Controversial Issue: Lying

[The Thadman]

The exceptions to that exception are the mitzvot prohibiting idolatry, murder, and adultery (or incest.)

"The whole house of Israel is commanded to sanctify God's great Name, for it says, "I will be sanctified in the midst of the Children of Israel ..." How? [is this mitzva fulfilled?] If an idolater forces a Jew to transgress one of the Torah's commandments under threat of death, he should transgress the commandment rather than be killed, for it says concerning the mitzvot, "that a man does them and lives by them ..." When does this apply? With regards to all mitzvot except for idolatry, adultery, and murder; but with regards to these three sins ... one should let oneself be killed rather than transgress ..." - Rambam

Although this is nice, this is a stretch at best. "That a man DOES them AND LIVES by them," seems to indicate never faltering, not some form of "well, I can break some of them to save my skin."

Are there any other verses in Torah that would help this position?

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Henaynei]

The exceptions to that exception are the mitzvot prohibiting idolatry, murder, and adultery (or incest.)

"The whole house of Israel is commanded to sanctify God's great Name, for it says, "I will be sanctified in the midst of the Children of Israel ..." How? [is this mitzva fulfilled?] If an idolater forces a Jew to transgress one of the Torah's commandments under threat of death, he should transgress the commandment rather than be killed, for it says concerning the mitzvot, "that a man does them and lives by them ..." When does this apply? With regards to all mitzvot except for idolatry, adultery, and murder; but with regards to these three sins ... one should let oneself be killed rather than transgress ..." - Rambam

Thanks Zayit - I knew of that halakah, but could not find it - good job!!

 

[Henaynei]

Although this is nice, this is a stretch at best. "That a man DOES them AND LIVES by them," seems to indicate never faltering, not some form of "well, I can break some of them to save my skin."

Are there any other verses in Torah that would help this position?

Peace!
-Steve-o

Yes, there are examples - the same ones I have quoted in this thread several times - Avraham's lying x2, Yitzkakh's lying x1, Rahab's lying x1 - etc.......

 

[simchat_torah]

The exceptions to that exception are the mitzvot prohibiting idolatry, murder, and adultery (or incest.)

Ahhh yes.

 

[The Thadman]

Yes, there are examples - the same ones I have quoted in this thread several times - Avraham's lying x2, Yitzkakh's lying x1, Rahab's lying x1 - etc.......

But their lying did not break any mitzwot. They did not give false testimony against their neighbor, unless I missed something.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[P_G]

Yes, there are examples - the same ones I have quoted in this thread several times - Avraham's lying x2, Yitzkakh's lying x1, Rahab's lying x1 - etc.......

This is becoming yet another classic MJ quagmire!
And we will probably end up agreeing to disagree
(Does that mean we are generally disagreeable?)

Moses was a murderer
he was blessed
Aaron was an idolitor
he was blessed
Abraham was an adulterer
he was blessed
David was both an adulterer and a murderer
He was blessed
Peter denied Christ
He was blessed
Thomas doubted the L-rd
He was blessed
Saul perscuted G-ds people
He was blessed


Is it ok to lie? No no it's not
Is G-d infinatly merciful? Why yes yes he is.
We we stumble? Yes we will.

To paraphrase a bit
You go be holy because I am Holy - I am going to show you how to do that, I expect you will stumble but I love you and I am going to help you.

What shall we say then? Becuase at some point it seems noble to lie we should lie? Becuase a biblical saint commited a sin it is ok to sin? G-d forbid!

Was what Corrie Ten Boom did a good thing? What about Arthur Shindler? How about Randy Weaver? I guess these are just things we will have to contemplate and make peace with G-d with. The trouble with sin - any sin is this the first one is difficult but it gets easier after time. IN fact at some point we get down right good at it.


Blessings

Pastor George
(Narrow minded, homophobic, right wing, intollerant simpleton - did I forget self righteous and arrogant?)

 

[Sephania]

I understand where you are coming from PG, but could you explain where this is true?

Abraham was an adulterer

 

[P_G]

I understand where you are coming from PG, but could you explain where this is true?

If you have sex with a woman that is not your wife what is that called?

Adultery

Did Abraham have sex with Hagar?

Yes

Was he married to her?

No

Was it adultery?

Yes

Sarah did not have the right to tell Abraham to sin
Just because 2 people decide to sin does not make it ok to sin.


Blessings

Pastor George

 

[Sephania]

That was an ancient custom, same thing happened with Leah and Rachel, were they adulterers too?

Also 1 And Abraham took another wife, and her name was Keturah.

Rashi identifies Keturah as Sarah handmaid Hagar, reasoning: She is called Keturah because her deeds were now as pleasing as the ketoret (the incense offered in the Holy Temple) .

 

[Sephania]

Sarai was not doing this to cause her husband to sin, she was doing this because in her limited human understanding she believed that the promise that the L-rD gave Abraham could not come true because she was old and barren, this was the only way she thought it could happen and did not want to be the cause of this promise not being able to be fulfilled. Yes it shows the limited understanding of a limitless most powerful G-d but it also allowed him to be able to supercede what she understood and did and show his power.

The custom is discribed in an obscure way here:

Genesis chapter 30 Rachel and Jacob.

 

[simchat_torah]

PG, you're missing one big difference here:

Moses was a murderer
he was blessed
Aaron was an idolitor
he was blessed
Abraham was an adulterer
he was blessed
David was both an adulterer and a murderer
He was blessed
Peter denied Christ
He was blessed
Thomas doubted the L-rd
He was blessed
Saul perscuted G-ds people
He was blessed

All of these people were not blessed because of their murdering, idolatry, etc...

However, the people that Henaynei mentioned were blessed for the lie they told. Rehab was blessed because she deceived. etc etc etc. The ones above that you mentioned had their greatest downfall because of the particular sin you pointed out. However, the ones Henaynei mentioned were blessed specifically because of the lie they told.

big difference.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Sephania]

Yes, we were talking about lying. Now if Henaynei is speaking of Abraham calling Sarai his sister that wasn't exactly a lie, and he did only share that part to save his life and most likely hers. But I still would not call him an adulter, just someone whose faith slipped a little, just as we all do. We are still dealing with that slip of faith today, I wonder how many see this lesson and learn from it?

 

[brentsbaby612]

Quote:
Originally Posted by: Zayit




I understand where you are coming from PG, but could you explain where this is true?



If you have sex with a woman that is not your wife what is that called?

Adultery

Did Abraham have sex with Hagar?

Yes

Was he married to her?

No

Was it adultery?

Yes

Sarah did not have the right to tell Abraham to sin
Just because 2 people decide to sin does not make it ok to sin.


Blessings

Pastor George

This is where I do not agree with you PG!

But I have all ready gone over, and over ,and over this on the polygamy thread.
http://www.christianforums.com/t107908
So why don't we take that discussion there.

But everything else you touched on I liked!

All of these people were not blessed because of their murdering, idolatry, etc...

However, the people that Henaynei mentioned were blessed for the lie they told. Rehab was blessed because she deceived. etc etc etc. The ones above that you mentioned had their greatest downfall because of the particular sin you pointed out. However, the ones Henaynei mentioned were blessed specifically because of the lie they told.

How about before anyone else claims this as true, Someone needs to offer scriptural evidence. Where does it say " and G-d blessed abraham for this", meaning his lie. You show me that and I'll agree. But until then you can't assume that that is what he was blessed for.

 

[brentsbaby612]

Yes, we were talking about lying. Now if Henaynei is speaking of Abraham calling Sarai his sister that wasn't exactly a lie, and he did only share that part to save his life and most likely hers.

That's Right!! Sarah was his half sister so he didn't lie. But it was deciteful and he didn't trust that G-d would protected him.

But I still would not call him an adulter, just someone whose faith slipped a little, just as we all do. We are still dealing with that slip of faith today, I wonder how many see this lesson and learn from it?

He didn't comment adultry because Haggar wasn't married. But he didn't trust that the L-rd would give him a son by Sarah. And that's what he did wrong.

 

[simchat_torah]

Quote:

All of these people were not blessed because of their murdering, idolatry, etc...

However, the people that Henaynei mentioned were blessed for the lie they told. Rehab was blessed because she deceived. etc etc etc. The ones above that you mentioned had their greatest downfall because of the particular sin you pointed out. However, the ones Henaynei mentioned were blessed specifically because of the lie they told.

How about before anyone else claims this as true, Someone needs to offer scriptural evidence. Where does it say " and G-d blessed abraham for this", meaning his lie. You show me that and I'll agree. But until then you can't assume that that is what he was blessed for.

Actually, I specifically mentioned Rehab

 

[brentsbaby612]

Verse?... Or was that already given?

I'd look for it myself but my son is begging me to rescue his pet bug!
Anybody have a screw driver?

 

[P_G]

BB

I would probably say we could have a discussion about polygamy if Abraham had married Hagar but he did NOT marry her. So she was not his wife. Sex with someone not your wife is adultery. Unless some one has a better definition that I don't know about.

Insofar as blessings are concerned... If Moses had not murdered the Egyptian he would not have fled. He would have continued to live in Egypt in the house of pharoh and died most likely a little known charechter in the middle east some place.

But he did murder and he did flee and he did feel the chastening rod of Ha'Shem and becomes probably second only to Y'shua the most important person in the Bible (that is my judgement and not meant to be a slap to your favorite bible person)

So did G-d use the sin of Moses to bless him? Similar the same the examples Henny gives. Was Rahab blessed, well she got to live sure and with her family and like that. She also watched the whole of her people slaughtered before her eyes and her whole way of life destroyed. Take it from a survivor of a disaster that can be a reall mixed blessing! There is not one day that goes by that I don't wonder why I was not killed in Tower 1. You live a lot of life feeling like it would have been better you dead than say a mother with young children home.

What I worry more than anything with discussions like this is will people use one example or another to slide into a more and more sinful and acepting of sin lifestyle. For me and Yafet is right I draw a very distinict black and white line with no shades of grey it makes it easier for my simple mind to comprehend that way.

I just don't see my self giving a sermon titled "The blessings of lying"


But I will bless you

Shabat Shalom yall

Pastor George

 

[Henaynei]

That's Right!! Sarah was his half sister so he didn't lie. But it was deciteful and he didn't trust that G-d would protected him.


He didn't comment adultry because Haggar wasn't married. But he didn't trust that the L-rd would give him a son by Sarah. And that's what he did wrong.

When, because of his withholding the *whole truth,* Sarai was taken into the king's household to become one of his wives, the half truth bacame a lie.

Truth is like that - it is one of those things that is 100% or 0 - like pregnancy and death - you can be "just a little"

A half truth is a whole lie.

 

[Henaynei]

I would probably say we could have a discussion about polygamy if Abraham had married Hagar but he did NOT marry her. So she was not his wife. Sex with someone not your wife is adultery. Unless some one has a better definition that I don't know about.

How do you know he did not marry her?? Where does it say he married Sarai?? There are NO specifications in scripture about what constitutes a "marriage" ceremony. Well, actually there is - since

1Cor 6:16 states: "Or do you not know that he who is joined to a harlot is one body with her? For 'the two,' He (HaShem/Torah) says, 'shall become one flesh.'"

Thus the ONLY scriptural "marriage ceremony" is consumation. Sooooo, Avraham WAS married to Hagar by biblical standards.

 

[simchat_torah]

Insofar as blessings are concerned... If Moses had not murdered the Egyptian he would not have fled. He would have continued to live in Egypt in the house of pharoh and died most likely a little known charechter in the middle east some place.

But he did murder and he did flee and he did feel the chastening rod of Ha'Shem and becomes probably second only to Y'shua the most important person in the Bible (that is my judgement and not meant to be a slap to your favorite bible person)

This is all nice conjecture, but no where does it explicitly state Moshe was blessed for this act. You know this is exogeisis and not isogesis

Anywho... Rehab was specifically blessed for her act.

I just don't see my self giving a sermon titled "The blessings of lying"

No one is arguing for that point. Instead, we are stating that at times it is acceptable. To make it a lifestyle makes one a Liar, something which we all agree is wrong. We have rehashed that a number of times here.

*sigh*

No one is endorsing a lifestyle of lying. We are, however, stating that it isn't always a sin to do so if it preserves life, etc.

Shalom and shalom,
yafet