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Controversial Issue: Lying

Is lying, in all cases, a sin?

  • Lying is always a sin.

  • Lying can be a sin, but in certain circumstances it is not.

  • Lying is not a sin.


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brentsbaby612

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When, because of his withholding the *whole truth,* Sarai was taken into the king's household to become one of his wives, the half truth bacame a lie.

Truth is like that - it is one of those things that is 100% or 0 - like pregnancy and death - you can be "just a little"

A half truth is a whole lie.

Yes, I agree that's why I said it was still deceitful. I was typing my thoughts. Probably a dumb thing to do. So see... There is no gray!^_^
 
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Henaynei

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brentsbaby612 said:
Yes, I agree that's why I said it was still deceitful. I was typing my thoughts. Probably a dumb thing to do. So see... There is no gray!^_^
Very true - there is no gray as to WHAT constitutes a lie - there IS quite a spectrum concerning the fact that it is not ALWAYS sin to lie
 
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brentsbaby612

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simchat torah said:
Anywho... Rehab was specifically blessed for her act.

Where in Joshua does it say such a thing!! I assume you are talking about Rahab(KJV). It's been a while since I read the story of Jericho so I brushed up on it. G-d spared her and her family because she had faith. She says " I have heard how the L-rd dried up the water of the Red Sea for you , when ye came came out of Egypt". She had heard stories of the G-d of Israel and believed that He was going to give the city of Jericho to them. She said " I know that the L-rd hath given you the land,". This is what the bible states and what I believe to be true. So tell me, where's your proof. Certainly you wouldn't state something as so without the scripture to back it up. :scratch:

I wouldn't be surprized if after this Rahab turned from harlotry and lying ways.:D
 
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Henaynei

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I would like to send a warm Todah Rabah to all the participants of this thread!! While no one has yet to, and it doesn't seem likely that anyone will, change their minds on this topic - ALL posts have been presented in quietness and fellowship.

As both forum member and moderator - I just wanted to say - Todah!!!:clap:

b'Shalom
Henaynei
Moderator
Henny.jpg
 
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brentsbaby612

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I would like to send a warm Todah Rabah to all the participants of this thread!! While no one has yet to, and it doesn't seem likely that anyone will, change their minds on this topic - ALL posts have been presented in quietness and fellowship.

As both forum member and moderator - I just wanted to say - Todah!!!

Big Todah!!! This has been very enjoyable!:)

thanks zayit

I was at work yesterday and couldn't look that up.

That's ok yafet. :mad: I just stayed up to read the whole book of Joshua last night!
Just kidding!^_^ It was good for me!:) I needed to brush up on my battle of Jericho!
 
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brentsbaby612

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I believe that ST may be referring to James 2:25, Where it says that Rahab was justified by her works?

Ok, so we look up James 2:25. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works.
Just reading this I can see why you believe what you believe.
But...this is taken way out of context.((this is the part were you roll your eyes and become convinced that I'm a stubborn donkey that can not be convinced with squat^_^)but I have been proven wrong and I'm sure I will be again someday!:))

So.. if your still with me, you need to go back to the beginning of James chapter 2. If you do this you will read how James is talking about two things.
Faith and works, and judgeing people. Not about how certain things like lying are ok. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3. And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4. Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?


James goes on to say:" faith without works is dead". Remember how I was talking about how Rahab had great faith in G-d. Then we finally come to verse 24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. You have to show you have faith, saying that you do means nothing. Now it's research time!
First lets look up the word justified. Websters defines it as this:1. To show to be just . Lets look up just: 2. righteous; upright [a just man].
Now many would say" A harlot! Righteous! Never!" and that is exactly what James is wrighting about.
But it says justified by works. What "works" is he speaking of. You have assumed it was when she lied. Yet it says right below what works he speaks Verse 25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had recieved the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Them being in italics in KJV meaning not the messengers, but the spys. So when she recieved the message that the king was looking for these men, because of her faith in G-d she sent them out another way. Another way meaning scaling down the wall. Now if it had said Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by her works. and when she had recieved the messengers, and decieved them? Then you might have a point with this verse.

It's very important not to just take one verse and interpret it. You have to read the whole chapter to get the context right.
 
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brentsbaby612

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What "works" is he speaking of. You have assumed it was when she lied. Yet it says right below what works he speaks of. :when she had recieved the messengers, and had sent them out another way? Them being in italics in KJV meaning not the messengers, but the spys. So when she recieved the message that the king was looking for these men, because of her faith in G-d she sent them out another way. Another way meaning scaling down the wall. Now if it had said:[color=dark red]Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by her works.[/color] and :[color=dark red]when she had recieved the messengers, and decieved them?[/color] Then you might have a point with this verse.

I already covered it!:)
 
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P_G

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Yes I get it!
Rahab was not actually justified by her works but the faith she had behind those works. She knew the G-d of Isreal was real and powerful.

So in reality it was her faith that caused the blessing not the incedental lie that she told.

A fine work on your part

Come on up to PA you may teach at NC!


Blessings

PG :wave:
 
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Sephania

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But wasnt' the whole point of that scripture reference in James that faith without works is dead?


PG you may enjoy reading this http://www.torahbytes.org/63-30.htm



Also I know this isn't black or white but Rahab's untruth is to lying as killing is to murder. Do you see a distinction there or not?

Rahabs blessing would not have come without her faith and her faith would have meant nothing if not for her works which only would have saved these men if she lied.
 
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brentsbaby612

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Rahab wasn't justififed in lying! That's not what James is saying. If you just read James 2:25 alone, it looks like he IS saying that. But what I'm saying is that if you read the whole chapter he is saying that Rahab proved her faith!
And that just because she is a harlot, doesn't mean that she can't have great faith in G-d. Before this verse he writes about Abraham proveing his faith by putting Issac on the alter. This whole chapter speaks nothing of lying. Justified does not mean justified by lying. It's not in that context. It's justified as in proveing to be just, as in a just person. Now do you see it?!
 
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