• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,919
Vancouver
✟162,516.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Scott Hahn is an interesting writer, and he has had influence in Catholic circles. His perspective on Revelation is interesting, but it in no way is full Catholic position on Revelation. It focuses mainly on the symbolism that is common between the book and the Mass.
Revelation is a highly symbolic book, and cryptic too. I don't think any sentence could comprehensively describe what it is all about.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Afra
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,919
Vancouver
✟162,516.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
Yale university has an interesting course online about the New Testament( and another on the OD Testament too).
It delves into a little of the history of how the book of Revelation was used in the Ancient World, and it was very much a community event, with the Christians congregated reenacting the story being told. It is a very dramatic story being told, and the story was reenacted by the congregants in a way that stresses the drama.
There is the same kind of pageantry involved in the Catholic Mass too.
 
Upvote 0

Yarddog

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2008
16,808
4,207
Louisville, Ky
✟1,007,702.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?
I don't where this person got that idea but I haven't found anything about Catholicism which is wrong. I was raised a Baptist but left them as a teenager. After a few years I settled on TV evangelism.

In my late twenties I had my aha moment and God called into the Catholic Church. It wasn't an easy transition, being my background, but God slowly revealed the truths. 30 + years later and loving the Mass.

God bless
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,946
11,096
okie
✟222,536.00
Faith
Anabaptist
I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?
Don't go back and don't talk to them if you don't want to be annoyed more.
 
  • Useful
Reactions: RaymondG
Upvote 0

Tutorman

Charismatic Episcopalian
Jun 20, 2017
1,637
1,350
53
california
✟110,756.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Episcopalian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?

No they are not wrong
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: SolomonVII
Upvote 0

HTacianas

Well-Known Member
Jul 9, 2018
8,876
9,490
Florida
✟369,199.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?

The Revelation is written in the order of the ancient Jewish temple liturgy, which the Mass is patterned after. The censor, etc., of the Revelation are all part of that liturgy. For example, off the top of my head, the "silence in heaven for about the space of half an hour" was the point in the temple liturgy when the high priest brought the blood of the sacrifice into the holy of holies. So to say that the Revelation describes the Mass is accurate, in that the Revelation, the temple liturgy, and the Mass are the same.

But the Mass is the same Christian liturgy celebrated the world over by Catholics, the Orthodox, and the Oriental Orthodox. There are only very few Protestant groups who do not.
 
Upvote 0

dreadnought

Lip service isn't really service.
Site Supporter
Aug 4, 2012
7,730
3,462
72
Reno, Nevada
✟335,856.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
United Methodist
Marital Status
Celibate
I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?
You don't like talking to people who are wrong. Are you every wrong?
 
  • Useful
Reactions: SolomonVII
Upvote 0

nonaeroterraqueous

Nonexistent Member
Aug 16, 2014
2,915
2,726
✟196,517.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right.

That's a common problem not directly related to Catholicism. For me, I find that it's best to follow my mood. If I don't feel like debating, then I smile and nod politely and let someone else at some future time deal with it. If I feel feisty, then I might take up the challenge. In the same way that it bothers you that other people get dogmatic and try to control your mind, it's worth noting that you should not be up to the task of attempting the same thing in return.
 
Upvote 0

Philip_B

Bread is Blessed & Broken Wine is Blessed & Poured
Site Supporter
Jul 12, 2016
5,615
5,511
73
Swansea, NSW, Australia
Visit site
✟571,857.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
There is a Catholic Church on the other side of the street from our Parish Church. Recently they demolished their old Church to build a new one, and we invited them to use our Church while they built the new one, which they accepted. They have since graced us with the gift of a beautiful All Saints Icon (Our Church is All Saints). I think we should look for more opportunities to share the things we have in common rather than aggravate the points of division.
 
Upvote 0
Oct 15, 2008
19,476
7,486
Central California
✟292,925.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree. Scott Hahn turned me off as a Catholic big time! He was one of many writers/commentators who drove me away. His caricature of Orthodox Christianity being a bunch of weird bearded ethnic goons couldn't have been further from the truth. In a way I thank Hahn, because his caricatures and silly overgeneralizations got me oriented toward Christ's First, True Church---The Orthodox Church.

And Scott Hahn is not particularly persuasive anyway. His view of Protestantism is an exercise in stereotypes and his writings mainly reiterate what any person who has attended an inquirers class pursuant to joining Hahn's new church would be told to believe.
 
Upvote 0

GingerBeer

Cool and refreshing with a kick!
Mar 26, 2017
3,511
1,348
Australia
✟127,325.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?

Yes. Just one suggestion. Stop pretending that you know that "they" are wrong and start listening.

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
39,043
9,485
✟419,397.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?
Well, it's a matter of knowing the material and being able to show them the proof to their faces. Of course, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. There are lots of misinformed Catholics out there, who are taught that the Catholic teaching is right because it's Catholic, and that's that. If it's not from a Catholic source, it's automatically not something they trust even in objective matters of church history, and if it is, they don't know what to do with it. I remember a discussion I had with a Catholic once who denied that Rome called for violence upon Protestants. I linked him a copy of Exsurge Domine from a Catholic site which proves that Leo X did, and I don't think I ever heard from him again.

Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?
I'm Protestant, so yes I believe they are wrong. Not full-blown heretical wrong, but wrong. The Gospel can be found within their teachings, the problem is you have to dig through so much stuff to get to it. As for what would be useful to you, there's a gap between what the Roman Catholic Church "officially" teaches and what many Catholics believe that it teaches. This gives me the option of providing strawmen when listing teachings I have heard rank-and-file Catholics claim, and posting official teachings I disagree with that the rank-and-file Catholics don't necessarily believe. If there's a specific issue you want to bounce off of me though, you can PM me.
 
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and I felt myself getting annoyed because this person was telling me things about Revelations that are wrong. For example, saying that the book of Revelations is what the Catholic mass is based on? What? I left behind the Catholic faith. I don't particularly want to go back. Anyway, the issue here is I get annoyed when talking to people to are wrong and insist they are right. I don't want to be like this. Any suggestions?
Sure, ask them if this is an official binding interpretation or their own interpretation? If they assert the former, ask them for the substantiation. Then you can ask them for the basis of their assurance that the RC church is correct over that of any opposing interpretation. Then deal with the usual self-destructive logic.

If they say it is their own interpretation, as them if this is a valid basis for assurance that they are right, and if that would also apply in your case.
Also--- is Catholicism wrong? Catholics believe in Jesus and stuff, but in your opinion, what parts of their beliefs and rituals do you find erroneous or unnecessary?
Indeed it is wrong. Catholic distinctives are not manifest (see link) in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed, and including how they understood the OT and gospels, and she has many contradictions.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

PeaceByJesus

Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior
Feb 20, 2013
2,779
2,095
USA
Visit site
✟83,561.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
That is just the author's opinion. Revelation is about how the world ends.
It is also about worship, which is what the Catholic extrapolates to support her unScriptural Mass. For in Catholicism Scripture is often an abused servant that is compelled to support Rome. Ever see what lengths they must go to in order to support their tradition of prayer to created beings in Heaven , seeing as there is not one single prayer by believers to anyone else in Heaven but the Lord (who instructed praying to the Father) , despite the Holy Spirit inspiring the recording of over 200 prayers in Scripture, and this being a most basic essential practice, and there always being plenty of created beings in Heaven to pray to.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Yarddog

Senior Contributor
Site Supporter
Jun 25, 2008
16,808
4,207
Louisville, Ky
✟1,007,702.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Well, it's a matter of knowing the material and being able to show them the proof to their faces. Of course, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it. There are lots of misinformed Catholics out there, who are taught that the Catholic teaching is right because it's Catholic, and that's that. If it's not from a Catholic source, it's automatically not something they trust even in objective matters of church history, and if it is, they don't know what to do with it. I remember a discussion I had with a Catholic once who denied that Rome called for violence upon Protestants. I linked him a copy of Exsurge Domine from a Catholic site which proves that Leo X did, and I don't think I ever heard from him again.


I'm Protestant, so yes I believe they are wrong. Not full-blown heretical wrong, but wrong. The Gospel can be found within their teachings, the problem is you have to dig through so much stuff to get to it. As for what would be useful to you, there's a gap between what the Roman Catholic Church "officially" teaches and what many Catholics believe that it teaches. This gives me the option of providing strawmen when listing teachings I have heard rank-and-file Catholics claim, and posting official teachings I disagree with that the rank-and-file Catholics don't necessarily believe. If there's a specific issue you want to bounce off of me though, you can PM me.
I would agree that there are a lot of misinformed Catholics but that is no different than any other church. I would like for the Church to do a better job of teaching young Catholics what the Church's doctrines are so they understand better.

I was raised Baptist and then evangelical through TV ministries but called by God into the Catholic Church. I personally don't like debating doctrine because the important thing is that God accepts our faith and yours as well. The proof lies in the possession of God's Spirit.
 
Upvote 0

Sketcher

Born Imperishable
Feb 23, 2004
39,043
9,485
✟419,397.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
I was raised Baptist and then evangelical through TV ministries but called by God into the Catholic Church. I personally don't like debating doctrine because the important thing is that God accepts our faith and yours as well. The proof lies in the possession of God's Spirit.
You'd say then, that God accepts Protestants' faith and that Protestants have God's Spirit?
 
Upvote 0

SolomonVII

Well-Known Member
Sep 4, 2003
23,138
4,919
Vancouver
✟162,516.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Greens
I agree. Scott Hahn turned me off as a Catholic big time! He was one of many writers/commentators who drove me away. His caricature of Orthodox Christianity being a bunch of weird bearded ethnic goons couldn't have been further from the truth. In a way I thank Hahn, because his caricatures and silly overgeneralizations got me oriented toward Christ's First, True Church---The Orthodox Church.
I never heard him calling anybody goons. I would like to see the quote on that.
 
Upvote 0

Basil the Great

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mar 9, 2009
4,773
4,091
✟787,816.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Green
There is much to be admired in Catholic worship and theology. I strongly agree with Catholics that we should pray for the dead. I like the idea of kneeling pads that Catholics have in their churches. I am uncertain about praying to saints for intercession. It does seem that they emphasize the role of Mary very much though. The bottom line is that Catholics are Christians, just as much as Protestants and Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox. We are all followers of Jesus. As I keep reminding folks here on CF, the beloved late Dr. Billy Graham accepted Catholics as brothers and sisters in Christ way back in the 1950's..... We are only two years away from the 2020's. I keep hoping that one day every poster here, or virtually poster, will come to the realization that the late Dr. Billy Graham was right!
 
Upvote 0

Mountainmike

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Nov 2, 2016
4,818
1,642
67
Northern uk
✟664,011.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
You say Christians "who are wrong" when what you mean is "in your opinion". If you start from a base of trying to understand why they think what they do, it might become less polarized?

One of the big issues, if not THE issue that separates catholics from others is the question "By what authority" do christians believe their interpretation of scripture and doctrine is correct. (great book , by that name by Mark Shea - read it).

Catholics accept what the early fathers taught , that is those taught by apostles, the faith handed down, (the greek word paradosis, translated as "tradition" but the word "tradition" also carries colloquial interpretation which is not helpful). It is not as opponents believe "other stuff added" to scripture. It is ALL of the faith handed down by succession (which is what it was for the early chuch). And gives meaning to scripture, and is why Paul tells you to "hold true" to it.

Read such as iraneus, (who we rely on to know who wrote the gospels!) who puts tradition in context. It is the mechanism of the passage of the entireity of faith handed by succession bishops (he says) with primacy at Rome. The canon of new testament was still some way in the future. The early church was not sola scriptura, nor did anyone think that till mediaeval times.

Catholics also accept what Jesus taught in regard to the power to "bind and loose" (meaning give authoritative decisions on doctrinal disputes) separately to the apostles and to Peter , the holder of office of keys. Which is the basis of understanding why scripture says "the foundation of truth is the church" Indeed without church authority you would not have a definitive canon you call the new testament or the creed, all decided in council.

The canon was actively chosen. The first canons were deemed heretical (as iraneus points out and rejected by Rome (eg marcions)), and there were many books in circulation which "claimed" apostolic authorship. Many were rejected by the church, before councils decided and rubber stamped the canon.


The catholic church (small c) was formed by Christ " church will be one" - "gates of hell will not prevail" and started with the apostles, but they as early fathers show, taught and handed on to bishops.. The first references to "catholic church" are in the first century AD, for example Ignatius refers to it in his writings. It means "universal".

Other than some groups declared as heretical (eg gnoistics, arians) there was only one church. There were not denominations with "alternative conflicting beliefs" as the reformation churches are now.

It was not until the easterns split away to become what is now the "orthodox" that it became necessary to give a name to the (much larger) remainder of the church root, when others began to call it "roman" to distinguish it from east. But the name "roman catholic" did not indicate the date of formation - nor was it a name used by the church it is a name that was used by others to describe it, and relates to the date of others splitting away. Later the word "roman" also began to describe flavours of Liturgy. "roman or western rite" vs "eastern rite" catholics, but these are still full communion and share the same doctrine.

Till then it was the "catholic church" Now study what that church did and believed. It was liturgical, sacramental, believed in apostolic succession through appointed bishops, believed in real presence in the mass, and sacramental baptism. All the cornerstones of catholic practice today. Not much has changed in two millennia. Understanding has evolved a little resulting in derived doctrne (eg trinity) And whilst we have differences with the orthodox, they agree on those points.

Several of the earliest fathers who knew/ were taught by the apostles refer to the importance of (succession) bishops, Iraneus refers to the episcopate starting with linus...through to his time, which chain is later extended and referred to in full by Augustine up to the time of the new testament formalization and creed

The entire reason for the post is to say... rather than declare catholics "wrong" - by which you mean you have a "different opinion", try to work out by what authority your opinion is right? and also understand why Catholics believe what they do regarding authority in order to converse with them. They point out rightly that "sola scriptura" is an invention of the medieaval church, it was never the basis of the passage of faith in the early church, nor does scripture anywhere claim it, indeed it identifies truth outside of itself, and simple logic refutes it. So the question all must ask, is where is the truth that resolves the ambiguities if you just take scripture? Many claim they "discerned the holy spirit" as authority. It clearly has not worked. Because they belief different, even opposite things.

ALL factions view scripture through a lens of their own tradition. Not all recognise it, and certainly not all hold the tradition of the early church, they substitute it with later documents. Indeed some - hand down doctrine (tradtion) which are heresies were outed in early church (eg modalism, oneness pentecostalism). That they believe it is "their tradition" but is certainly not that of early church. Such as the "augsburg" and "westminster" confessions are attempts at substituting catholic tradition with another document. Sola scriptura itself, viewed by catholics is a man made tradition. It was started by several identifiable people as an article of faith handed down from then on in the second millenium

I also point to the fact that many intelligent and well read people post reformation have come to scripture and on every aspect of doctrine, they disagree what it means, which is why protestant churches have so many conflicted indeed mutually exclusive views. Even on basics like baptism, salvation and eucharist. And the fact they are intelligent - well read - demonstrates there IS something missing from scripture alone, or why do they all disagree? These arefundamentals: eg OSAS, saved can lose it, not saved to the end. The method, applicability, outcome and purpose of baptism (which is the entry to the church) are all disputed and are polar opposite beliefs in some cases..

Catholics accept the historic fact that faith was passed by tradition and tradition gives meaning to scripture (eg "body and blood" really does mean "flesh of jesus" quote justin martyr writing in the first century. Nowhere did Jesus say write this, most of the apostles did not, he told his disciples to teach and "do this"

The point I make is first try to understand why catholics think what they do, and study early fathers (some of whom were taught by apostles) and see why catholics think that.

Yeah, I don't know what it is about me. The person with whom I was conversing must have read this book by Dr. Hahn. I can handle debating with atheists, and those of other religions, but for some reason, I get really really annoyed when I speak with other Christians/Catholics who are wrong and come off as if they are the ones who are correct. Particularly Catholics---I was on a date with a guy one time who lost interest in me the second I revealed I wasn't Catholic. He acted like I was some sort of heretic, and claimed that the 12 disciples of Christ were Catholics! Even though Catholicism did not even exist in Jesus' time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0