"Convergence - Confessions of a Charismatic Calvinist"

[rapturefish]

Anybody ever read or hear of this book - or the guy who wrote it - Dr. Sam Storms. I was given this book by my pastor and started reading it yesterday. Of course it brings us back to the whole "gifts of the Spirit" debate - but I would really like to know what people think of this guy and his book.

This is a topic that I have a hard time with - so I may or may not put up a review of the book after I have finished it. I am very undecided in regards to my personal stand on the issue - so any review I did would be tainted I think...

Might I suggest you post the same question in the Spirit-filled section of the forums for another point of view. You might find it an interesting comparison.

I've taken a peek here because I used to go to a Presbyterian church and happen to technically still be a member of that church. Three or so years ago however I became Spirit-filled and things obviously took a big turn in my life as a christian.

Sam Storms would probably be considered a part of the "Third-Wave" movement of churches. He was a theological mind who grew up attending a Southern Baptist church right up until he attended seminary. He has pastored a Presbyterian church and been to two independent churches, a Vineyard church and a charismatic Anglican church, according to his book, The Beginner's Guide to Spiritual Gifts. He admits that his primary reasons for changing his views from cessationism were from; one, that he felt the biblical evidence didn't back up the cessationist argument; and two, he was frankly embarrassed by the appearance and behaviour of charismatic christians. He was also afraid, afraid of the classic things cessationists mention such as emotionalism, etc. and the fear that he might be in any way linked with such embarrasing people and lose the place he had as an evangelical and had worked so hard for.

I think for someone with such a background it would take something rather significant to cause them to rethink their paradigm about spiritual gifts and make such a change. Considering the fears he had and what he stood to lose for calling himself a Spirit-filled christian, it should be taken into account that his shift was no mere slip or mistake but a decision.

More than that I don't know his background. He is a contemporary of Jack Deere and probably a read of Jack Deere's Surprised by the Power of the Holy Spirit might give some idea of their wavelength.

One common statement I do hear, and it has appeared in this thread too, is that charismatics believe in tongues, prophecy, words of knowledge, etc. and therefore believe in extra-biblical revelation; because of that that means they believe God speaks new revelation outside the bible and this just has to be wrong.

Let it be clarified that Pentecostals and charismatics (they are different as firestarter has explained well) believe in the bible as the word of God and that they believe in no new doctrines outside it. Let it also be clarified that believing in tongues and prophecy and the other supernatural gifts as for today does not equal believing that there are new doctrines being taught today with the authority of scripture; the belief is that such gifts are of God and do speak to people today but not in terms of doctrine or scripture but in terms of encouragement, exhortation, rebuke and edification as mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12-14 and as seen practised in the book of Acts.

In Acts we see the use of prophecy and words as God revealing something spontaneously to people to 'tell forth', and these things have served as warnings (e.g. Agabus' prophecy to Paul, Ananias and Sapphira) and as rebukes (e.g. Peter addressing the crowd at Pentecost) and directives (e.g. Acts 13:1-3), as well as encourgement, exhoration and edification (1 Corinthians 12-14). None of these add to doctrine as read in scripture but speak to a person's situation and brought about spiritual blessing. The nature of these words always conforms to the character of God and therefore bears the marks of grace, mercy, love and peace, etc.

Therefore to believe that supernatural spiritual gifts are for today does not go against believing that the word of God is complete and that no new doctrine will be added to the word. If sola scriptura means that God only speaks through the word and in no other way today then I would disagree with that; I believe that many christians from outside Pentecostal or charismatic circles believe God speaks in many ways, but always in conformity with the word. but if sola scriptura means that there is no new doctrine outside the word itself then I would agree.

Our understanding of the word however has changed over time as better scholarship and better interpretation has come about, and in that sense it can appear that new things and new teachings seem to come about - but in reality the same scripture has been at the centre of these things; only the interpretation might've improved.

My personal testimony is that God worked in my life and healed me of unforgiveness. Because that promise from scripture came true in my life in such a miraculous way (overnight healing of unforgiveness is in my view miraculous) it caused me to look into the word and reexamine my thinking. Over time I became unconvinced of the arguments for cessationism and more and more convinced that a straightforward reading of scripture supported the spiritual gifts as being for today.

As I became convinced of this I acted on what I believed the word to say in regard to tongues. As I acted in faith and asked for it God graced me with spiritual language and conrfirmed that my faith that spiritual gifts were for today was a true one. The fruit of that has been a fullness and boldness of spirit, an inherent desire to praise God for much longer and more passionately than ever before.

If anyone has further questions I'm happy to oblige.

blessings,

 

[drstevej]

More than that I don't know his background. He is a contemporary of Jack Deere and probably a read of Jack Deere's Surprised by the Power of the Holy Spirit might give some idea of their wavelength.

Was at Dallas seminary with Jackie Deere and Sam Storms and fairly good friends with both. Jack was a year ahead of me and Sam a year or two behind me. I am pretty sure Sam knew jackie and was aware of his journey from DTS into the Vineyard. Their accounts do have parallels.

Jackie in seminary was more involved with Young Life and Sam was involved with Believer's Chapel (a Plymouth-Brethren ecclesiology, non denominational, Calvinistic assembly started by Dr. S. Lewis Johnson -- long time Calvinistic professor at Dallas).

Having received essentially the same ThM education as both of these guys, I would characterize it as clearly cessationist and anti-Charismatic in a doctrinal (not personal) sense.

Both are brilliant guys. After graduation Jackie taught at Dallas and was involved with Christ Chapel Bible Church while Sam regularly preached at Believer's Chapel. Both were very academic minded guys. And I think it is easy after the rigorous academic training at DTS for theology to be come a system and a way of thinking. The result can be emotional and spiritual dryness.

I believe the shift in both Jackie and Sam was not just theological/exegetical but a search for balance (knowing about Him and knowing Him personally). After seminary I felt the same need for balance and found it in pastoral ministry and especially working through 6 miscarriages.

I have not talked with either since their shift. I respect both even though my journey did not take the turn theirs did.

 

[AndOne]

Steve -

Since you knew these guys personally I am curious to know what your thoughts are on their paticular journeys. Do you think they made a mistake?

 

[rapturefish]

Was at Dallas seminary with Jackie Deere and Sam Storms and fairly good friends with both. Jack was a year ahead of me and Sam a year or two behind me. I am pretty sure Sam knew jackie and was aware of his journey from DTS into the Vineyard. Their accounts do have parallels.

Jackie in seminary was more involved with Young Life and Sam was involved with Believer's Chapel (a Plymouth-Brethren ecclesiology, non denominational, Calvinistic assembly started by Dr. S. Lewis Johnson -- long time Calvinistic professor at Dallas).

Having received essentially the same ThM education as both of these guys, I would characterize it as clearly cessationist and anti-Charismatic in a doctrinal (not personal) sense.

Both are brilliant guys. After graduation Jackie taught at Dallas and was involved with Christ Chapel Bible Church while Sam regularly preached at Believer's Chapel. Both were very academic minded guys. And I think it is easy after the rigorous academic training at DTS for theology to be come a system and a way of thinking. The result can be emotional and spiritual dryness.

I believe the shift in both Jackie and Sam was not just theological/exegetical but a search for balance (knowing about Him and knowing Him personally). After seminary I felt the same need for balance and found it in pastoral ministry and especially working through 6 miscarriages.

I have not talked with either since their shift. I respect both even though my journey did not take the turn theirs did.

Wow, that's a pretty close degree of separation, calling Jack Jackie and all. A unique sketch of the two, thanks for that. I'm sorry to hear of the miscarriages, but glad you found balance to your christian life.

What were they like in terms of character?

Jack Deere had a part to play in my journey to pentecostal christianity, though he may not realise it. I was in a real bind with being hurt by a fellow church member at the time in Hong Kong. As it happened someone else invited me to this conference and there in the midst of a local Assemblies of God church was Jack Deere. He spoke very clearly and succintly about spiritual gifts. Afterwards I approached him as did not a few people and I told him about my struggles, i could barely speak due to the pain emotionally. He directly but not unlovingly asked me, "have you forgiven her?" and I replied that I was trying. He prayed with me, then asked me to come back the next day for the talk then. The topic? Forgiveness.

The next night I heard the talk. Once again, his teaching was clear as a bell and I realised for the first time that forgiveness was about one's healing and so I prayed desperately as I was surrounded by very lively local HK worshippers. I chose to forgive, and asked God for the strength because I had none left in me to.

The next day, I went to work and only as I went through my day did I realise that something had changed. It dawned on me that the burden had lifted and I was healed, that I was smiling and that my passion for the Lord had returned. Just the day before I was heavy, dry, and found it hard to have anything to do with reading the bible, praying, going to church and God because my pain occurred in the church.

Thanks to that turnaround I began to reexamine everything I had learnt and so began the journey to Pentecostal christianity. So I do owe Jack the thanks for his part and give the glory to God.

blessings,

 

[drstevej]

What were they like in terms of character?

Steve -

Since you knew these guys personally I am curious to know what your thoughts are on their paticular journeys. Do you think they made a mistake?

Since I have not discussed their journey with them after their turn I am not in a position to comment. As I said, I respect both and know that both have a love for the Lord and respect for His Word, certainly at the time I knew them.

I disagree with their changes and am not an adherent of their views. My own views would be comparable to those of Palmer Robertson in his book, The Final Word. I believe the new revelation issue is far more critical than the tongues issue and Palmer does a very good job in his analysis of continued revelation.

I also am a student of Historical Theology and do not see any merit in the argument that these phenomena have consistently been present in the church or that ocurrances of this phenomena historically is linked with sound doctrine.

I think the focus should be on preaching and teaching the word and that the evidence of the Holy Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit exhibited in one's life.

Sound doctrine and holy living are the issue. And I think Sam and Jackie would agree on this.

====

I also believe that Satan can use both intellectual rationalism and emotional sensationalism to get us off balance and engender pride.

 

[AndOne]

Thank you for your thoughts... I agree as well!

 

[GrinningDwarf]

Therefore to believe that supernatural spiritual gifts are for today does not go against believing that the word of God is complete and that no new doctrine will be added to the word. If sola scriptura means that God only speaks through the word and in no other way today then I would disagree with that; I believe that many christians from outside Pentecostal or charismatic circles believe God speaks in many ways, but always in conformity with the word. but if sola scriptura means that there is no new doctrine outside the word itself then I would agree.

I think you're accurate in your assesment of the Reformed view of sola Scriptura with your first and last points here. It means scripture is the yardstick that we judge everything by. I've only been 'Reformed' for a few years, and I come from a charismatic background, so I'm still studying this stuff out myself, but for the life of me I cannot find any justification for the charge that belief in the spiritual gifts violates sola scriptura. The only case for it sems to be a straw man construction..."this is what I say charismatics teach about spiritual gifts, and this violates sola scriptura, therefore charismatics violate sola scriptura."

In fact, I posted above (post #12) an incident at a non-charismatic church we attended where a word of knowledge was key to uncovering a sin in a church elder's life. Notice, this was a non-charismatic church!! The folks there would not have called it a word of knowledge, but that is in fact what it was. My question for those who think spiritual gifts like word of knowledge violate sola scriptura was to demonstrate how this does, in fact, violate sola scriptura...and they never replied!

 

[drstevej]

In fact, I posted above (post #12) an incident at a non-charismatic church we attended where a word of knowledge was key to uncovering a sin in a church elder's life.

Is it possible for someone to make such an accusation and it be false?

What happens if an accusation is made and the elder and others deny it? Kind of a "gifted said-he said" situation? Who is to be believed? What is to be done?

In the OT a false prophet was stoned for speaking presumptuously in the name of the Lord (Dt 18).

Where the emphasis goes away from Scripture to subjective declarations of the gifted there is clear opportunity for abuse and manipulation. What I called, when I was a Singles Pastor, the "God told me you are to be my wife" proposition.

The word of knowledge is impressive when it is right, but when it is wrong or unverifyable you can have some real problems.

I believe God can and does heal and that God can and does work miracles. No question in my mind. It is the guarantee of them, the formulas to produce them and those claiming the office to dispense them that I seriously question.

For every sincere practitioner there are a flock of opportunists.

===

Bob Tilton -- true story:

I received literature form Bob Tilton's ministry asking for a gift of faith (in three installments) and a prayer request.

I filled out the pledge and wrote down my request:

Request: That Bob Tilton would be delivered from the demon of gimmicry.
Pledge: $0.00

I encluded $0.00 (1/3 of the total) and sent it in. I received a letter in two weeks thanking me for my gift and telling me that Bob is urgently praying for my request and providing me a envoelope for payment #2.

I sent a xerox copy of the original pledge and a letter to Bob's church street addressed in a regular envelope addressed to Bob Tilton (Personal and Confidential). The letter asked him how he could explain the sending of the second envelope if he was sincerely praying for my request. I told him I was a fellow pastor in town and as such urged him not to bring such reproach on the cause of Christ. I included a phone number in case he had questions or comments.

I never heard from him.

My guess is the problem was probably mine for not sending in payment #2 & #3 of $0.00 to him. Had I done so maybe the demon would be gone. Musta been my lack of faith.

 

[rnmomof7]

I came from a Full Gospel church to a a "holiness" church to Calvinism.

I like the distinction made by the Holiness church that originally came out of the Charismatic movement.

They taught that all the gifts belong to God and not the one that uses them, they are gifts of need for the one being prayed for.

They rejected tongues completely but took seriously the laying on of hands and gifts like discernment and word of knowledge etc.

I am now a Bible Presbyterian, and as a calvinist I see God as sovereign over all things including the operation of spiritual gifts.

I do not hold to the cessation of all the gifts, but only that they are like all things under Gods absolute control.

My Presbyterian church has many that come from a "full gospel" background. You know us because we are the ones with our hands raised in worship during worship time

BTW both of our Pastors also were saved by Charismatic believers and they themselves were Charismatic for a time.

 

[leck]

Wow, that's a pretty close degree of separation, calling Jack Jackie and all. A unique sketch of the two, thanks for that. I'm sorry to hear of the miscarriages, but glad you found balance to your christian life.

What were they like in terms of character?

Jack Deere had a part to play in my journey to pentecostal christianity, though he may not realise it. I was in a real bind with being hurt by a fellow church member at the time in Hong Kong. As it happened someone else invited me to this conference and there in the midst of a local Assemblies of God church was Jack Deere. He spoke very clearly and succintly about spiritual gifts. Afterwards I approached him as did not a few people and I told him about my struggles, i could barely speak due to the pain emotionally. He directly but not unlovingly asked me, "have you forgiven her?" and I replied that I was trying. He prayed with me, then asked me to come back the next day for the talk then. The topic? Forgiveness.

The next night I heard the talk. Once again, his teaching was clear as a bell and I realised for the first time that forgiveness was about one's healing and so I prayed desperately as I was surrounded by very lively local HK worshippers. I chose to forgive, and asked God for the strength because I had none left in me to.

The next day, I went to work and only as I went through my day did I realise that something had changed. It dawned on me that the burden had lifted and I was healed, that I was smiling and that my passion for the Lord had returned. Just the day before I was heavy, dry, and found it hard to have anything to do with reading the bible, praying, going to church and God because my pain occurred in the church.

Thanks to that turnaround I began to reexamine everything I had learnt and so began the journey to Pentecostal christianity. So I do owe Jack the thanks for his part and give the glory to God.

blessings,

I have met Jack and know some of his close friends. I am closer to Sam and consider him a dear friend. Sam is a man of impeccable character and believe Jack to be the same. Both are great men, crystal clear thinkers, deeply devoted to Christ, and worthy emmulation. They are both solidly rooted in the Word.

 

[ReformedCharismatic]

Having read "Convergence", I enjoyed the book, generally, although I believe it best to read the 2nd half of the book first if you're more from a reformed or cessationist position. It's not nearly as good as his book "A Beginner's Guide to Spiritual Gifts" or his as of yet unpublished essay on Tongues (forthcoming from "Always Reformed(ing)".
I suggest a much better book on related issue, Wayne Grudem's "The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and for Today."

blessings,

Shannon

 

[AndOne]

Shannon -

Thanks for the input - I forgot all about this post....

I have definately changed my tune on this issue (not because of this book in particular - however).

I can safely say that I am happily surfing the "Third Wave" now.

Dave

 

[cygnusx1]

I have been listening to John Piper's biographical lectures during the last two weeks. One was about Martyn Lloyd-Jones, the founder of Banner of Truth publishing house. He was a reformed person who did not believe in the cessation of gifts.

Notice that Banner of Truth does not carry his writings.

Oh yes they do JJB , they publish and stock a full set of commentaries on Romans and Ephesians , they just avoid some of his work.


http://solid-ground-books.com/books_banneroftruth.asp

 

[drstevej]

I have met Jack and know some of his close friends. I am closer to Sam and consider him a dear friend. Sam is a man of impeccable character and believe Jack to be the same. Both are great men, crystal clear thinkers, deeply devoted to Christ, and worthy emmulation. They are both solidly rooted in the Word.

Welcome to CF.

If you see Sam tell him his DTS Bookroom co-worker, Steve Johnson, said hi.

And ask him if he remembers me ordering 1000 DTS beer mugs (never sending it off but just putting the paper work in the pending orders file just to watch the DTS Book Room manager's reaction when he found it).

drstevej