Conversations with Staff in Married Forum

Sacerdote, I do appreciate your input, but I have to say that across the bar, not all people who become Pastors have any experience in or education in psychology or counseling. A lot of christian women and men ask for advice with their religious authority first. If it doesn't "sit right", they reach out online quite often, whilst covering their internet tracks.

Myself, I've known about ten separate women in the last year alone who have left abusive spouses. Not all were escalating to physicalities. For the most part it was money and medical care being withheld from them, and gaslighting as well as other mental abuse. I can only thank G-d for the women on the forum who have either experience as survivors or as mandatory reporters and counselors who knew what to do and what resources to send them to.


I have personally seen an acquaintance of mine that I never had an inkling something was wrong hint at abuse to me prior to escaping from her abuser. She now blogs here.
She was not allowed to leave the house with all of the kids, ever. It was the grace of G-d and quick thinking women that helped her plan her escape before she was ever able to contact a DV shelter. Her pastor did not know, because her abuser had long since moved her away from family, from friends, and removed them out of the church to hold "house church".

I'd love to say this is just a small minority of how abusers work, but I've seen it over and over again since she got out.


Unless pastors or church counselors have an expertise in domestic violence prevention and assistance - odds are the help won't be coming from them.

I've seen several sisters become excommunicated or otherwise shunned from their churches for protecting their children because "the sanctity of marriage is a higher calling" and "you must submit, that he may be won".


The odds of a woman being involved in DV is one in four. And of the women not involved, she knows many who are, or may be related to those who are. In my family, there are four that I know of who were abused and two that I suspect are being abused. I've had three close friends in DV situations.

Until they are ready to hear it, they will not even be open to hearing the options available to them by law, or by Scripture. This is why it is imperitive that we be loosened to let them know, because even as wonderful as DV campaigns are, abusers have ways of hiding or masking reality so that they feel there is absolutely no way out.

If I'm recalling correctly, we've had two women in the last year post between Married Couples or the Women's forum about DV issues and we have constantly referred them to separation to get safe and contacting a DV shelter or hotline immediately and figuring out what their options are in their state/country of residence.

Truth be told, in many states, the protections offered by separation are not the same as divorce. Only the man or woman in a DV situation can determine with help of DV counselors and their lawyers to determine what protection measures they need to employ while the police slowly run their end of paperwork.

Many pastors (at least in the areas I hail from) do not have any experience with this. The ones I know, told these women I knew to stay in their abusive situation. It's a travesty really.

What MM is saying is true. This article echoes what she's saying:

It may be extremely difficult for the wife to convey what she has experienced. The community
will probably be unable to see past the charming ways of the husband. People will often respond
in a scrutinizing or critical manner toward the wife or reject her altogether. Many may give the
husband a supportive ear instead of holding him accountable. This behavior inadvertently
encourages him to continue his abuse. Abusive men draw energy and self-justification from
people who listen in silence. When the crowds disappear, the wife becomes the target of his
increased anger~http://hupotasso.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/the-silent-killer-of-christian-marriages.pdf

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Hi MessianicMommy,

Your post has things for all of us to consider. It shows how we have to work together to affect change. The abuse numbers are staggering. We just have to keep doing God's work. I am grateful that the people who came through here were helped. Much of my work is referring. I learned early on that getting the right person to the right person was smarter than thinking I or any one person could do everything. What do you think we need to do in the Married Couples Forums to help better.

Shalom.

Luther073082 said:

So in a sense our posts where deleted and one person I know received a warning because we dispensed Biblical advice based on the fact that the OP's spouse admitted adultery and was disinterested in healing the marriage.

So if the idea of this is to have a place where one can receive biblical advice, it would seem not only logical but also necessary to allow for advice of divorce in instances of adultery and abandonment as well. And the rule seems to be entirely inconsistent with the purpose of this being a place where one may receive biblical advice.

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I don't think giving Biblical advice is the aim of the forum rules. That doesn't seem to be the case just looking at some of the rules. My guess is some of the rules are designed to prevent controversy and excessive work for moderators. Other rules may be there to minimize the chances of unqualified people giving certain types of advice.

A New Dawn said:

The guideline was posted above, I will copy it here.

Statement of Purpose: Married Couples - updated 3/7/2012

Divorce is not to be promoted in this forum except in cases where individuals are in physical danger. Those who are contemplating divorce due to extenuating circumstances may be able to find support in the recovery forums.​

The highlighted portion speaks to your concern. It would be helpful if people don't make more of it than it is.

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I hope I'm allowed to say this .... I'm a bit taken back by your response. What I wrote was after I read the guideline in question, and that non physical forms of abuse was mentioned.

That is why I wrote what I did. I don't think - as most people that have never dealt with this issue - that this approach may not be as well thought out as it should be. It wasn't a slam/rebuke - its just reality. The bible speaks of more than one form (scripture I referenced as one example), and I realize that physical is the most typical that comes to mind. I was asking for people to rethink this, because the realm should be larger than just 'physical'....sadly.

I do believe if you read the entire portion of what I wrote it would be a bit more in context. I mean I was referring to 'non physical' forms of abuse. So asking me to not make something more than what it is? That was never my intention AT ALL! I was asking your all to reconsider your approach due to dynamics most don't stop to think about - thankfully because they don't have too! You all in a position you may have to more than you would be comfortable with - again sadly. I would assume its part of your role here - as it is in my role as an adminstrator on another board. lol Yes we do have royally icky parts to deal with - I feel for you believe me!

Keep in mind the references before I said what I did was referring also to non physical forms of abuse as well. I was following the train of thought. Physical of course can get people killed, but other forms are seriously soul crushing. Yes, they are that serious.

I took the guideline to mean that if the person ISN'T in physical danger don't mention it because we don't promote divorce. I was asking for that viewpoint to be expanded, because sadly its to narrow. When separation - or in areas that legal separation is not allowed - divorce is mentioned its due to safety reasons primarily. It isn't meant as divorce is being promoted here. I doubt very highly anyone that wishes for it to be expanded EVER felt it should be brought up willy nilly like that. I think we wanted to you to reconsider the true realities of many lifes that in too many other places do get overlooked - because its much to dirty to deal with.

Honestly - I'm NOT trying to be ugly here! NOR am I trying to get you defensive, and yet that is what I feel you are reading from me.

LinkH said:

I don't think giving Biblical advice is the aim of the forum rules.

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If not, then that would cancel out most of the advice given to OP's here, yours included.

My guess is some of the rules are designed to prevent controversy and excessive work for moderators. Other rules may be there to minimize the chances of unqualified people giving certain types of advice.

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I believe that much of the 'controversy prevention' could be managed by simply stating objective opinion, rather than subjective "fact" based on our own cultural bent or interpretation of biblical 'truth'. But as this isn't the subject of this current discussion I'll leave that alone...

HannahT said:

I hope I'm allowed to say this .... I'm a bit taken back by your response. What I wrote was after I read the guideline in question, and that non physical forms of abuse was mentioned.

That is why I wrote what I did. I don't think - as most people that have never dealt with this issue - that this approach may not be as well thought out as it should be. It wasn't a slam/rebuke - its just reality. The bible speaks of more than one form (scripture I referenced as one example), and I realize that physical is the most typical that comes to mind. I was asking for people to rethink this, because the realm should be larger than just 'physical'....sadly.

I do believe if you read the entire portion of what I wrote it would be a bit more in context. I mean I was referring to 'non physical' forms of abuse. So asking me to not make something more than what it is? That was never my intention AT ALL! I was asking your all to reconsider your approach due to dynamics most don't stop to think about - thankfully because they don't have too! You all in a position you may have to more than you would be comfortable with - again sadly. I would assume its part of your role here - as it is in my role as an adminstrator on another board. lol Yes we do have royally icky parts to deal with - I feel for you believe me!

Keep in mind the references before I said what I did was referring also to non physical forms of abuse as well. I was following the train of thought. Physical of course can get people killed, but other forms are seriously soul crushing. Yes, they are that serious.

I took the guideline to mean that if the person ISN'T in physical danger don't mention it because we don't promote divorce. I was asking for that viewpoint to be expanded, because sadly its to narrow. When separation - or in areas that legal separation is not allowed - divorce is mentioned its due to safety reasons primarily. It isn't meant as divorce is being promoted here. I doubt very highly anyone that wishes for it to be expanded EVER felt it should be brought up willy nilly like that. I think we wanted to you to reconsider the true realities of many lifes that in too many other places do get overlooked - because its much to dirty to deal with.

Honestly - I'm NOT trying to be ugly here! NOR am I trying to get you defensive, and yet that is what I feel you are reading from me.

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I understand his position though. If someone is in an abusive situation it is a horrible place to be in. Nobody likes to be abused by someone that is a predator. However if a person is not in physical danger why should we promote divorce? Why is it that separation and or therapy is not enough? I could understand if your argument was "if they ask should they get a divorce because of verbal/mental abuse" then you should be allowed to advise that.

I just personally think its wrong to advise someone to get a divorce based on verbal abuse particularly when that's not the road they want to take. There is separation(which allows an time for that person to decide) there is marriage counseling(where the abused can confront). I don't see why these options are not enough. I don't understand why we have to influence a divorce when the person being verbally abused doesn't want that.

I don't think that's fair to the poster.

Thanks everyone for participating. I'm going to close the thread for the night. A New Dawn or another staff member may open it a little later. God bless everyone.

I am opening this back up for further discussion.

sacerdote said:

Hi MessianicMommy,

Your post has things for all of us to consider. It shows how we have to work together to affect change. The abuse numbers are staggering. We just have to keep doing God's work. I am grateful that the people who came through here were helped. Much of my work is referring. I learned early on that getting the right person to the right person was smarter than thinking I or any one person could do everything. What do you think we need to do in the Married Couples Forums to help better.

Shalom.

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Thank you for understanding. I totally appreciate everything that you work hard with this community to do. That's pretty much all we're asking, is that our hands are freed to refer individuals to the right people to assist them, and be aware of what may have to be done to keep them safe from any escalation.

Avniel said:

I understand his position though. If someone is in an abusive situation it is a horrible place to be in. Nobody likes to be abused by someone that is a predator. However if a person is not in physical danger why should we promote divorce? Why is it that separation and or therapy is not enough? I could understand if your argument was "if they ask should they get a divorce because of verbal/mental abuse" then you should be allowed to advise that.

I just personally think its wrong to advise someone to get a divorce based on verbal abuse particularly when that's not the road they want to take. There is separation(which allows an time for that person to decide) there is marriage counseling(where the abused can confront). I don't see why these options are not enough. I don't understand why we have to influence a divorce when the person being verbally abused doesn't want that.

I don't think that's fair to the poster.

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I can respect your questions. I truly can. Again I'm not saying anyone should 'promote' anything. Honestly I'm not. We can't be afraid to mention it though.

The first thing you need to make sure they hear is validation. Why? They might have a light of confidence about them presently, but most of the time they are doubt almost everything they do. They need to hear - that is abuse. Abuse is unacceptable.

That is not to say they will own that just because they hear it, because it is a hard thing to face. They know it in the back of their minds, but they are not ready to face it. They are scared to, and validating them shows them its okay. That step of the process people underestimate, yet it is probably one of the hardest. There is a huge sense of shame that goes with that ownership.

Remember most of the time abusers will tell the victims no one will believe them, or take them seriously. When you shut down the conversation - you have just enforced their lie.

Verbal abuse also stems from power and control - as does physical abuse. There are many people that will not be willing to give that up, because honestly in their broken minds they see no incentive to do so. They are the top dog in charge, and all they have to do is lash out - and everyone gives them what they need as they run for cover. How many dictators do we know that knowingly gave up their position? (speaking of principal here - not literally)

Just like any other sick person - you can't force them into facing reality. Chances are pretty darn good that they will tell the family THEY are the ones that need therapy - not them. They are the crazy ones, and they are the reason they act as they do. If forced into therapy? Well - look at other cases when it was 'court ordered', and you will see that doesn't work in most cases. They don't see it as doing what it right for them. There is no benefit that they see to bend even a little. They will do the motions, play the game, and when they are cut loose? The cycle continues.

They also have some parts common with physical abusers. If they see the family slipping from their grasp - they escalate. I can't tell you how many cases - men and women - when reasoning with them made them worse. They attempted to separate, and the perp lost control - and lashed out. Think of the mindset there for a moment. The family feels the physical threat before it happens, but no one will take them seriously because they haven't done it yet. Combine that with the fear already present - and sadly it can indeed paralyse them.

Sadly, that is when stalking starts to happen - or other irrational behavior. They call 40 times a day. The tears start to flow, but they aren't contrite in an healthy way. If you listen to them closely they will apologize, but there is always a "BUT". ie; you are as bad as I am, you don't listen to me, etc. There is no ownership, but BOY can they make their lot in life sounds terrible. Its a game they have played numerous times before, and it worked for them. One thing I have seen that is VERY common? The family will confront the abuser in some way, and they will use that confrontation to show they are just as bad they as they. Lets say they get upset,and yell back at them. They are the told SEE you YELL also - your abusive as well!

Big difference between pattern of behavior - compared to being ugly once in a while. One is being human, and the other is part of their personality dynamic. The intent is not the same.

People in this position need to make their own decisions. They have to feel a sense of control over their lifes, because they haven't had it for way to long. Its a way of grabbing some of their self respect back. They will move when they are ready, and people shouldn't pressure them at all. They do need to know that option is on the table, because their well being is the most important at this point. Don't push, but they need to know its there. THEY have to be ready, because it will get ugly FAST! That a scary thing to face, and yet their safely and well being is at risk - and they are starting to realize this.

What normally doesn't come up is the neglect they are used to dealing with, and people don't have any idea of. I dealt with a case where the abuser locked up all the food - literally - and gave it out when he felt they earned it. The family coped with this so long, and with all the other trauma going on - they never mentioned it. The other stuff hurt them and scared them more. Another case was when a family member got food poisoning, and they refused to get them help. They might have died on the bathroom floor if another 'outside' the immediate family member didn't come and find them. The abuser's excuse? They didn't think it was that bad, and yet didn't raise a finger to help either.

There is a lot more going on than words. The abusive person most of the time blocks them from getting help as well. The family is scared to death as to what will happen if they do reach out. Think of news stories, and you will realize that dynamic isn't uncommon either.

People seem to feel that if the option of separation/divorce is on the table they are going to rush over to take it. They won't. Chances are they love them, and they just want it to stop (the abuse). No doubt they will continue to endure the abuse, and that won't stop until they are ready themselves. Most people continue to hope for the change after they leave, and yet that is another aspect people don't talk about. We hear about how many times individuals leave before they do it for the last time? Sadly, that is their hope and yearning talking. I mean they DO love the person, but they are indeed toxic to the soul. The abuser is also toxic to themselves, but good luck with them to facing that. They don't see the point to it. (I can't understand that part either!)

Honestly? I think at times we fail both the victim, abusive person, and family most of the time. There is no good answers or options most of the time.

Most of these are really extreme cases, though. What mostly happens is that people fall out of love (if they were ever really in love), and want to divorce for that reason. This is the case of most people who want to divorce. I think this is what the rule was made for, for the person who comes in and says that they just "aren't feeling it anymore" (however they state it) and want out.

Good Morning Everyone,

All of the chaplains here are experienced in various marital situations and abuse. However, we are only three and can't be on all the forums all the time. But, if someone gives us a heads up that such and such member needs some support we will respond appropriately. The staff members of Recovery are also trained to help victims of abuse and will also lend a hand if asked. The Recovery Forums are a great place to seek help and the staff there stays in touch with the members in their forum as we do with the members in Ask A Chaplain Forum or from pm's. Both the chaplains and Recovery staff work hand-in-hand to help members. We are blessed in this regard, praise God.

WalksWithChrist said:

They are extreme and they happen more often than we think. That's the real problem. Just because they are extreme doesn't mean we stop short in our efforts to help those in extreme situations.

If this rule was made for the people that fell out of love, then that was misguided. I really doubt many people here are pushing for divorce as an option when it's simply a matter of falling out of love. From what I've seen, in those cases counseling and patience is the advice given most often.

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I think that when people fall out of love (or out of like), then they are going to exaggerate everything that happens, no matter how little it is, and give it the appearance that is is more than it is (normal disagreements between two people.)

I look at this from two different points of view, and can see why each feels their point is necessarily right. I was married when I was 19 to someone who was manipulative, at his best, and physically abusive at his worst. I was abused in private, kept hostage except for work, threatened that I wouldn't live if I told anyone about it, and mentally abused in public. With the help of my family I left on my 21st birthday and got divorced. Even after I left he stalked me and continued to threaten me. When I left, I swore I'd never be in the position of feeling threatened/unsafe again.

When I got married the second time, it was to someone who didn't love me back (some of us never learn), but I thought I could love him enough for both of us. Unfortunately after 8 or 9 years, I started feeling resentful, he developed some beliefs that were incompatible with the commitments we understood about each other when we got married, and so when serious problems developed and I wanted to seek counseling, he absolutely refused. His opinion was that we got ourselves into the problems, we can get ourselves out of them. His idea of "fixing" things was to rearrange chores at home. After 11 years, even though he had not been violent in the beginning, he started throwing things. At that point, the self-defense mechanism I developed from my first marriage kicked in and I left.

The first one I felt was unavoidable, the second one could have been avoided, had someone besides me suggested that he/we seek counseling.

A New Dawn said:

Most of these are really extreme cases, though....

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One in four women in the USA. One in 4 women in Germany. Men -- the numbers are not in, because most men do NOT get help. In India, the numbers are 1 in 3.

These are NOT extreme cases. This is one in four women. Sit women in a room and every fourth (or more depending on your demographics) have been in an abusive dating/marital situation. This doesn't account for the women who were abused as children. Those numbers are higher!

So what, we just dig a hole and put our heads back in?

sacerdote said:

Good Morning Everyone,

All of the chaplains here are experienced in various marital situations and abuse. However, we are only three and can't be on all the forums all the time. But, if someone gives us a heads up that such and such member needs some support we will respond appropriately. The staff members of Recovery are also trained to help victims of abuse and will also lend a hand if asked. The Recovery Forums are a great place to seek help and the staff there stays in touch with the members in their forum as we do with the members in Ask A Chaplain Forum or from pm's. Both the chaplains and Recovery staff work hand-in-hand to help members. We are blessed in this regard, praise God.

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I know this probably sounds like an annoying drip in the sink at the middle of the night...
But, how will this help those of us in the forum who have training or experience to help as well if we are moving someone elsewhere in the forum? This could very well make the person asking for help to clam up and move on.

WalksWithChrist said:

If this rule was made for the people that fell out of love, then that was misguided. I really doubt many people here are pushing for divorce as an option when it's simply a matter of falling out of love. From what I've seen, in those cases counseling and patience is the advice given most often.

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Yep.

Are you feeling regret over your second marriage (and how it ended), New Dawn? It may offer you some solace if you read Lundy Bancroft's book, "Why Does He Do That". If you want something a little less in depth, IMO......his blog has loads of insight. Healing and Hope: Search results for charm

MessianicMommy said:

One in four women in the USA. One in 4 women in Germany. Men -- the numbers are not in, because most men do NOT get help. In India, the numbers are 1 in 3.

These are NOT extreme cases. This is one in four women. Sit women in a room and every fourth (or more depending on your demographics) have been in an abusive dating/marital situation. This doesn't account for the women who were abused as children. Those numbers are higher!

So what, we just dig a hole and put our heads back in?

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Again, what part of "a dangerous situation" would not apply in these instances? Why are you ignoring that part of the rule?