Controversial Issue: Lying

[Talmidah]

Wife, "Do these pants make me look fat?"
Husband, "No honey... your fat makes you look fat."

 

[simchat_torah]

I didn't think that would go over very well... hmmm, maybe G-d does want husbands to lie after all?

 

[P_G]

Again, let me stress the Torah does not give any direct mitzvah to not lie... other than before a Beit Din while testifying.

However, the Torah does give a direct command not to bow before a pagan deity.

We do have examples to live and learn from though. Not everything is black and white. Praying to HaShem was outlawed, yet Daniel still observed the 3 daily prayers.

Avraham lied and was blessed for it.

The examples go on and on. There doesn't seem to be a black and white rule of thumb set in stone. Yet christianity wants us to believe so.

shalom,
yafet

I think one of the great messages of Y'shua was to stop manipulating what G-d said in his word to suit what we currently wanted. To read out of Torah rather than read into it.

Had the law been given when Avraham lied?
By your line of reasoning it would be today OK to have wives and concubines also.
Yet the law says no.

Did G-d change? No but he had not made us yet responsible for it.


afwiw Yafet please there are a lot of people that come visit this fora from the greater body of Christ. That last sentence really was a bit of a swipe. Personally it hurt me because that is my background. Broad generalities are probably not a great idea less we get caught in the same brush.


PG

 

[simchat_torah]

I think one of the great messages of Y'shua was to stop manipulating what G-d said in his word to suit what we currently wanted. To read out of Torah rather than read into it.

Ok, then where is the commandment in the Torah that discusses lying outside of the context of a Beit Din?

Had the law been given when Avraham lied?

Acutally, yes. But that's another story (ie: Noah knew which animals were clean and unclean, etc.)

By your line of reasoning it would be today OK to have wives and concubines also.
Yet the law says no.

Uhhh... no.... I never took something that was prohibited in the Torah and said it is ok. Besides, before the Torah was written down Adam was with Eve (thus an example was set) and HaShem stated inGenesis 2:23-24

The man said,
"This is now bone of my bones,
And flesh of my flesh;
She shall be called Woman,
Because she was taken out of Man,"
For this reason a man shall leave his father and his mother,
and be joined to his wife; and they shall become one flesh.

Notice the word wife is in the singular. There is no room for multiples. That was man's infringement upon the covenant of Marriage that HaShem established.

 

[simchat_torah]

afwiw Yafet please there are a lot of people that come visit this fora from the greater body of Christ. That last sentence really was a bit of a swipe. Personally it hurt me because that is my background.

uhhh... my background too you konow. It wasn't a "kick below the belt" so to speak. Simply put, christians see things black and white. Its rather humorous to me because christians will label Jews as "legalistic" when the Jewish philosophy is rather leniant. It is christian philosophy that sees things almost always as black and white.

That statement is not an insult, just a fact.

 

[blessed2]

I didn't think that would go over very well... hmmm, maybe G-d does want husbands to lie after all?

I hope any stranger who happens into this forum doesn't read the post and think that simchat_torah is mean spirited and a hurtful person. Simchat_torah is truely a loving and kind person....patient and giving.
Although the afore post stung my feelings a bit concerning my little girl, know that Simchat is ever beloved to me.

 

[simchat_torah]

Oh dear... I'm sorry Blessed2. Its just a little tease between my wife and I. You see, my wife is one of those women who is absolutely stunning, very very thin and attractive. Yet she always asks me "do I look fat in this?" I can't help but reply with that joke to her.

When I saw your post it only reminded me of the joke I tease my wife with.

To be honest, I've always been on the chunky side... and was teased about it as well. Quite harshly I might add. So while I do know what it is like to be on the receiving end of things, I can only laugh about it now that I'm grown up.

Of course I'd NEVER mock or make fun of a child who is heavier than the norm. never. I would only encourage the child to strive for the best and tell them how beautiful they are.

I guess what I'm saying is please don't be hurt by my comments, they were really somewhat of an inside joke between my wife and I.

shalom,
yafet

 

[The Thadman]

I think one of the great messages of Y'shua was to stop manipulating what G-d said in his word to suit what we currently wanted. To read out of Torah rather than read into it.

That was the point of starting this thread, as I feel that the mocern Christian culture's perspective on lying is something that has been held to an ideal that doesn't exist in the Bible, but is the wisdom of man.

Had the law been given when Avraham lied?

This doesn't just encompass Avraham, and clean and unclean animals were known.

By your line of reasoning it would be today OK to have wives and concubines also.
Yet the law says no.

Although this is for another thread altogether, there was never a prohibition on multiple wives or concubines on the average man. On the contrary, there are mitzwot that deal with having multiple wives and what is expected of a husband in that situation. Multiple wives in the Davidic era was seen as a blessing from God, as God gave David all of his wives, and said that he would have given him more only if he followed his commandments.

Did G-d change? No but he had not made us yet responsible for it.

Responsible for what, akhi?

PG

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[blessed2]

Oh dear... I'm sorry Blessed2

Simchat,
You know how dear you are to me.
While I always feel her hurt, I know how loving and kind you are and know you would never try to hurt others and I would never want anyone to get that impression.
You are always my kind and patient friend and mentor......have always made me feel welcome, patient to answer questions and help me find my way. You here are my family in faith and I am blessed for that.

 

[Henaynei]

You have a gun to your head. It's either bow down to Allah or death.
Do you worship a pagan god? Or do you die?

Is G-d concerned with our phyiscal life moreso than our eternal life? I beleive the Bible is pretty sucinct in this. The second death is the one you need to be concerned with not the second death.

Blessings

PG

These issues have been well investigated as the relate to circumstances and to scripture for nearly 5000 years - and as both The Thadman and I have mentioned, the rabbis state very clearly that the circumstance you posit the answer is "no" you do not in any way bow to the idol in any shape or form

 

[P_G]

uhhh... my background too you konow. It wasn't a "kick below the belt" so to speak. Simply put, christians see things black and white. Its rather humorous to me because christians will label Jews as "legalistic" when the Jewish philosophy is rather leniant. It is christian philosophy that sees things almost always as black and white.

That statement is not an insult, just a fact.

Oh Yafet I would be the VERY first one to tell you I am absolutely narrow minded and black and white. This old country preacher is just not bright enough to figure out where I am in those shades of grey.

Before I would speak a falsehood I would surely keep my mouth shut or reserve comment. But thats just me.

Psa 101:7 He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.

Pro 20:17 Bread of deceit is sweet to a man; but afterwards his mouth shall be filled with gravel.

Rev 21: 8. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."



Now I don't know how you inturpert Rev 21:8 but brother I am not going to join them in the lake of fire and brimstone if I can at all avoid it.


Blessings

Pastor George (the narrow minded black and white one)

 

[simchat_torah]

Does telling the Nazis lie to save a Jew make one a liar?

Does eating a piece of cake make one a glutton?

Does wearing Nike make one an idolator?


hmmm..... there go those shade of gray.

Now, if you can say yes to the first answer without reservation, then I will grant you that this verse applies.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Henaynei]

hmmm.... then I guess that Cory Ten Boom, Avraham, Yitzkakh, Rahab et al are also there - in the fiery lake of burning sulfur

OR is it those who "practice" (as in repeatedly do as a way of life) are those who travail there??

Surely no one here thinks this discussion is about excusing all forms and instances of lying??? But as surely as the Revelations passage is in scripture, so also are the passages in B'reshete where Avraham lied -twice - and G-d enriched him through it - and NEVER even mentioned to Avraham that it might be wrong, and in Sh'mot when Rahab lies - G-d blessed her and made her a fore-mother of Messiah - so....... a foremother of Messiah is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur??? AND Ester and Mordachai both lied - and G-d used them to save Israel AND enriched them........

It really doesn't work very well to take one scripture, no matter how emphatic it sounds, and create a theological stance on it without taking other scriptures on the subject into account.

 

[P_G]

Actually Henny I brought out 3 I would have thought that enough but ok trust me there are more lots and lots more.

Is there room for grace and repentance absolutely.
Am I the judge? Nope.

Would I have lied to save them people yes I would have and I would be wrong in the eyes of G-d for doing it. And I would no doubt be broken in my spirit over it.

Ultimately the way one leads their life will be judged by G-d and they must make the decisions that they make for we have free will. These are the decisions I make. No I don't lie when my wife asks me if she is fat. My answer is always
"Please don't ask me questions I cannot answer"

I am tired
I had to break the news regarding Bonnie to my son who is in an institution and I am afraid I may have used up all my graciousness doing that. I appologize if I am a bit terse.

Bless you all

Pastor George

 

[simchat_torah]

darnit Henaynei

hmmm.... then I guess that Cory Ten Boom, Avraham, Yitzkakh, Rahab et al are also there - in the fiery lake of burning sulfur

OR is it those who "practice" (as in repeatedly do as a way of life) are those who travail there??

Stealin my ideas again!

 

[brentsbaby612]

Ok..Lying is something I used to have a problem with, But now I try to always be truthful. No matter what. There is no excuse to lie. Especially to your spouse! If I'm mad and don't feel like talking, I just say "Lets talk about it later". And Abraham was never blessed for lying, G-d blessed him in spite of it. You ruin your credability when you lie. We are supposed to be examples of Yeshua. I agree with Pastor George,

Before I would speak a falsehood I would surely keep my mouth shut or reserve comment. But that's just me.

There are ways to get around things without lying.

And ALL liars take part in the lake of fire.

 

[Flavius]

Rev 21: 8. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."



Now I don't know how you inturpert Rev 21:8 but brother I am not going to join them in the lake of fire and brimstone if I can at all avoid it.


Blessings

Pastor George (the narrow minded black and white one)

Here's where Pastor George's bible differs from mine.

That scripture you just quoted ain't in my bible.
I whited over those kinda scriptures a long time ago cause it seems to me that I'm at least two of those things half the time,sometimes I go for 3.
The story of Job is about him talking to a few guys that were lying to themselves.

 

[Henaynei]

darnit Henaynei
Stealin my ideas again!

LOL - you just have to keep the crazy hours I do on the computer and you, too, can beat folks to the punch cuz' yer postin' when all decent intelligent folks are asleep!!!

 

[Henaynei]

I had to break the news regarding Bonnie to my son who is in an institution and I am afraid I may have used up all my graciousness doing that. I appologize if I am a bit terse.

How is your son?? May G-d give him the grace and strength to handle this well, given his situation And may HaShem recharge your well with fresh and re-freshing waters in overflowing abundance!!!

When is the surgery?? is it scheduled yet?

 

[Sephania]

Judaism teaches that life is the highest priority. Any mitzvot can be broken in order to preserve life.

The exceptions to that exception are the mitzvot prohibiting idolatry, murder, and adultery (or incest.)

"The whole house of Israel is commanded to sanctify God's great Name, for it says, "I will be sanctified in the midst of the Children of Israel ..." How? [is this mitzva fulfilled?] If an idolater forces a Jew to transgress one of the Torah's commandments under threat of death, he should transgress the commandment rather than be killed, for it says concerning the mitzvot, "that a man does them and lives by them ..." When does this apply? With regards to all mitzvot except for idolatry, adultery, and murder; but with regards to these three sins ... one should let oneself be killed rather than transgress ..." - Rambam