Convertitis Revisited

[MariaRegina]

Were there complaints, back when the Russian peoples had the audacity to start doing the Divine Liturgy in their mother tongue, back when the calendar was still in the triple digits?

Saints Cyril and Methodios carefully constructed the cyrillic alphabet and translated the Holy Service books into slavonic, which was the vernacular of the people at that time. As the language of these people changed, Church Slavonic became a dead language (like Latin) and evolved into Russian, and various other languages. Children who speak Russian don't understand much of Church Slavonic as it is like Latin to those who speak Spanish, Italian and French.

The people loved the Slavonic and the cyrillic alphabet because they could now communicate in writing and literature was able to develop. So these two saints really helped these people to express themselves poetically, etc.

However, the Roman Catholic Church wanted the people to use the Latin instead of the Slavonic and this did cause friction. Finally a solution was made that geographically divided Europe into Western and Eastern portions where the West was required to use the Latin and the East, the Slavonic. In Romania, they used the Romanian. Serbs use Serbian.

Saints Cyril and Methodius and their fellow missionaries experienced problems with the German missionaries under the Patriarch of Rome, and this almost caused a schism at that time. Liturgical language was definitely one of the many problems that later contributed to the Great Schism.

Cf. Bishop Kallistos (Timothy Ware), The Orthodox Church

 

[Melethiel]

Children who speak Russian don't understand much of Church Slavonic as it is like Latin to those who speak Spanish, Italian and French.

You know, that's interesting, because I can understand Church Slavonic fairly well. Maybe it's because Ukrainian is closer to it than Russian is?

 

[MariaRegina]

You know, that's interesting, because I can understand Church Slavonic fairly well. Maybe it's because Ukrainian is closer to it than Russian is?

I don't know ... I do know that certain Russian bishops here in the USA are trying to encourage English in the parishes so that the children understand the readings, etc.

The children who do speak Russian have trouble understanding the Church Slavonic but do understand the English and the Russian sermons.

Someone made a comparison. They said that hearing the Holy Service in Church Slavonic was like reading a book with holes in it. The context is lost and while they get bits and pieces, if certain key words are lost, then they are clueless and reduced to praying the Jesus Prayer.

Hey, that is what I do when at the Epistle reading, a reader chants so rapidly so that I cannot understand a word. It also doesn't help when the reader faces the altar instead of the people and I am standing in the back choir loft.

 

[Photini]

Honestly, all of this stuff is beginning to shake my faith, if I ever really had any in the first place. The jurisdictional mess, the language BS, the calendar BS, etc. And the RCC and Protestant churches are in even worse shape than Orthodoxy. I don't know where else to go.

 

[MariaRegina]

We have always been in the End Times.

That is why we have shepherds to guide us.

And we have to pray for them that they don't lead us astray.

We must focus on our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ.

Lord have mercy on us and save us.

 

[choirfiend]

Do these things honestly affect you in real life on a daily basis? Are there arguments in your parish? Is your priest and congregation in trouble? These problems are talked about A LOT online. They are good things to think about, but they very rarely really come into one's personal life or the life of a parish; there are plenty of other things to worry about. If it's causing you distress, stop reading about it. It is affects your faith, remove it from your life. If it causes you to sin, pluck it out. Never let maniacs, extremists, or people who are concerned solely with politics affect your life. Christ is the center. He protects us. Trust in Him and have peace.

 

[Llauralin]

I dunno...I like Liturgy in Greek, I like it in English...I like having the homily in the middle of the service, and it was just fine after communion too...

I wouldn't take Greek out of the Greek orthodox church I've been going to, because I was talking to this lady from Greece, and apperently a goodly portion of the congregation really loves it. Besides, it's biblical Greek; half my protestant friends would like to understand it!

Actually, there's another strain of convertitis going around; those of us whose churches used to change every other Tuesday, where the level of noise in the rock music during services kept rising every couple of weeks, and where we were constantly lectured to "shake things up a bit." I'd just as well not mess with other people's churches, because I know exactly what it feels like to have some new people come in in October, and suddenly in December you're not allowed to sing Christmas carols in church because they're not part of the grand scheme of purpose and "relevence."

Nope, not planning on imposing that on the local Greek population anytime soon....

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I think some here are misunderstanding the point of Aria's post (and maybe I am... but I think Aria and I have been kind of on the same wavelength on these things).

Convertitis (or as gzt called it, "religiosity") is a serious problem in American Orthodoxy. Yes, there are other serious problems, be we need to draw our attention toward this problem because we can choose to help it.

There is a thread I started back in January that, after a little digging around, I found. To give some background, I was piggybacking off a recent thread we had on some concerns with the Orthodox Study Bible and "Julio" is someone who contributed greatly to this discussion. Here goes it. (It's starts off with a quote from an article that critiqued the OSB, not because I was trying to talk about the OSB, but because it related well to what I wanted to post about. I'll put it up in the next post here.

 

[Photini]

It is affects your faith, remove it from your life.

Thanks. Unfortunately an English speaking parish is in excess of a 2 hour drive from me. The only alternative is to start going back to a protestant church, which I will not do.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

...the converts tend to bring with them far too much of the baggage of their previous allegiances... We converts to Orthodoxy must be ready to ‘leave all things and follow’ where our Fathers have led. We Orthodox must be prepared to say ‘Come and see.’ But we must strenuously resist every temptation to add, ‘And don’t worry, well try to make it palatable for you.’ ... There is a profound sense in which it is true to say that Orthodoxy takes centuries to acquire.

Julio quoted this exact excerpt in a thread regarding the Orthodox Study Bible. I had actually read it earlier, but it also stood out to me and summed up a lot of what I have been thinking regarding my own journey into orthodody just within the last few months.

Orthodoxy is not a hat you put on and say "Look, I'm Orthodox!"... it is unending process by which you become Orthodox day by day. I think many of us converts fail to truly recognize this (Im not accusing or even thinking of anyone in particular at TAW... but I know a lot of converts in real life, as do all of us, and I know that many are like me). Now, I didn't know that I thought of Orthodoxy in this way, but looking back, I did see it like this to a great extent.

I came to the Orthodox Church with my cowboy mentality: I recognized the fact that "this is the true Church, but it is not perfect" (very true) but I made the mistake of going further than this and adding "Let's see how I can help make it better." So, I would notice the "problems" in the Orthodox Church. "Too much Greek here", "people come late to Church", "What? you don't even know the book of the OT!" etc... Some of my almighty criticisms may have even been justified from time to time (although I am finding less and less of them to be so as time goes on), but I have come to realize that this is beside the point. I see now that I have nothing to offer the Orthodox Church except my obedience, appreciation and love. How can I possibly, "make it better"? Why would I try to reform anything, even those things which may need refomation. I'll leave that to a holier man than I. For now, I can't go wrong just learning from her, imperfections and all. Is it good for imperfections to be fixed? Sure, but I doubt I am the person to even properly recognize where those imperfections lie. I have become so much better than I used to be at just not worrying about something that doesn't sit right with me.

I have had heard it said that converts should not speak for a year, but only listen. While taking this literally isn't practical, the spirit behind it is so true. How much furthere I would be if I would have just ignored my arrogancy and shut up. The more I am Orthodox, the more I see my past baggage as just that, baggage that I need to let go of if I ever expect to fully immerse myself in the Church.

By the way, I'm not really referring (personally) to doctrinal issues (which i never had a problem fully accepting, even when it didnt make sense) but rather to pieties and customs... small t traditions. A monk I met in Monachos (who is now with our Lord) used to say that these traditions (small t), (all of those little things, even the stuff that seems silly or doesnt make sense to us) are the mortar which holds the bricks our faith together.

This is why, for me, it is so wonderful to go to a parish with a lot of cradle orthodox. Maybe they don't have that "convert zeal" (but I have found that my "zeal" has gotten me into trouble more than not and has only created further obstacles in truly understanding the mindset of the Church and becoming Orthodox) but they can give me that mortar if I only learn to watch and listen and get the reformer mentality as far away from me as possible.

(John now steps off of his soapbox)

This post was more like a journal than anything else. It was not meant to criticise anyone but myslef in the past. I'll be interested to hear what anyone else thinks about Archimandrite Ephrem's quote above (that's really the OP here... I'm jsut commenting on it).

God bless,
John

 

[Xpycoctomos]

By the way, I posted this as much for my benefit (that I would take my own medicine) as for anyone else my previous might have spoken too. Just take it for what it's worth.

John

 

[Photini]

Thanks you guys, for helping me realize I'm not cut out for Orthodoxy.

 

[Llauralin]

Thanks you guys, for helping me realize I'm not cut out for Orthodoxy.

Seriously? Why???

 

[MariaRegina]

Thanks you guys, for helping me realize I'm not cut out for Orthodoxy.

None of us are 'worthy' or 'cut-out' for Orthodoxy.

We are all sinners who have to learn to trust in God, and let go.

Let go of our sins, our selfishness, our wills, so that God can step into the center of our beings, where He belongs.

We are made to be Temples of the Holy Spirit - that is why God created us.

Will we let Him into the heart of our being?

Of all the people here, Photini, you have been the most steadfast. Perhaps you need to move to where you could be on high ground away from the flood waters and closer to a church where you can be regularly nourished. I fear that Florida is really going to become permanent swamp land shortly, if not part of the Atlantic Ocean or Gulf Coast.

 

[Photini]

Seriously? Why???

Don't worry. I'm having issues, but I'm sure they will be overcome. Don't let my DOTK (diarrhea of the keyboard) cause you any worries.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I mean literally just before communion.

Oh...well...that is...um...different.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

Don't worry. I'm having issues, but I'm sure they will be overcome. Don't let my DOTK (diarrhea of the keyboard) cause you any worries.

You scared me girl!

There isn't anywhere elso to go. This is it, full stop. We can shape the Church--but it will be through our prayers, fasting and self denial. Our acts of love toward each other and our communities, our devotion to Holy Trinity, and asking the intercessions of the saints do so much more to shape the American Orthodox Church than bickering and analyzing on-line.

M.

 

[Photini]

Thanks Monica. And please pardon my overreaction. I try not to let that happen, but sometimes things come to a breaking point you know? I definitely need to move, that is a given, and confirmed by a priest-monk who was very dear to me. Seems like everytime moving is within reach something happens to stall me. (This is a phenomenon in the spiritual life too I suppose....everytime I seem to make progress, a new issue arrives that tries to pull me back.)

 

[Photini]

In polls taken in both OBOB and in TAW,


1. Most of the people in OBOB are Protestant converts to Catholicism.


2. Most of the people in TAW are Protestant converts with a few Catholic converts to Orthodoxy.


DO YOU KNOW THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS?

But in response to the OP on this question. One major significance of this is, that it is an indicator that people are searching, and wanting to return to the historical Church. I saw a thread in GT a few days ago which was titled something like this: "What is the minimum required to be a Christian?" This to me is a problem with our (and by "our" I am indicating American because I have no idea about other countries) mindset. What is the minimum I have to do and still be safe? What is the minimum I have to do and still have a good life? It has reduced Christianity to a skeleton, and left it's people hungry.

 

[MariaRegina]

Thanks Monica. And please pardon my overreaction. I try not to let that happen, but sometimes things come to a breaking point you know? I definitely need to move, that is a given, and confirmed by a priest-monk who was very dear to me. Seems like everytime moving is within reach something happens to stall me. (This is a phenomenon in the spiritual life too I suppose....everytime I seem to make progress, a new issue arrives that tries to pull me back.)

Yes, but if you use those stumbling blocks as opportunities for spirutal growth, then you do advance in the spiritual life.

Someone once said that we are either moving forward or regressing backwards. We cannot stay still in the spiritual life. If we think we are progressing, then we are actually regressing. That is why we need a spiritual father who can assess the true spiritual state of our souls.

Pray for me a sinner.