Controversial Issue: Lying

[The Thadman]

I wasn't meaning it as much as a concrete thing as I was an analogy. The logic being: if it is permissible to trangress the Torah to save a life, then is it not also possible to lie to save a life. I misspoke in my first post and I apologize for that.[

Did I make myself more clear Steve-o, or did I make it worse?

Ok, I think I understand now

Provided that it is possible to transgress Torah to save a life, then it would be (by logical conclusion) possible to lie to save a life?

Did I get what you were saying? I want to be sure before I respond.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[muffler dragon]

You are correct sir.

 

[Henaynei]

After some degree of thought and prayer

I am sticking with my words it is a sin to lie.

Y'shua remained silent rather than lie

I can see the noble arguments

But at some point maybe one makes a stand for righetousness
rather than make an excuse.

Shall I deny Christ to save my life? My families? Yours?
At what point do I draw the line?


Blessings

PG

you'll be happy to know that 5000 years of judaism has thought of that problem too

Lying to save a life, as long as it does not knowingly cost another life (unless that life is willing surrendering itself to save another) AND it does not deny the Creator - it not only permitted, it is recognized as a mitzvah.

Yeshua did not stay silent to avoid lying - He *went there to suffer and die* - telling the truth was not going to make things any worse - LOL - what His silence DID do was get His accusers to state who He was out of their own mouths!!!

 

[The Thadman]

You are correct sir.

Excellent

Now just for my own clarification:

I feel that it would be Ok to lie to save a life, provided that lie is not transgressing Torah.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Henaynei]

Vayikra
19:11 "'Do not steal from, defraud or lie to each other.

Defination of the word "lie" - here it does NOT mean specificly "untruth"
Strong's Number: 08266
Original Word: ::rqX

Transliterated Word: Shaqar

Phonetic Spelling: shaw-kar' http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=8266h

Word Origin: a primitive root

Parts of Speech: Verb

Definition:

• to do or deal falsely, be false, trick, cheat

King James Word Usage - Total: 6
lie 3, deal falsely 2, fail 1
Occurances
Genesis 1

Leviticus 1

1 Samuel 1

Psalms 2

Isaiah 1

 

[simchat_torah]

Y'shua remained silent rather than lie

Yes, that was for the greater good.

As well, people like Schindler did what htey did for the greater good.

 

[simchat_torah]

Judaism teaches that life is the highest priority. Any mitzvot can be broken in order to preserve life.

 

[simchat_torah]

In other words, when I said "the greater good" I was implying that they were preserving life.

 

[P_G]

Judaism teaches that life is the highest priority. Any mitzvot can be broken in order to preserve life.

And there might be a place I would disagree with the learned Rabbi's on their inturpertation of the scriptures. Mostly in the light of what we see in the Brit.

You have a gun to your head. It's either bow down to Allah or death.
Do you worship a pagan god? Or do you die?

Is G-d concerned with our phyiscal life moreso than our eternal life? I beleive the Bible is pretty sucinct in this. The second death is the one you need to be concerned with not the second death.

Blessings

PG

 

[simchat_torah]

You have a gun to your head. It's either bow down to Allah or death.
Do you worship a pagan god? Or do you die?

This would deny you eternal life... thus, obviously life comes first.... so you don't bow.

Simple choice.

Next example?

 

[Talmidah]

To use an example recently used on another board...
Your wife is hiding from some men who want to rape and kill her. They storm into the house and demand that you tell them where she is. Would you tell them the truth?

 

[simchat_torah]

Again, let me stress the Torah does not give any direct mitzvah to not lie... other than before a Beit Din while testifying.

However, the Torah does give a direct command not to bow before a pagan deity.

We do have examples to live and learn from though. Not everything is black and white. Praying to HaShem was outlawed, yet Daniel still observed the 3 daily prayers.

Avraham lied and was blessed for it.

The examples go on and on. There doesn't seem to be a black and white rule of thumb set in stone. Yet christianity wants us to believe so.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Talmidah]

Again, let me stress the Torah does not give any direct mitzvah to not lie... other than before a Beit Din while testifying.

However, the Torah does give a direct command not to bow before a pagan deity.

We do have examples to live and learn from though. Not everything is black and white. Praying to HaShem was outlawed, yet Daniel still observed the 3 daily prayers.

Avraham lied and was blessed for it.

The examples go on and on. There doesn't seem to be a black and white rule of thumb set in stone. Yet christianity wants us to believe so.

shalom,
yafet

Exactly

 

[simchat_torah]

Your wife is hiding from some men who want to rape and kill her. They storm into the house and demand that you tell them where she is. Would you tell them the truth?

I'd probably be the first to admit it...

After their necks are broken and they are lying on the floor dead, I'd say, "she's in the basement".

Then again, I tend to get violent when someone threatens one whom I love.

 

[simchat_torah]

yeah, I'm a sinner

 

[Talmidah]

Very good solution...a way to save your wife AND tell the truth!

 

[simchat_torah]

haha...

Well, its a different story to say, "The government says you must bow before a deity or die..." I'd choose death. However, when I'm not being asked to lay my life down for the truth, but I'm being threatened, I believe I have a right to defend myself.

In that sense, I am not a pacifist.

 

[Talmidah]

Well, its a different story to say, "The government says you must bow before a deity or die..." I'd choose death. However, when I'm not being asked to lay my life down for the truth, but I'm being threatened, I believe I have a right to defend myself.

In complete agreement here. (will wonders never cease? Just kidding, I know we've agreed on other stuff as well LOL)

 

[blessed2]

My daughter is a very large girl. Growing up has been difficult for her as children can be very cruel and mean spirited and her self esteem very hurt and fragile.
She looks to me for validation....she cut her hair short and asked me how she looks. I tell her she is beautiful. I know her heart, she is my child and I love her. I know that isn't what she is talking about....not her heart of through the eye's of my love for her. In the actual it made her look larger. I lied.
How does G-d judge sin?
The motive off my heart was not to decieve, cheat or defame another nor for personal gain.
The motive of my heart was to preserve her heart and her fragile feelings.
How do I repent of that? I know that I will do it again.
Is lying a sin? I don't know how to answer the poll...yes, no, both?
I ask Him to judge my heart more than my actions, take into account whether I served love or served "self" and I ask for His mercy.

 

[simchat_torah]

Wife, "Do these pants make me look fat?"
Husband, "No honey... your fat makes you look fat."