Controversial Issue: Lying

[The Thadman]

Since this has been brough up in some other threads as of late I propose the following poll:

Is lying (in all circumstances) a sin?

The base texts I hope to study in this discussion are:

Exodus 20:16 & Deuteronomy 5:20
You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

Deuteronomy 19:15-21
15 One witness is not enough to convict a man accused of any crime or offense he may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.
16 If a malicious witness takes the stand to accuse a man of a crime, 17 the two men involved in the dispute must stand in the presence of the LORD before the priests and the judges who are in office at the time. 18 The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, 19 then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you. 20 The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. 21 Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

Proverbs 12:17
A truthful witness gives honest testimony, but a false witness tells lies.

Proverbs 25:18
Like a club or a sword or a sharp arrow is the man who gives false testimony against his neighbor.

Isaiah 29:21
Those who with a word make a man out to be guilty, who ensnare the defender in court and with false testimony deprive the innocent of justice.

Matthew 15:19
For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Mark 10:19
You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother.'

Luke 18:20
You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Henaynei]

Those references are each about giving testimony against another person. And doing such is definitely wrong - scripture says so.

BUT just because false testimony against your neighbor is lying (and sin) does not mean that all lying is giving false testimony against your neighbor. Some lying is giving false testimony in favor of your neighbor.

Avraham lied, twice, to save life (his) and both times he was rewarded richly and never admonished by HaShem, Yitzkakh did the same, and he, too, was rewarded. Rehab lied and it saved the life of her family. And on it goes. Many in the Holocaust lied to save lives - were they honoring or dis-honoring G-d's truths?

Scripture NEVER says (all) lying is sin, only certain types of lying. Just as it does not say that all sexual relationships are sin, or all bugs are treif etc.... only certain types are forbidden.

 

[Henaynei]

Momma taught me that something is either 100% the truth or 100% a lie - no 1/2 truths or lies...... and for a child, this is a good standard. But then we grow up and embarass our parents by telling 100% truth about Aunt Edna's new hair color....... and we begin to learn about the necessity of 1/2 truths, i.e. tact and "white lies."

In a marriage: you have been angered or hurt by something your spouse thoughtlessly did - and it changes your demenor - your spouse notices and says "something wrong dear??" Now, you know that 1) if you talk about it right now your feelings will likely dictate your wordage and tone of voice, and would lead to an argument, 2) you also know if you say "I don't want to talk about it right now", that could also lead to an argument - in neither case will the issue itself be dealt with. (Yes, I know that some of you have sterling relationships where this would never be true, but for the moment please allow grace for the rest of us humans ) So, instead you lie as best you can and say, "nothing honey." This allows the other spouse grace and "face" to back away in befuddlement but not anger until "the right time and attitude" are in place for a productive discussion on the matter. Was this lie wrong??

 

[Sephania]

But one must argue the fruits of lies:

Pain
Mistrust
loss
injustice
Death
The covering of sins which lead to more
Pain
Mistrust
loss
injustice
Death..........etc

When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44).

 

[Henaynei]

But one must argue the fruits of lies:

Pain
Mistrust
loss
injustice
Death
The covering of sins which lead to more
Pain
Mistrust
loss
injustice
Death..........etc

When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (John 8:44).

That is not, arguably, the fruit of all lies. Certainly lies to cover your sin, or by which you profit, or injure another, yes...... But mighty men of G-d both past and present, lied (for cause) and were rewarded by HaShem.

 

[Henaynei]

Avraham
Yitzkakh
Yosef
Jokhanan - David's friend
Rahab
..............
Corrie Ten Boom
and the thousands of righteous gentiles like her

 

[visionary]

End justifies the means?

 

[Sephania]

I guess I am speaking of lies that serve as underpants, IOW to cover your own butt. As well as anything spoken that denys G-d or causes another to do so or brings him down from His throne.

To help or save another I understand to do the opposite no.

A lie should not cause harm nor diminish the L-RD in any way, how's that?

 

[Sephania]

Thadman in your poll you called it a sin, can you define this furthur?

 

[simchat_torah]

I absolutely agree with Henaynei.

The specific mitzvot listed are concerning lying before a Beit Din.

 

[The Thadman]

Thadman in your poll you called it a sin, can you define this furthur?

Then I suppose we'd have to start a new thread as to "What is sin?"

For the sake of this argument, however, let's define sin as "breaking the commands of God" (unless someone else thinks another definition is more appropriate for the scope of this discussion?).

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[Sephania]

That's what I thought, just wanted to be sure before voting.

 

[The Thadman]

The specific mitzvot listed are concerning lying before a Beit Din.

This is what I personally feel, too.

I feel that if someone were to take hostages, for example, that it is not a sin to promise them all sorts of **** just to get them to let the hostages go.

Schindler saved almost 1000 Jews during the Holocaust, but not by honest means.

Many hostages are saved by negotations made with their captors which never go through (and under the Torah, kidnapping is punishable by death).

God, being the most intelligent being to exist, was very careful with how he worded his commandments to Moses.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[P_G]

After some degree of thought and prayer

I am sticking with my words it is a sin to lie.

Y'shua remained silent rather than lie

I can see the noble arguments

But at some point maybe one makes a stand for righetousness
rather than make an excuse.

Shall I deny Christ to save my life? My families? Yours?
At what point do I draw the line?


Blessings

PG

 

[Sephania]

Yes, it helps to put into perspective as well the lying spirit in 1kings although it is a bit hard to understand the whole senario considering the L-RD is speaking evil here.

 

[muffler dragon]

Just as a side note: could this fall under the category as being able to 'transgress' part of the Torah if it happens to save a life?

Nathan

 

[The Thadman]

Just as a side note: could this fall under the category as being able to 'transgress' part of the Torah if it happens to save a life?

Nathan

I personally do not think so. The Torah -is- the path of life, ultimately, and there are many instances where the Torah commands death.

What parts are you thinking of particularly?

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[muffler dragon]

I wasn't meaning it as much as a concrete thing as I was an analogy. The logic being: if it is permissible to trangress the Torah to save a life, then is it not also possible to lie to save a life. I misspoke in my first post and I apologize for that.

In regards to PG, I understand completely where you are coming from. It feels as though I am pricking myself in the arm with hallucinogenic drugs to say that it might be okay to lie (especially if my two-year-old ever heard it). But I do have to say, it fits well with Rahab. That is one story that has always stuck out to me. Even more so than with Abraham.

Did I make myself more clear Steve-o, or did I make it worse?

Nathan

 

[Sephania]

Is this only for this time or everyday for us?

Luke 12:11 When they bring you before the synagogues, the rulers, and the authorities, do not worry about how you are to defend yourselves or what you are to say; /12/ for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that very hour what you ought to say."

 

[The Thadman]

After some degree of thought and prayer

I am sticking with my words it is a sin to lie.

Y'shua remained silent rather than lie

I can see the noble arguments

But at some point maybe one makes a stand for righetousness
rather than make an excuse.

Shall I deny Christ to save my life? My families? Yours?
At what point do I draw the line?


Blessings

PG

Well, as I see it, to denounce Yeshua` is to denounce the Torah, as he is the Torah embodied in his life and teaching. We are to follow the God's Word at all costs, no? With this in mind, the issue at hand (as I see it): "Is lying a sin?" is ultimately "What does the God's Word say about lying?" and what comes after is "How should we follow it?"

Peace!
-Steve-o