Conversion to Islam

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Although I must say, I think there are more intelligent ways of communicating our feelings and concerns to Michael than stupid cartoons.

The cartoons are not stupid, what Michael doing is. Cartoons are on the ball, to express the stupidity of Islamic issues, and their harsh reality we bear.

If I were an evangelical considering conversion to Orthodoxy and my fellow evangelicals gave me Jack Chick to show me I was wrong, I would think they were idiots and disregard what they said.

You don't even know if Michael is not a troll, who is already a muslim, pretending to be an Orthodox wannabe, etc. Plus cartoons are not evangelical, theological, they are not trying to reach out, they are calling out to Orthodoxy, they have a purpose, they are political.

Orthodoxy has truth on its side, we don't need to resort to childish and stupid cartoons or hate mongering. We don't need to attack other faiths because our faith is the TRUTH and the truth is not afraid or insecure and can stand on it's own merits.

This is another example of you sympathizing with Islam again. Does it ever appear to you that the troll is not listening? He is beyond the evangelizing stage, he is lost to a false religion. This is the third time around I am seeing this character, everytime gradually moving towards Islam and everytime seems to be asking advice, and maybe you wish to dig a little and find out how I approached the first time around. Further, what I have is not hate mongering, it is zeal towards my own faith which is being stepped and spitted on by this troll. You need wake up and smell the coffee, and the reality of Islam. It is of Satan, and you can't fend off Satan by smiling at him, showing him the pink color. He is the enemy.

 

[Silentchapel]

Refuted many times by Moslems - for Moslems. Frankly, I never even saw or heard or anything regarding these apologetics. And frankly, I seriously doubt it's believable. It is interesting how quickly you adopted Islam terminology - in the same way you adopted Orthodox terminology after ditching Traditional Roman Catholicism. And I still recall how here you occasionally used words like illicit and similar. Remember SSPX? How long ago that was? But you'll see no problem, you'll brush that aside, since now you see the truth with Islam, in the same way you saw truth with Old Calendarism, saw the truth with Eastern Orthodoxy, saw the truth with Traditional Roman Catholicism, saw the truth with Novus Ordo Roman Catholicism, saw the truth with Anglicanism, saw the truth with Hare Krishnas...
I once complained to a priest that you're changing faiths faster than you're changing your socks - he commented: "Paganism, Anglicanism, Catholicism, Orthodoxy - seems like logical progression." I just can't seem to fit Islam into this, and I can definetly see you repeat the cycle (Islam's problem is that it is chronically devoid of beauty or any type of theological depth). And I hope and pray for your sake Scott (since you're not worthy of being called by the name of the Prince of Holy Angels) that this 'end of Ramadan' never comes for you and that you ditch this silly infatuation before it's too late. Thank God that you live in New Zealand where Moslems are probably much milder - but I am terrified about Malasya, because I don't know about there.
Btw - you can marry Seetha if she becomes Orthodox, but Seetha can't marry you if she becomes Orthodox. Have fun.
SUGGESTON: In order to test whether we're lying about Islam, go to Saudi Arabia and tell them you're leaving Islam.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Mike, we may have some misconceptions of Islam, but what is so shocking is that you have so many misconceptions about Christianity, namely the trinity. You use muslim terms to describe it as well (partners). The Koran, can't even agree on the Trinity is. Based on what you've said here regarding the Trinity, you know or ahve never held knowledge of how the Orthdoox Church believes in the Trinity.

I'm not trying to attack you. It's just a fact I'm stating. It's as if I were a Muslim and said "I'm becoming Christian becuase I no longer think it is right to worship Mohammed". So, all fo the muslims are like "What? But that's not even a muslim belief or practice. Sounds like something some Chrsitian Televangelist would say". How you have described the Trinity is that crazy... but very typical of Muslims.

Honestly, I think you are looking for attention and something to make you different. I think you like to feel like an outsider. I mean, it's so odd how you post here as if you were expecting some of us to say "oh, yeah, I mean, I guess he's still worshipping God and, look at how much the Koran respects us. Well, MIke, we're not happy that your leaving, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Sounds liek this is a step you need to be. God bless you, brother. )" Like, you're almost surpirsed that we aren't in any way supportive of the stuff you've been purporting about this religion.

To tell you the truth, regardless of our misconceptions, and even if it were a Peaceful religion at it's core, it's not of Christ and it IS anti-Chrsitian (for the Christ we believe in is twisted around and turned into someone that has NOTHIGN to do with the Church of the last 2000 years). We would/should be just as concerned were you becoming Mormon, bhuddist or atheist. Islam is, perhaps, jsut a bit mroe culturally loaded than we are used to.

John

 

[zhilan]

Many of you seem to have many misconceptions about Islam. I had many of these misconceptions myself, as DarkNLovely pointed out. Then someone made du'a to open my heart to Islam, and I talked about these misconceptions with Muslims. I collected a translation of the Holy Qur'an and some of their literature with the intention of using it to refute Islam, but then I actually read it and it touched me. All these attacks on Islam that various forum members have posted have all been refuted many times by Muslims.

However, I'm not going to convert just yet, as there are some things I need to work out, and other things that I need to discuss with the sheikh. I am fasting for Ramadan, though, and maybe I'll convert at the end of Ramadan.

Michael,

I'm not an anti-Muslim fanatic. In fact, as I'm sure Bushmaster and some others can tell you, they often come into conflict to me because they think I'm too pro-Islam. I really do have a soft spot in my hard for the Muslims culture and yes, even the Islamic faith. I think it's a beautiful religion with a proud and fascinating history. It's been the focus of my studies and will probably continue to be. Depending on how my future unfolds it could very well be at a center piece of my professional career. Unlike many people here, I'm not afraid of Islam. I'm not afraid of Muslims. I'm not afraid of Muslim countries and I don't buy into the media-driven propaganda that in my mind more closely resembles the anti-Semitic campaigns of pre-WW2 Germany than any serious attempts to investigate or learn about Islam and Islamic cultures.

With that said, I would never become a Muslim. Not because I think Islam is violent or evil or whatever people may throw at it and certainly not because of some stupid cartoons, but because if you really look into it, it simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny. I won't because a Muslim for the same reason I won't become a Mormon or a Hindu or an evangelical Protestant. Not because I have anything against them or think their evil or stupid, but because when you really look into it, it simply doesn't show itself to be the truth faith.

I won't try to scare you or tell you that you will be killed if you change your mind because unless you are planning on moving to Saudi Arabia that isn't that much of a concern. In most cases where that happens it is the family that turns the person over, and I assume your parents aren't Muslim. Unless I've missed something I think you live in a Western country, so unless you really get into the wrong crowd that's probably more of a scare tactic than reality. I know plenty of ex-Muslims, and non of them are dead. Not saying it doesn't happen, but in your situation where you're not raised Muslim it's unlikely, and you are certainly no more likely to be scared off my that than I am. Now if you want to why I am not a Muslim and belief it is a false religion, then feel free to PM me or post here and I'd be happy to talk to you about it.

 

[paleodoxy]

Michael,

I will not believe that you know anything remotely about the true nature of Islam until you hop a flight to Saudi Arabia, study under a real Sunni Muslim Sheikh for a while, and begin to absorb Islam's political, social, economic, cultural, and juridical realities.

You want Islam? I suggest going to the geographical, political and ethnic heart of the religion. None of this castrated, American-Islamic revisionism from a comfortable distance.

If you're serious about Islam, you'll have to prove it to us. Sorry buddy.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Michael,

I'm not an anti-Muslim fanatic. In fact, as I'm sure Bushmaster and some others can tell you, they often come into conflict to me because they think I'm too pro-Islam. I really do have a soft spot in my hard for the Muslims culture and yes, even the Islamic faith. I think it's a beautiful religion with a proud and fascinating history. It's been the focus of my studies and will probably continue to be. Depending on how my future unfolds it could very well be at a center piece of my professional career. Unlike many people here, I'm not afraid of Islam. I'm not afraid of Muslims. I'm not afraid of Muslim countries and I don't buy into the media-driven propaganda that in my mind more closely resembles the anti-Semitic campaigns of pre-WW2 Germany than any serious attempts to investigate or learn about Islam and Islamic cultures.

With that said, I would never become a Muslim. Not because I think Islam is violent or evil or whatever people may throw at it and certainly not because of some stupid cartoons, but because if you really look into it, it simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny. I won't because a Muslim for the same reason I won't become a Mormon or a Hindu or an evangelical Protestant. Not because I have anything against them or think their evil or stupid, but because when you really look into it, it simply doesn't show itself to be the truth faith.

I won't try to scare you or tell you that you will be killed if you change your mind because unless you are planning on moving to Saudi Arabia that isn't that much of a concern. In most cases where that happens it is the family that turns the person over, and I assume your parents aren't Muslim. Unless I've missed something I think you live in a Western country, so unless you really get into the wrong crowd that's probably more of a scare tactic than reality. I know plenty of ex-Muslims, and non of them are dead. Not saying it doesn't happen, but in your situation where you're not raised Muslim it's unlikely, and you are certainly no more likely to be scared off my that than I am. Now if you want to why I am not a Muslim and belief it is a false religion, then feel free to PM me or post here and I'd be happy to talk to you about it.

Although I may not hold agreement with everything you say, I think you are much better informed than most of us here. I think if most of this thread were to be obliterated, your post should be the one to stay. Thank you for your insight and I hope that Michael takes into consideration what you have said.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

Current Prayer Requests:
That my faith in Christ and His holy Church may be strengthened.

Guys, I think this is what we need to do. His name is Scott apparently. Probably better than any post most of us could offer.

John

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Many of you seem to have many misconceptions about Islam. I had many of these misconceptions myself, as DarkNLovely pointed out.

What a load of bullocks... What is my misconception about Islam man, WHAT? The fact that Allah rejects CRUCIFIXION of CHRIST by saying "it was a made appear" event? What is my misconception? I have lived in your pretty green religion for 24 years, I know how it stinks. Don't give me none of that... It is Satan and crews misconception that by fetching lies in a poetic book, they hoped to cover CHRIST and HIS ATONING WORK ON THE CROSS.... And blind fools like you would open this book and believe that Crucifixion never happened, it was not Christ who was crucified etc, with NO historical support whatsoever. You want to hear misconception? Quran says: O believers, SAY NOT Allah is THIRD of THREE... Since when Trinity was THREE gods? You want to hear misconception? Jews, call Christ the MESSIAH... Since when Jews admitted that? Get a life...

Then someone made du'a to open my heart to Islam, and I talked about these misconceptions with Muslims. I collected a translation of the Holy Qur'an and some of their literature with the intention of using it to refute Islam, but then I actually read it and it touched me.

Someone summoned the demons for you, way to go... If you read any poetry, it would touch you, why didn't you read Far Eastern religion, Buddha, whatnot?

All these attacks on Islam that various forum members have posted have all been refuted many times by Muslims.

SHOW ME, WHAT HAVE THEY BEEN ABLE TO REFUTE? Have you been to Non-Christian Religion section to see how I slam them from wall to wall on their ignorance of CHRIST? Yet you ridiculously choose to cover your ears and yell "la-la-la-la-laaa"

However, I'm not going to convert just yet, as there are some things I need to work out, and other things that I need to discuss with the sheikh. I am fasting for Ramadan, though, and maybe I'll convert at the end of Ramadan.

Don't forget to tell your fiance that in a few years you are getting another wife on top of her, you are allowed up to four. Good luck on the daytime starvation month...

 

[zhilan]

The cartoons are not stupid, what Michael doing is. Cartoons are on the ball, to express the stupidity of Islamic issues, and their harsh reality we bear.

Yes my friend, they are stupid. No one is going to be convinced by some cartoon that oversimplifies and polarizes. If you want to share those among your buddies or put them on your locker, be my guest, but using them as a tool to convince someone not to convert to Islam is like using Jack Chick against Orthodoxy. Have a little more class and at engage him in conversation. If Orthodoxy is true then you don't need to resort to childish cartoons. Why don't you just call him a poopy-head and stuck your tongue out.

You don't even know if Michael is not a troll, who is already a muslim, pretending to be an Orthodox wannabe, etc. Plus cartoons are not evangelical, theological, they are not trying to reach out, they are calling out to Orthodoxy, they have a purpose, they are political.

He's been here long enough that I am confident he's not a troll. I think he has some personal issues to work out, but he's not a troll. And if they are political then once again, laugh at them with your friends, but they have no place in this thread and probably do more harm to Michael's soul than good.

This is another example of you sympathizing with Islam again. Does it ever appear to you that the troll is not listening? He is beyond the evangelizing stage, he is lost to a false religion. This is the third time around I am seeing this character, everytime gradually moving towards Islam and everytime seems to be asking advice, and maybe you wish to dig a little and find out how I approached the first time around. Further, what I have is not hate mongering, it is zeal towards my own faith which is being stepped and spitted on by this troll. You need wake up and smell the coffee, and the reality of Islam. It is of Satan, and you can't fend off Satan by smiling at him, showing him the pink color. He is the enemy.

Maybe he doesn't listen because we look like idiots when we use Jack Chick-esqe arguments to convince him Islam is wrong. How much attention to you give Protestants who point you to those stupid anti-Orthodox websites and tell you that Orthodox worship Saints? When they do that I think, "this person is afraid of the truth, they think they can't argue against me and so they have to resort cheap attacks without actually addressing anything to avoid engaging me."

I believe in Orthodoxy and I believe Islam is a false religion. Because of that, I can have a conversation about Islam without resorting to attacks. Islam cannot stand up to Orthodoxy. It simply can't. Therefore there is no need to attack it on a personal level. We don't need cartoons and we don't need hate. We have the truth, we have Christ's love, and we have the Holy Spirit and to approach any falsity with anything other than that is, in my opinion, offensive to Orthodoxy.

 

[Silentchapel]

Well, that's the problem - Michael always goes to the most extreme branch, and if he does it in this case, he won't be able to jump off it like he used to do it before. That is the reason of my concern.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

I think we need to ask ourselves here, are we sincerely trying to convince Scott or argue iwth Islam. Scott doesn't want to be convinced and Islam is nto going to change becuase of our thread

I think perhaps that Zilahn has set the right tone for waht our attitude should be towards scott.

We are all concerned about Scott and his soul here and perhaps the best we can do is let him know (as one poster here said) that we will be here waiting for him with open arms if he ever has questions.

Scott, if you are ever seriously interested in investigating Orthodoxy further, PM one or a few of us. A thread will only confuse the issue. Pm some people. But until then, we'll be praying for you that your faith in Christ and His Holy Church is strengthened.

May God have mercy on you as he has mercy on all of us who are underserving of such.

John

 

[MichaelNZ]

Again, she may be lured by a Christian husbend. Keep that in mind.

She wouldn't. I know her too well. She keeps saying that if I break up with her (I swore on the Bible that I wouldn't) she won't marry anyone and just stay single.

Islam allows Muslim men to marry Jewish and Christian women. She isn't baptized yet, but the requirement according to Islam to be one of the "People of the Book" is that she must believe (without doubts) in:

1. God (Glorious and Exalted is He)
2. A recognized revealed Book.
3. A recognized Prophet.

My girlfriend believes in all three, so we are able to get married. However, what would happen if we married Islamically and she then got baptized in the Orthodox Church?

 

[paleodoxy]

I think we need to ask ourselves here, are we sincerely trying to convince Scott or argue iwth Islam. Scott doesn't want to be convinced and Islam is nto going to change becuase of our thread

I think perhaps that Zilahn has set the right tone for waht our attitude should be towards scott.

We are all concerned about Scott and his soul here and perhaps the best we can do is let him know (as one poster here said) that we will be here waiting for him with open arms if he ever has questions.

Scott, if you are ever seriously interested in investigating Orthodoxy further, PM one or a few of us. A thread will only confuse the issue. Pm some people. But until then, we'll be praying for you that your faith in Christ and His Holy Church is strengthened.

May God have mercy on you as he has mercy on all of us who are underserving of such.

John

This is about as good an approach as any. I have watched the discussions with Michael go on intermittently for weeks without my getting personally involved. It is clear he is not interested in being swayed. His continued presence here has only been provocative. Nevertheless, as you said, he should know that we are here for him if he ever needs us.

 

[Xpycoctomos]

[/B]
She wouldn't. I know her too well. She keeps saying that if I break up with her (I swore on the Bible that I wouldn't) she won't marry anyone and just stay single.

Islam allows Muslim men to marry Jewish and Christian women. She isn't baptized yet, but the requirement according to Islam to be one of the "People of the Book" is that she must believe (without doubts) in:

1. God (Glorious and Exalted is He)
2. [/COLOR]A recognized revealed Book.
3. A recognized Prophet.

My girlfriend believes in all three, so we are able to get married. However, what would happen if we married Islamically and she then got baptized in the Orthodox Church?

Then I guess you guys tricked the system. Is that respectful to the "People of the book?". And her children. She can't raise then in the Orthodox Church.

Look, you guys will do what you want and chances are the priest will do nothing about it becuase quite frankly most priests jsut don't. It's sad, but seriously, I don't think you guys will have any problem doing whatever you want to do regarding this issue.

Scott, can ask you, what's your purpose in thread? I'm looking for a serious answer. What is your intention here. Was it merely to inform us? Was there a question?

 

[zhilan]

[/b]
She wouldn't. I know her too well. She keeps saying that if I break up with her (I swore on the Bible that I wouldn't) she won't marry anyone and just stay single.

Islam allows Muslim men to marry Jewish and Christian women. She isn't baptized yet, but the requirement according to Islam to be one of the "People of the Book" is that she must believe (without doubts) in:

1. God (Glorious and Exalted is He)
2. [/color]A recognized revealed Book.
3. A recognized Prophet.

My girlfriend believes in all three, so we are able to get married. However, what would happen if we married Islamically and she then got baptized in the Orthodox Church?

Michael,

Do you and she realize that she will not be ABLE to do that in the Orthodox Church? Islam may allow you to marry a Christian but Orthodoxy will not allow you to marry a non-Christian - especially if she wants to join the Coptic Church, they are the strictest about this. You need to realize this and think about this and seriously talk about it with her. If you love her as much as you say, which I don't doubt you do, then you need to ask yourself if you want to put her in this situation. Do you want to make her forsake her faith?

 

[nutroll]

Yes my friend, they are stupid. No one is going to be convinced by some cartoon that oversimplifies and polarizes. If you want to share those among your buddies or put them on your locker, be my guest, but using them as a tool to convince someone not to convert to Islam is like using Jack Chick against Orthodoxy. Have a little more class and at engage him in conversation. If Orthodoxy is true then you don't need to resort to childish cartoons. Why don't you just call him a poopy-head and stuck your tongue out.

I have to agree with zhilan on this. Cartoons in general rely on exaggerations to express a point. I don't think that exaggerations are helpful because then all one needs to do is refute the exaggeration, or simply ignore it altogether.. It is more helpful to point out the real issues in a sober way making him respond to actual criticism.

 

[MichaelNZ]

Bushmaster, you really need to lose some of your hatred towards Islam.

 

[MichaelNZ]

The purpose of the thread was merely to inform you of my decision. I'm not interested in debates.

 

[paleodoxy]

Michael,

Please answer Xpycoctomos' question. Was there a question? Was there a deeper purpose to your announcmenets and revealed intentions to convert to Islam? If so, please state it. If you compose another post in this thread without answering the question, I will personally report you. And no, I'm not joking.

 

[nutroll]

[/b]
She wouldn't. I know her too well. She keeps saying that if I break up with her (I swore on the Bible that I wouldn't) she won't marry anyone and just stay single.

I have never heard of anyone that said such a thing and later changed their mind. No wait! I have. Many, many, many times. If, God willing, she grows in her love of Christ and His Church, she will come to resent you pulling her away, especially if you continue to jump from religion to religion as you are wont to do.