[Marjorie]

Thanks...though sadly there is no Cuban booty "Junk In The Trunk" feature.

My five-year-old cousin Zoë, who is adopted from Guatamala, used to go around saying she had a "J-Lo booty," hahaha.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Having the liturgy and services in the language that everyone understands is one of the most essential elements of Orthodoxy. The Fathers of the Church insisted on it and the current situation in the US with liturgies in every language under the sun even though most of us do not speak those languages natively is completely uncanonical. It is time we get over the ethnocentrism and stop being affraid to admit that we are American, and for the most part English speaking. Having the liturgy in Greek, Slavonic, Serb, Ukranian, etc makes it no more holy than having it in English. Dare I say, it makes it less holy because few of us truly understand what is being said in those languages.

Right... but I don't think this is a huge problem except in parishes where most of the people are immigrants... and Greek Churches. But the Greek Churches are coming around slowly but surely. My parish used to have a priest who was completely fluent in Russian (and when I say fluent, I mean so much that the Russians there thoiught he was Russian) and Church slovanik. Because there are some Russians in town (at the University mostly) he ask for permission from the Bishop to serve a liturgy completely in Church Slovanik on Saturday mornings. This was wonderful because the Russians felt so at home. For some reason though, some people got petty about it and complained to the bishop that this should not be done as we are American etc. Unfortunately the priest left some years later, and the new priest can no longer get permission to do this on Saturdays. There needs to be a balance. Just as some cradles are afraid of admitting that they live in America and so therefore it would (usually) make sense to do the Divine Liturgy in English, many converts are equally afraid of anything "ethnic" and try to sanatize the DL or their parish of anything that seems ethnic. Obviously this is impossible in an Orthodox Church, but this crusade creates an unwarranted fear of any little bit of non-English language to be used in the Liturgy... even at the expence of a Liturgy on Saturdays these people don't even have to attend.

So, a balance between the two needs to be found. What is going to serve the Parish best spiritually without going overboard and giving into unwarranted fears by either party. This needs to be discovered on a parish-to-parish level.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I resemble that!

Once when I was inquiring into Orthodoxy I called a Greek Orthodox parish, and the priest asked me,

"Do you speak Greek?"

I said, "No." And he replied,

"Well, maybe you might be happier in another parish."

Exhibit A. lol

 

[choirfiend]

Or in the native language of whoever the parish is made up of, mostly, which could be Greek, Romanian, Russian, etc. Congregations of people who dont speak english (important point!) should worship in the language they speak. If the congregation learns English, English should start getting worked in, as all immigrant populations eventually gain the language of the area they live in...

My sentiments exactly...

 

[ManM]

Having the liturgy and services in the language that everyone understands is one of the most essential elements of Orthodoxy. The Fathers of the Church insisted on it and the current situation in the US with liturgies in every language under the sun even though most of us do not speak those languages natively is completely uncanonical. It is time we get over the ethnocentrism and stop being affraid to admit that we are American, and for the most part English speaking. Having the liturgy in Greek, Slavonic, Serb, Ukranian, etc makes it no more holy than having it in English. Dare I say, it makes it less holy because few of us truly understand what is being said in those languages.

I've presented this argument to various priests several times myself, and every single one of them agreed. The problem is that those canons don't really provide guidance for our situation. The Orthodox who came to America for evangelical reasons did translate things into English. The Orthodox who came to America as an escape from their troubled country brought their Orthodoxy for themselves. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. If I chant a hymn in Greek, I lose much of the congregation. If I chant in English, I feel like I am stealing the service from the Greeks.

So, is it right to conquer an immigrant church and plant the American flag in it? I'm not so sure. I hope that in time the OCA and the Antiochian churches will grow so that the issue becomes moot.

 

[Kolya]

So, is it right to conquer an immigrant church and plant the American flag in it? I'm not so sure. I hope that in time the OCA and the Antiochian churches will grow so that the issue becomes moot.

I have the same problem in my country. So we solved it by having English liturgy one Saturday a month, and the Slavonic Liturgy every Sunday. I also can't conquer an immigrant church that was establised for the Russians and Ukranians. But I do have to attend an Orthodox church, so I compromise.

 

[MariaRegina]

It's funny for me too as I have sung in Greek only to have a native speaker of Greek ask me if I was from Athens - quite a complement I am told. Yet I cannot speak a word of Katharevousa or Dhimotiki. According to the British linguist Ronald Wardhaugh, Dhimotiki is spoken in Athens today and is the standard now, although perhaps our Prodromos would know better.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I've presented this argument to various priests several times myself, and every single one of them agreed. The problem is that those canons don't really provide guidance for our situation. The Orthodox who came to America for evangelical reasons did translate things into English. The Orthodox who came to America as an escape from their troubled country brought their Orthodoxy for themselves. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. If I chant a hymn in Greek, I lose much of the congregation. If I chant in English, I feel like I am stealing the service from the Greeks.

So, is it right to conquer an immigrant church and plant the American flag in it? I'm not so sure. I hope that in time the OCA and the Antiochian churches will grow so that the issue becomes moot.

I think that gives a very balanced picture of the dilemma. I think the best thing is to do what I have seen at the local Greek Parish here. Before this new priest came, I would say some 65% of the Liturgy was in Greek. When he came it remained like this for a while. Then I would notice the next time I visited there was a little less Greek. Now it is down drastically and mostly in English but there are still a good many parts of it in Greek. Some of the hymns are done in Greek (as they are all printed i the Bulletin in English every week), and some of the shorter Litanies. Sometimes a the petitions in a Litany switch between Greek and English, every other one. (The book to follow along witht he Liturgy is in Greek on one side and English on the other.) I say "sometimes" not because they jsut make it up as thhey go along but because I only attend there every once and a while (it starts a half hour later so when I wake up late lol) so I don't really know there pattern but I am sure they have it planned out nicely.

I must say it is a very nice balance. It certainly pays hommage to their forefathers' sacrifice and keeps in enough Greek (and tapered it slowly enough) to not alienate the the Greek parishoners while being mostly in English so as to not lose the rest of the congregation. My take on visitors is this. The first time I introduced the DL to my gf was at a parish that was very very welcoming, but that was also very zealous to the point of kind of wierding her out. She didn't like all of the attention and felt very out of place with the people there. This on top of the DL being completely foreign to her anyhow, she was completely wierded out. Later, when she would finally get up enought courage to go again, we went to the Greek parish and she loved it completely, Greek and all. The people weren't all in her face (And they weren't shunning either). She was still felt a little alienated, but this had nothing to do with the language (becuase after that we started going to my Russian parish where it is all in English until recently when we have finally been granted permission to do the small litany in Slovanik) but just because the DL is so very different.

Now, this was my gf's reactions. I have taken other people to the convert parish and they loved it completely and one even joined there. Everyone's different. I don't think the answer is "put it all in English and take out all signs of anyother language and they will come". The answer is: be yourself in accordance with the Church adn the right people will come. All of our parishes ahve their own flavors and personalities. Sure, an Orthodox parish in an area where there is no other parish has a greater call to "be everything to everyone" but in the end it can only do so much.

If someone really finds the true faith, they will learn to adapt to that with which they aren't yet comfortable. There is a parish here in town that I would never want to attend. But, if it were the only parish within two hours, I would certainly go there and be thankful that that parish is so close to me.