Convertitis Revisited

[MariaRegina]

But in response to the OP on this question. One major significance of this is, that it is an indicator that people are searching, and wanting to return to the historical Church. I saw a thread in GT a few days ago which was titled something like this: "What is the minimum required to be a Christian?" This to me is a problem with our (and by "our" I am indicating American because I have no idea about other countries) mindset. What is the minimum I have to do and still be safe? What is the minimum I have to do and still have a good life? It has reduced Christianity to a skeleton, and left it's people hungry.

Good point.

We must be careful not to be lukewarm.

When I was in grade school (8th grade), we had a character (the class clown) who would ask the priest: "How long can I kiss my girl friend before it is a mortal sin." The next class he would say, "How long can I pet my girl friend before it is a mortal sin." He wanted to know exactly where that line separating heaven from hell was, so that he could inch right up to it and still get to heaven.

Some people just don't learn. No matter what the priest said, that kid just didn't listen and then would ask another stupid question. Of course, he enjoyed the laughter and the class attention.

 

[Eusebios]

I agree that we, those of us who are American converts, especially those of us who are Protetsant converts bring with us our own peculiar sey of baggae. Cradles have a similar "itis" oft confusing ethnicity with Orthodoxy, and it seems, at least to me, that it is equally dangerous, and in fact, quite similar to our own disease.
To me, though both can certainly be cause for tension, they seem almost necessary, in order to remind us of our deep need for Christ, His body and blood, and the rest of the sacraments given to us by the HOLY CHURCH.
We need to remember that the Church, like Christ it's head, is at once fully Divine and fully human. At the same time, we need to remember our Saviors words in response to St. Peter's affirmation that He would build His Church, and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it.
In Xp,
Eusebios.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Cradles have a similar "itis" oft confusing ethnicity with Orthodoxy, and it seems, at least to me, that it is equally dangerous, and in fact, quite similar to our own disease.

This is a good and important point to make. I want to make it clear that i was not saying that cradles don't have their own pitfalls and we are just these unworthy slobs who can't do anything right. However, since most all of us ARE converts (and there are very few cradles here) it seemed more pertinent to TAW to focus on OUR pitfalls rather than THEIRS. If Konstantinos or VickY wished to start a thread, it would proper for them to complain about the pitfals of cradlitis rather than convertitis just as it would see a bit presumptuous for the majority of us to start a thread on cradlitis. I honestly was not trying to condemn us. When I said "I have nothing to offer Orthodoxy except my obediance etc..." I meant that... but that is true about everyone (cradle or convert), but I think perhaps us Americans are more guilty of the "cowboy mentality" (wanting to come in and fix everything) than the cradles (whereas they might be accused of xenophobic mentality... I'm not judging... this is only for comparison's sake). This "cowboy mentality" and everything else I spoke of may not really apply to any of you here. But I know that it definitely has applied to me in the past, and I fear I am still very guilty of it to this day (just look at some of my past posts) and i know that many of my convert friends also recognize this in them (although I definitely have other convert friends and acquaintances who don't seem to have this problem). I just thought that perhaps there were others here in TAW that might relate to this. If you don't, that's fine. If you do, welcome to the club.. we'll work together

John

PS: Photini, I'm sorry if I discouraged you at all. I really am sorry and please forgive me for that.

 

[MariaRegina]

Thanks Monica. And please pardon my overreaction. I try not to let that happen, but sometimes things come to a breaking point you know? I definitely need to move, that is a given, and confirmed by a priest-monk who was very dear to me. Seems like everytime moving is within reach something happens to stall me. (This is a phenomenon in the spiritual life too I suppose....everytime I seem to make progress, a new issue arrives that tries to pull me back.)

Why don't we all pray for Photini this Sunday during the Divine Liturgy -- pray to all the saints, especially St. Nicholas, who always finds the things that are necessary.

Photini needs another good job and a home where she will be close to a church and her job.

Throught the prayers of St. Nicholas, O Christ our God, have mercy on your handmaiden, Photini, and save her.

 

[Photini]

Why don't we all pray for Photini this Sunday during the Divine Liturgy -- pray to all the saints, especially St. Nicholas, who always finds the things that are necessary.

Photini needs another good job and a home where she will be close to a church and her job.

Throught the prayers of St. Nicholas, O Christ our God, have mercy on your handmaiden, Photini, and save her.

Thank you Elizabeth.

 

[Shubunkin]

You guys wouldn't believe the problems I've experienced trying to go to an Orthodox Church.

And it isn't problems with my family, either. The last time I woke up with laryngitis, complete! I shudder to think what is next!

 

[Michael G]

Aria,
You make a good point. I said and did many things in the first 2 or 3 years after having converted to Orthodoxy that I now regret. I actually had the backbone to call 2 different bishops questioning what a priest (who some on this board personally know) was teaching. The more Orthodox I have become the more I realize that it is better to listen and understand than to spout off at the mouth.
Peace,
Michael

 

[Cecilytwin]

I've heard it said that converts have zeal and cradles have patience. Both need each other to be balanced.

 

[choirfiend]

Hehe, I dont know about you, but I'm lacking in patience....I want things to happen NOW, but I guess I just believe that the right thing will happen eventually.

 

[Cecilytwin]

Well, I'm not very patient either, but I think they meant patience in not expecting changes quickly. : )

 

[MariaRegina]

Change -- what change?

Did I hear someone mention change?

Is outrage!

There is nothing wrong with having an English Liturgy -- sometimes the priest has to know of your struggle, then maybe they will be more open to having a pan-Orthodox Divine Liturgy where different langauges are being used to better serve the language needs of that parish.

It could make the Liturgy a little bit longer but that would save on fuel costs.

Personally, I have come to appreciate and see the beauty of the various languages. And I can sing in English, Greek, Church Slavonic and Arabic. I have been exposed to Romanian also.

 

[Cecilytwin]

Our services are in English, except for Sunday Liturgy which is half and half English and Slavonic. Actually, my parents converted 20 years ago when I was 3, and we are American. I agree with you about having services in one's own language. I don't think that that was specifically referring to language though.
I can see the viewpoint of both convert and cradle since my parents are converts, and I have not known any other religion. I have seen many recent converts come and try to rework things according to how they see fit, while many times they don't yet have a truly Orthodox understanding. This can be spiritually dangerous for them. In this case, cradles can be very useful to them in showing patience and teaching an Orthodox mindset.
On the other hand I have also seen cases where the cradles were very apathetic and converts came and really helped matters by their zeal. Personally, I think it good to have both together, so that they can help each other.

 

[choirfiend]

Hahahaha, this is too good--a little true, a little sad, and a lot funny.


Again | 1999 | Hieromonk Jonah
Posted on 05/15/2005 1:03:41 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode


Five Good Reasons NOT to Visit a Monastery
The temptations of monastic maximalism

by Hieromonk Jonah (Paffhausen)
of the Monastery of St. John of Shanghai and San Francisco

The priest looked out of the altar, checking to see if the choir director was ready to begin the hours before the Divine Liturgy. Just as he was ready to say, "Blessed is our God," his newest convert, Bill, made a grand entrance into the church, having just gotten back from his latest pilgrimage to another monastery. Bill -- or Vasili, as he now insisted on being called -- had been a normal young evangelical convert, clean-cut, single, and working his first job out of college. Then he discovered Orthodoxy in a bookstore, and with great zeal embraced the Faith. He was chrismated after a usual six-month catechumenate, during which he read just about every book in print on the Orthodox Faith.

After a year or so, Bill had decided to go visit monasteries. This is where his change began. He became more pious and more serious about his faith, but also started to become, well, weird. Like this Sunday morning. Bill/Vasili was not content to come in like everyone else. Rather, prayer ropes flying from his wrists, he made grand bows at the entrance to the nave, and again, the entire congregation watching, with a flourish prostrated before virtually every icon in the church. It was such a display that no one listened to the hours.

Then, just before the time the Liturgy should have begun, Bill came up to the door of the altar and announced he must have confession, or he'd be in big trouble with the holy elders. Father, being patient with zealous youths, went to hear the confession.

"I am the worst of all sinners!" Bill began as usual. Then he read his list, only four pages this morning. "And I only could do two hundred prostrations, not my usual three hundred, and only read four akathists, so I am not fully prepared for communion," he said. "Besides, I just had to have a cup of coffee, but since everyone else does anyway, can I still go to communion?"

The priest had heard it all before. What does one say? "You did all those prayers, and still had to have a cup of coffee?"

"Well, the Elder said I had to do the prayers, but I couldn't stay awake to finish them all. So I had some coffee. But doesn't everyone in this jurisdiction even have breakfast before Liturgy? I heard that Bishop So-and-so even had coffee with those godless Catholics right before Liturgy. Besides, it was at three a.m. when I had the coffee, and it's almost ten now.

A little after, thought the priest. "Why didn't you start your rule a little earlier?"

"Well, the book I just read said it must only be done after midnight, as that is the time to battle demons. Besides, Madonna was on Saturday Night Live.' Uh. . . the video clips of hers really led me into a big temptation . . . so I did all those prostrations."

Father really did not know what to address first. "Father," Bill asked, "don't you think it's time to start being more traditional, to get rid of those paraffin candles and use real beeswax? It is more Orthodox. It really bothers me that the choir reads half the texts of the vigil, instead of singing them, like last night. And on the wrong calendar too. It took me three hours just to repeat the vigil on the right calendar! I'm afraid I am going to have to find another jurisdiction that is more Orthodox. Am I the only one in this parish who knows how to do things right? Besides, I have invited my Elder to meet you, and he'll set you straight on all this stuff. He told me we have to do everything correctly, like they do it, otherwise we'll all burn in hell."

Father was losing patience, looking at his watch, 10:20 and counting. "Okay, Vasili, look, there are a number of issues here, and we need to talk about them, but not while the whole church is waiting for you to finish. When did you go to confession last?"

"Yesterday, at the monastery. I think I have finally found a spiritual father worthy of my obedience."

"And who is he?"

"Fr. So-and-so, from the monastery in the mountains. He is coming to serve with you next Sunday."

"Bill. .

"Vasili."

"Okay, Vasili, then. That guy was defrocked years ago. I can't serve with him! Who gave you a blessing to go see him? Much less submit yourself to him? Much less invite him here?"

"Oh, so you too are continuing to persecute that righteous man! I know in my heart he is truly Orthodox! Besides he baptized me yesterday, making up for what you did not do by chrismating me. Actually," getting excited, "why am I here anyway? I should really go be with him as the true criterion of Orthodoxy. . . Not in this modernist, ecumenist jurisdiction. My spiritual father may have been defrocked, but he is obedient to God, not those godless bishops! I know it because I feel it in my heart. .

"So," said Father, rather irritated, "why do you want to go to communion here anyway?"

"What! You would deny me my right to go to communion!" he whined, as he stormed out.

 

[MariaRegina]

Our services are in English, except for Sunday Liturgy which is half and half English and Slavonic. Actually, my parents converted 20 years ago when I was 3, and we are American. I agree with you about having services in one's own language. I don't think that that was specifically referring to language though.
I can see the viewpoint of both convert and cradle since my parents are converts, and I have not known any other religion. I have seen many recent converts come and try to rework things according to how they see fit, while many times they don't yet have a truly Orthodox understanding. This can be spiritually dangerous for them. In this case, cradles can be very useful to them in showing patience and teaching an Orthodox mindset.
On the other hand I have also seen cases where the cradles were very apathetic and converts came and really helped matters by their zeal. Personally, I think it good to have both together, so that they can help each other.

I agree. Converts can encourage the Cradles to learn their faith which they may have taken for granted or only understood as a cultural thing. Cradles can help teach us the beautiful traditions and the reasons behind the traditions.

Both must learn to be patient and considerate of each other. In that way, we both grow in theosis.

 

[MariaRegina]

Hahahaha, this is too good--a little true, a little sad, and a lot funny.

This actually happened to two young men in my parish.

They were chrismated into the OCA but then accepted baptism in HOCNA and were very rude to the OCA priest telling him that his chrismation was not "effective."

Our priests are human and that hurts, especially when you consider all the time, tears, gas, and energy that priest spent on those two.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

This actually happened to two young men in my parish.

They were chrismated into the OCA but then accepted baptism in HOCNA and were very rude to the OCA priest telling him that his chrismation was not "effective."

Our priests are human and that hurts, especially when you consider all the time, tears, gas, and energy that priest spent on those two.

Yes, that's quite common and I can only say, 'There, but for the Grace of God, go I'. There was a time when I was quite seriously considering the True Orthodox Church of Romania because of the Calendar issue, but a very wise ROCOR priest convinced me that staying in the canonical Church whilst being personally opposed to the New Calendar was the correct thing to do. I still dislike the New Calendar (and some of the other overly modernist practices I see occasionally) but I have since mellowed a lot and I would rather be in and obedient to the Church than become a schismatic over things that are less than vital to my salvation. I still pray that the Romanian Church will return to the Old Calendar, though.

James

 

[Ragamuffins]

As one who is considering the Orthodox church, it would be easier for me to understand the liturgy in my own language. I am so anglo it isn't funny

I don't have anything against learning a new language but I think baby steps are a must when trying to learn a new faith, or in anything. Teach me the liturgy in my own language and gradually ween me into something else, but I think it is important to know what I am saying rather than just saying it and hoping a I found out what it means later. Know what I mean?

JMHO.

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

As one who is considering the Orthodox church, it would be easier for me to understand the liturgy in my own language. I am so anglo it isn't funny

I don't have anything against learning a new language but I think baby steps are a must when trying to learn a new faith, or in anything. Teach me the liturgy in my own language and gradually ween me into something else, but I think it is important to know what I am saying rather than just saying it and hoping a I found out what it means later. Know what I mean?

JMHO.

You're quite right. The Liturgy should be in the vernacular and I'm afraid that I really don't understand why the Greek and Russian Churches use Koine and Slavonic respectively. In my opinion, they ought to be in modern Greek and modern Russian and if they're in the diaspora in the language of the country in which they find themselves - unless the parish is entirely made up of immigrants of course.

I used to worship in a Greek church in Britain because it was the only one I could get to. I was already familiar with the Liturgy, so that wasn't a problem, and they did do the odd bit in English, but the majority was in Koine. Many of the parishioners, particularly the young ones, didn't have a clue what was going on and as the school for the children taught Greek language rather than the Orthodox faith that didn't help either.

James

 

[MariaRegina]

As one who is considering the Orthodox church, it would be easier for me to understand the liturgy in my own language. I am so anglo it isn't funny

I don't have anything against learning a new language but I think baby steps are a must when trying to learn a new faith, or in anything. Teach me the liturgy in my own language and gradually ween me into something else, but I think it is important to know what I am saying rather than just saying it and hoping a I found out what it means later. Know what I mean?

JMHO.

Dear Ragamuffins,

You don't say where you are from, but if you are in the USA, you can check the various websites and find a church that possibly may have English services. Most of the OCA churches have a service in English as well as the Antiochian. However, there are ethnic enclaves who demand the services to be in Church Slavonic or Arabic. Most of the Greek Churches have the services in 50 to 100 percent Greek depending on the number of converts in the congregation.

Here are some of the USA jurisdictions as a start:

www.oca.org - the OCA
www.goarch.org - the Greek
www.antiochian.org - The Antiochian (Arabic/English) parishes

 

[Ragamuffins]

Aria, thanks for the websites, I found two of them (churches) yesterday in my area when I asked the question about where to find a parish in my area.

I am going within the next two weeks or so to inquire about services and the like. Pretty excited and nervous at the same time.

But thank you so much for the help!