Conversion therapy

Junia · Oct 6, 2020

Anthony2019 said:
In my early days as a Christian, I used to be very rigid and quite legalistic at times. These days, I realise how much how little I know and I realise that is probably the best approach anyone can take. During his ministry on earth, our Lord was always full of surprises and he corrected a lot of people who thought they knew everything about the scriptures. A servant will never know more than his master. And perhaps that is just as well. It helps us to learn to trust God better, and have more faith that He knows exactly what he is doing.

Yes. I was the same. wry legalistic and suffering a type of religious OCD which meant I was trapped believing I could never be accepted. Y God no matter was and had all these rituals and intrusive thoughts to get God to love me.

Am being set free and part of this process has been learning to focus on the fundamentals of the Christian faith e.g. Jesus, the cross etc.

Even as recently back as a few months ago I was being tormented by a nagging thought that if supported my trans friend in any way I was going to hell unless I told her what I thought the Bible said about it... So my legalism and fear made me very selfish... And am at a point now where I think just quietly getting on with loving others and therefore by living them loving God and sharing the good news as best I can, is all I can really do.

Anthony2019 · Oct 6, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
Yes. I was the same. wry legalistic and suffering a type of religious OCD which meant I was trapped believing I could never be accepted. Y God no matter was and had all these rituals and intrusive thoughts to get God to love me.

Am being set free and part of this process has been learning to focus on the fundamentals of the Christian faith e.g. Jesus, the cross etc.

Even as recently back as a few months ago I was being tormented by a nagging thought that if supported my trans friend in any way I was going to hell unless I told her what I thought the Bible said about it... So my legalism and fear made me very selfish... And am at a point now where I think just quietly getting on with loving others and therefore by living them loving God and sharing the good news as best I can, is all I can really do.

I too suffered from a type of religious OCD about twenty years ago. I read a text from a book by Father Henri Nouwen which took away my fears and made me realised I was accepted by God.
I Love You, I Love You, I Love You - Henri Nouwen Society

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
I appreciate your response.

I wonder however, that as these were not listed formerly in Leviticus that the meaning carried by the term abomination is not quite the same.

Like the statement - everything we do is sinful - is technically correct because we do not have the perfection of Christ until resurrection.

One could equally say everything we do is an abomination compared to the Holiness of our Lord.

So no, I do not accept that that these references carry the same weight as the Levitical refererences to a specific action that carried the immediate sentence of death.

there are 84 abominations listed in the bible in 17 different books

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
This is nonsense. Men in bed with men as one would lie with a woman was an act that carried the sentence of immediate death. Lev 20:13

i think your dad should have gone over this with you but a man can't lie with a man as with a woman. the plumbing is different

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
It is not that simple...

They can change...

1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Sadly the church has dropped the ball in helping such folks to make the real transition clearly made by early believers.

no one changes. some people, after years of horrific physical emotional and mental abuse will choose to lie to make the abuse stop

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Just change the word orientation to the word temptation and it all becomes clear. Then if it is acted upon, it does become sin.

the feelings you have for your wife are nothing more than temptations?

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

WrappedUpinHisLove3 said:
Exactly!!! There is a cause because the issue is there before other people's prejudice....prejudice didn't create this issue, the issue was there to start with. No one is born with a sexual orientation or concept of gender...babies don't care ....

all and i do mean all of the evidence shows that orientation is inborn

Quartermaine · Oct 6, 2020

nolidad said:
Well "orientation" has normally been used for sexual act preference, not with how one identifies themselves.

you are quite wrong about that. Orientation is independent from any sexual activity. Virgins have never had sex but they have an orientation.

Sexual orientation is an individuals enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors and membership in a community of others who share those attractions.

Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support and ongoing commitment.

Paidiske · Oct 6, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Really ??? How can you possibly know that.

From having intensively studied the languages involved, and the Scriptural passages and other relevant texts from the time which illuminate them.

Carl Emerson said:
That is just a convenient way of interpreting scripture to bolster sympathy for what is an abomination.

No, not at all. My aim is not to "bolster sympathy" (although I do think we should feel sympathy for our fellow human beings, but that's an aside), but to foster critical discussion of these issues. We need to understand that the ancient world and the contemporary world did not think about these issues in the same way, and so in order to apply Scripture in life-giving ways in the contemporary context, we need to be able not only to translate words (which is often done very sloppily anyway), but also to navigate the intervening shift in concepts.

You do exactly the same thing when you read "orientation" as "temptation," although I think that's problematic way to handle the situation.

Carl Emerson said:
The use of the word orientation is a modern construct to avoid the real issue of sin and temptation.

No. The use of the word orientation is an acknowledgement of a shift in our scientific understanding of human development. It does not avoid the issue of sin and temptation, but provides helpful background against which that issue can be better handled.

FreeinChrist · Oct 6, 2020

ADVISOR HAT

This thread is closed for review. Please note that the Current News & Events Statement of Purpose includes:

All news and current events must be documented or validated with a link to a credible online news source in the original post (OP). Political discussions with other Christians should be discussed in the Christians only Politics forum.

98cwitr · Oct 7, 2020

mod hat on

Thread has been reopened after moving from Current News & Events to Christian Philosophy & Ethics.

mod hat off

Carl Emerson · Oct 7, 2020

hedrick said:
The stories in this report suggest that it’s not just conversion therapy that is harmful, but the attitudes of conservative religious communities. That’s going to be impossible to deal with legally in countries with a commitment to freedom of belief.

Maybe but in the mean time charges will be laid against the innocent.

Junia · Oct 7, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
Maybe but in the mean time charges will be laid against the innocent.

I
maybe the Churches will go underground like in China

Carl Emerson · Oct 7, 2020

Quartermaine said:
the feelings you have for your wife are nothing more than temptations?

God doesn't tempt anyone.

nolidad · Oct 7, 2020

Root of Jesse said:
As I will await the evidence for his Sept/Oct. birth.

Anthony2019 said:
I think that is largely to do with the fact that until the latter part of the last century, most people were reluctant to disclose their sexual orientation due to the stigma that was involved. Now that society has generally become more accommodating, I think the term "identity" has become more commonplace to define one's sexual orientation.

Well the textbooks still define orientation as teh gender what prefers to have sex with. And identity as what sex one identifies as. Totally different.

Junia · Oct 7, 2020

Carl Emerson said:
God doesn't tempt anyone.

I

His doesn't no. Satan tempts. So Christians who are struggling with LGBT are maybe being tempted by satan?

Junia · Oct 7, 2020

Because many born again Christians seem to struggle in this area at the moment. With LGBT I mean...Satan attacks those whom God has for His own....

nolidad · Oct 7, 2020

Quartermaine said:
you are quite wrong about that. Orientation is independent from any sexual activity. Virgins have never had sex but they have an orientation.

Sexual orientation is an individuals enduring pattern of emotional, romantic and/or sexual attractions to men, women or both sexes. Sexual orientation also refers to a person’s sense of identity based on those attractions, related behaviors and membership in a community of others who share those attractions.

Sexual orientation is commonly discussed as if it were solely a characteristic of an individual, like biological sex, gender identity or age. This perspective is incomplete because sexual orientation is defined in terms of relationships with others. People express their sexual orientation through behaviors with others, including such simple actions as holding hands or kissing. Thus, sexual orientation is closely tied to the intimate personal relationships that meet deeply felt needs for love, attachment and intimacy. In addition to sexual behaviors, these bonds include nonsexual physical affection between partners, shared goals and values, mutual support and ongoing commitment.

Well the gays who hold debauched parties for just raw sex, their orinetation is defined as homosexual. NO love, intimacy, attachment, romance there.

Yes if ones orientation is same sex, then they will seel sexual andemotional satisfaction from a same sex partner. but say two men are single, close firens and find their emotional intin=macy and attachment to each other without sex, that is not an orientation, just deep friendship like David and JOhnathan!

Sexual identity is simply what one gender of teh supposed current 53 or so out there.

I am sure these labels will change as so many do.

Junia · Oct 7, 2020

nolidad said:
Well the gays who hold debauched parties for just raw sex, their orinetation is defined as homosexual. NO love, intimacy, attachment, romance there.

Yes if ones orientation is same sex, then they will seel sexual andemotional satisfaction from a same sex partner. but say two men are single, close firens and find their emotional intin=macy and attachment to each other without sex, that is not an orientation, just deep friendship like David and JOhnathan!

Sexual identity is simply what one gender of teh supposed current 53 or so out there.

I am sure these labels will change as so many do.

Yes I agree

Sexual preferences are fluid for many people. Not everyone but some go from gay to straight or other way round. Either that are many are bi...

Sexual orientation may not always be about sex, for me my same sex feelings weren't about sex itself, so I agree with @Quartermaine there.

What is interesting is these feelings don't appear before puberty. Not usually anywY. A 5 year old cAnnot be gay

Or effeminate either. A 5 yeAr old boy can like dolls or ok I glitter but disentangle will be gay. If I had a son who was a girly boy I would not label him....children are children...bring them up to know the lord...

Junia · Oct 7, 2020

I do think young children cHi have gender dysphoria it it is very rare. Am talking about little boys who have tried to mutilate their penises or little girls who cry themselves to sleep because they just I is inside they are meant to be boys

That is very different from tomboy or feminine boys...which is usually a normal stage which passes

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