Controversial Abortion Thread

[Gwendolyn]

...Because every thread we have about abortion blows up into something crazy.

But in all seriousness, I follow the Ottawa Students for Life blog (or whatever it is called), and they made a post not long ago about raising awareness among women for the after-effects of abortion. It heavily focused on telling the women that they will likely become depressed, make bad choices of partners in the future, and have unhealthy romantic relationships as a result of having an abortion.

I know that those are the usual tactics, but what bothers me is that approach to addressing women who have had abortions or are seeking abortions covers only half the story. I know women who have had abortions, and they have healthy, happy relationships. They suffer no depression, they are working hard toward building the life they dreamed of, and they are happy with their boyfriends. They know themselves very well, they don't put on fronts, and they aren't running from guilt demons in the night. I know that this isn't what pro-life people want to hear, but this actually IS the reality. There ARE women out there who honestly feel that their decision to abort their child was the best one they could have made in their situation, and they feel no regret or grief over it.

My question is - how do you minister to them? Women in that situation won't respond to insistences that they must be harbouring some secret depression, because they just... aren't. They won't respond to insistences that they must have dysfunctional relationships, because they just don't. I'm sure you could tell them that you know them better than they know themselves, but if there isn't any depression, grief, or dysfunction in their lives... how do you reach them with the message of life?

I am being serious. Please don't tell me that you could convince them that they actually ARE depressed or feeling intense guilt when they aren't. Presently, I haven't encountered a pro-life group who was able to effectively minister to this percentage of women. They play the, "Well, you MUST be depressed, even if you don't fee it!" card. Or the, "Well, you MUST feel guilty, and maybe you're just repressing it!" card. Also, I'm sure that calling those women murderers wouldn't be effective in getting them to listen to you, either. I think it is ineffective for women who feel none of those things. I am wondering how you could approach such a difficult, heartbreaking reality (that there are women out there who feel no remorse for their abortion) and still try to encourage such women to consider the message of life.

Would you just use the same tactics that you use with pro-choicers in general? Focus on the "the fetus is a human person" issue? Try to help the pro-choicers understand that life is life at any stage?

I'm just feeling frustrated and I would like some words of wisdom.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

. I am wondering how you could approach such a difficult, heartbreaking reality (that there are women out there who feel no remorse for their abortion) and still try to encourage such women to consider the message of life.

Would you just use the same tactics that you use with pro-choicers in general? Focus on the "the fetus is a human person" issue? Try to help the pro-choicers understand that life is life at any stage?

Well,

How about we start by making life the message ?


Look, Consider this message:

You shouldn't have abortions because:

1) You'll get breast cancer
2) You'll fall for men who will beat you
3) Your teeth will fall out
4) {Make up you own horrible thing here}

I've never seen any of this stuff objectively proven and I'm convinced most of it was made up.

Very pro-lifey.

You know I've seen people do "ministry" at clinics. They will tell a poor, unemployed, overworked, underage, whatever women ANYTHING to get them to not go into the clinic.

And then tell them how wonderful they are and give them a teddy bear and 24 Pampers.

Yeah

That'll help

You want to win this fight using a "pro-life" message, then have a pro-life attitude and a pro-life plan and come up with some pro-life resources and support.

18 years worth of resources and support. OR

Be prepared to lose the argument, your integrity and the war.


(Did you just hear that soft, tinny clank ? That was the sound of the pin being pulled from the grenade - sorry about that but the truth is what it is)

 

[Starlightsobright]

This is always an emotional and difficult topic. If a woman has aborted her child and does not feel remorse it is sad but you are not going to change that with anything you say. It is like all sins once the Holy Spirit shows us the error of our ways we go to Confession. We need to pray that these women are given the grace to feel remorse. I work with at least 100 women everyday and we have never discussed abortion ever.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Well,

How about we start by making life the message ?


Look, Consider this message:

You shouldn't have abortions because:

1) You'll get breast cancer
2) You'll fall for men who will beat you
3) Your teeth will fall out
4) {Make up you own horrible thing here}

I've never seen any of this stuff objectively proven and I'm convinced most of it was made up.

Very pro-lifey.

You know I've seen people do "ministry" at clinics. They will tell a poor, unemployed, overworked, underage, whatever women ANYTHING to get them to not go into the clinic.

And then tell them how wonderful they are and give them a teddy bear and 24 Pampers.

Yeah

That'll help

You want to win this fight using a "pro-life" message, then have a pro-life attitude and a pro-life plan and come up with some pro-life resources and support.

18 years worth of resources and support. OR

Be prepared to lose the argument, your integrity and the war.


(Did you just hear that soft, tinny clank ? That was the sound of the pin being pulled from the grenade - sorry about that but the truth is what it is)

At the Charismatic services, Sister Mariam would make a speech and tell the Church exactly what she needed to assist the young girls who they helped save their children. If it was beds, she got beds, if it was pampers, she got pampers. Parishioners let these young girls live with them, providing food and shelter; as well education was encouraged.

These are the tangible things that are needed.

"But I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child - a direct killing of the innocent child - murder by the mother herself. And if we accept that a mother can kill even her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another? How do we persuade a woman not to have an abortion? As always, we must persuade her with love, and we remind ourselves that love means to be willing to give until it hurts. Jesus gave even his life to love us. So the mother who is thinking of abortion, should be helped to love - that is, to give until it hurts her plans, or her free time, to respect the life of her child. The father of that child, whoever he is, must also give until it hurts. By abortion, the mother does not learn to love, but kills even her own child to solve her problems. And by abortion, the father is told that he does not have to take any responsibility at all for the child he has brought into the world. That father is likely to put other women into the same trouble. So abortion just leads to more abortion. Any country that accepts abortion is not teaching the people to love, but to use any violence to get what they want. That is why the greatest destroyer of love and peace is abortion. "

Mother Teresa

 

[FullyMT]

It would be very difficult to minister to someone without an open mind on why abortion is an intrinsically grave action. Evangelizing such a person would have to be based on building a relationship and allowing that person time to develop their relationship with God with prayer that she would realize the gravity of her action.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I wish I knew.. the only idea I could come up with, is to help them to see what the abortion actually is, that an unborn child is actually a living human being, - to understand the reality of the situation so they will be able to regret it. Becuase of course, no one regrets something that they thought was a right choice. The whole perspective would need to change. I think it's way harder than for a woman who already regrets the abortion in some way.... but it's possible, I mean all things are possible with God and we need to pray. Perhaps if we really pray hard before talking to them, and after, - that will help them to respond to our words more. But in everything we say, it needs to be gentle.

 

[Gwendolyn]

Well,

How about we start by making life the message ?


Look, Consider this message:

You shouldn't have abortions because:

1) You'll get breast cancer
2) You'll fall for men who will beat you
3) Your teeth will fall out
4) {Make up you own horrible thing here}

I've never seen any of this stuff objectively proven and I'm convinced most of it was made up.

Very pro-lifey.

You know I've seen people do "ministry" at clinics. They will tell a poor, unemployed, overworked, underage, whatever women ANYTHING to get them to not go into the clinic.

And then tell them how wonderful they are and give them a teddy bear and 24 Pampers.

Yeah

That'll help

You want to win this fight using a "pro-life" message, then have a pro-life attitude and a pro-life plan and come up with some pro-life resources and support.

18 years worth of resources and support. OR

Be prepared to lose the argument, your integrity and the war.


(Did you just hear that soft, tinny clank ? That was the sound of the pin being pulled from the grenade - sorry about that but the truth is what it is)

Oh, Charlie. You always know just what to say.

I agree completely, but saying so in the past has, strangely enough, garnered accusations of being pro-abortion from my acquaintances. I don't understand how, but... who knows.

 

[Memento Mori]

You want to win this fight using a "pro-life" message, then have a pro-life attitude and a pro-life plan and come up with some pro-life resources and support.

18 years worth of resources and support. OR

Be prepared to lose the argument, your integrity and the war.


(Did you just hear that soft, tinny clank ? That was the sound of the pin being pulled from the grenade - sorry about that but the truth is what it is)

Does the lack of social safety nets make abortion less evil? It makes life a tougher choice for those who are struggling, but it's the only choice nonetheless. I am frustrated by the lack of pro-life support structures in the U.S., but it's unreasonable to say that the pro-life movement has no integrity because it can't finance the raising of millions of children. Abortion has to stop, and we have to provide support for low-income parents who choose life, but the former is not contingent on the immediate success of the latter.

 

[Incariol]

People are still going with the whole abortion-causes-depression thing? That's rather surprising. The link between abortion and negative mental health outcomes has been shown to be baseless for years now.

 

[Fantine]

There was a longitudinal study posted on OBOB once, taken in Finland or some other Scandinavian country in which abortion is widely accepted. The study showed that more women who had had abortions committed suicide or suffered from depression in the year after the abortion.

Some speculated that the hormonal drop is more precipitous in abortion than in miscarriage or live birth, because the natural cycle is suddenly interrupted.

Whatever the reason, there is at least one study in a society where abortion clinics aren't picketed, abortionists aren't murdered and threatened, and armchair critics don't drive women who have had abortions into hiding--and the study showed post-abortive psychological difficulties.

Personally, it seems to me as if women in crisis pregnancies choose to bear and raise they have problems, too--just different problems.

Life is like that sometimes--people are faced with challenges, and no matter how they choose to deal with them there are painful consequences.

That being said, I think that women appreciate honesty. Many of them became pregnant because their feelings were manipulated by some man. They need to feel capable and empowered. They don't need a bunch of women manipulating their feelings with half-truths and exaggerations---and I think that both sides do that...

They feel empowered when they have the time to reflect, free from the pressure of family, friends, boyfriend, and, yes, strangers who want to micromanage their actions.

You want a woman to change her mind about abortion? Respect her. Affirm her. Let her know that she is strong and capable and brave and courageous. She will be--if she can see herself through the prism of your positive affirmations.

 

[CruciFixed]

Poor and unemployed or unwed mothers......

unwed---is a choice. You choose to have sex when you darn well know you aren't married.
Poor---may not be a choice but at the very least is not the baby's fault you were having sex. Your choice not his/hers.
Unemployed= Guess you better look in the newspaper/ pick up a trade or skill or send your husband hunting for work.

None of this is excuse enough to end the life of one person just because you chose to do stupid or irresponsible stuff. -shrug- I had no job when I got pregnant=stupid. I sent hubby looking. He came up empty. I looked I have a job. I can afford more than 24 pampers.
No one has to have sex. Everyone should feel responsible to the life they helped create if they felt like having sex was a good idea "at the time" You feel like having sex you better feel like taking the consequence. Adoption can get a poor woman out of the responsibility out of raising a kid too.

There's no excuse. People just want to keep making excuses for the irresponsible to continue to act irresponsibly.

I work my BEHIND OFF all week long barely taking breaks. I guess you'd say I'm overworked. I wouldn't burn one of my kids with saline just because I was overwhelmed. I don't know. I don't see the logic in "Well my life is hard better end someone else's."

 

[Incariol]

No one has to have sex. Everyone should feel responsible to the life they helped create if they felt like having sex was a good idea "at the time" You feel like having sex you better feel like taking the consequence. Adoption can get a poor woman out of the responsibility out of raising a kid too.

*tilts head*

I suppose this might be extreme, but rape victims and sex workers definitely don't have a choice, and even in some parts of the USA, there are pastors who will tell women it is their duty to "submit" to their husband, or they are sinning.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

*tilts head*

I suppose this might be extreme, but rape victims and sex workers definitely don't have a choice, and even in some parts of the USA, there are pastors who will tell women it is their duty to "submit" to their husband, or they are sinning.

Sex workers don't have a choice ? Lets see, work at Walmart or have sex with creepy strangers for small change. Which would you choose ?

 

[Incariol]

Sex workers don't have a choice ? Lets see, work at Walmart or have sex with creepy strangers for small change. Which would you choose ?

Assuming I was a sex worker, I'd probably be terrified of criminal prosecution and being beaten and/or killed by my pimp. You can't seriously believe it is a choice for the vast majority of them, that's just flat-out ridiculous.

So no, most sex workers don't have a choice. The idea is flat-out hysterical, to be honest.

 

[Starlightsobright]

I believe God always provides us with the grace to overcome situations. I think people want too many material things and comforts now, even though the economy is bad. When I had my first child I did not have my own home or a car. I was married and then had 3 children under 3 years of age with no diploma or qualification. I had only completed my first year of university. I had to complete another 3 years full time to complete my course. By the middle of 1995 I had my qualification and a partime job which allowed me to purchase my first car. We had to put off having our own home and lived with my parents. We were blessed with our fourth Miracle baby in 1999 and I now work. If I was worried about having "things" when I was 19 I would not have my beautiful 4 children now.

 

[Assisi]

I don't think providing help for young, unwed or poor women is going to help tbh. We have very good welfare for exactly this situation and the abortion rate is still high. The majority of women who have abortions are middle class, married, in their thirties, and already have children. I have heard women say they would abort an accidental child because they wouldn't want to sacrifice their lifestyle.

As for someone who doesn't believe they have ended a life and feels no remorse or longing about what 'might have been', I think the best thing you could do is pray. Part of what makes abortion so evil is the barrier it places in a person's mind. Conforming to Christ always involves humility, but accepting Church teaching on abortion if you've had an abortion in the past means you have to be humble enough to admit to killing a person. I imagine that kind of admission would feel pretty repulsive.

With evangelisation don't start with abortion. There are lots of things which have to come first - recognition of the hollow nature of material things, desire for intrinsic good, then desire for Christ, then desire for right living, then desire for full truth. Telling someone who had an abortion that they killed a child skips all these steps, it becomes something they don't want to hear and will make them less receptive to the Gospel.

 

[Starlightsobright]

I don't think providing help for young, unwed or poor women is going to help tbh. We have very good welfare for exactly this situation and the abortion rate is still high. The majority of women who have abortions are middle class, married, in their thirties, and already have children. I have heard women say they would abort an accidental child because they wouldn't want to sacrifice their lifestyle.

As for someone who doesn't believe they have ended a life and feels no remorse or longing about what 'might have been', I think the best thing you could do is pray. Part of what makes abortion so evil is the barrier it places in a person's mind. Conforming to Christ always involves humility, but accepting Church teaching on abortion if you've had an abortion in the past means you have to be humble enough to admit to killing a person. I imagine that kind of admission would feel pretty repulsive.

With evangelisation don't start with abortion. There are lots of things which have to come first - recognition of the hollow nature of material things, desire for intrinsic good, then desire for Christ, then desire for right living, then desire for full truth. Telling someone who had an abortion that they killed a child skips all these steps, it becomes something they don't want to hear and will make them less receptive to the Gospel.

Beautifully written.

 

[MikeK]

...Because every thread we have about abortion blows up into something crazy.

But in all seriousness, I follow the Ottawa Students for Life blog (or whatever it is called), and they made a post not long ago about raising awareness among women for the after-effects of abortion. It heavily focused on telling the women that they will likely become depressed, make bad choices of partners in the future, and have unhealthy romantic relationships as a result of having an abortion.....

I think any anti-abortion argument that is based on anything other than "abortion is wrong because it is the intentional taking of a human life" detracts from the message we need to be focussed on.

We should not appeal to emotions. We should not be holding up signs with graphic pictures of aborted babies on them, we should not tell women that abortion causes depression and other nasties, we should not be talking feelings at all. Feelings simply don't matter. The morality of abortion would not change if aborted babies happened to be the prettiest babies and mothers who aborted their children all went on to lead rich, full happy lives. None of that matters. The only reason that abortion is wrong is because it is the taking of an innocent human being's life. When we hinge our arguments on anything but that, we fail.

 

[benedictaoo]

...Because every thread we have about abortion blows up into something crazy.

But in all seriousness, I follow the Ottawa Students for Life blog (or whatever it is called), and they made a post not long ago about raising awareness among women for the after-effects of abortion. It heavily focused on telling the women that they will likely become depressed, make bad choices of partners in the future, and have unhealthy romantic relationships as a result of having an abortion.

I know that those are the usual tactics, but what bothers me is that approach to addressing women who have had abortions or are seeking abortions covers only half the story. I know women who have had abortions, and they have healthy, happy relationships. They suffer no depression, they are working hard toward building the life they dreamed of, and they are happy with their boyfriends. They know themselves very well, they don't put on fronts, and they aren't running from guilt demons in the night. I know that this isn't what pro-life people want to hear, but this actually IS the reality. There ARE women out there who honestly feel that their decision to abort their child was the best one they could have made in their situation, and they feel no regret or grief over it.

My question is - how do you minister to them? Women in that situation won't respond to insistences that they must be harbouring some secret depression, because they just... aren't. They won't respond to insistences that they must have dysfunctional relationships, because they just don't. I'm sure you could tell them that you know them better than they know themselves, but if there isn't any depression, grief, or dysfunction in their lives... how do you reach them with the message of life?

I am being serious. Please don't tell me that you could convince them that they actually ARE depressed or feeling intense guilt when they aren't. Presently, I haven't encountered a pro-life group who was able to effectively minister to this percentage of women. They play the, "Well, you MUST be depressed, even if you don't fee it!" card. Or the, "Well, you MUST feel guilty, and maybe you're just repressing it!" card. Also, I'm sure that calling those women murderers wouldn't be effective in getting them to listen to you, either. I think it is ineffective for women who feel none of those things. I am wondering how you could approach such a difficult, heartbreaking reality (that there are women out there who feel no remorse for their abortion) and still try to encourage such women to consider the message of life.

Would you just use the same tactics that you use with pro-choicers in general? Focus on the "the fetus is a human person" issue? Try to help the pro-choicers understand that life is life at any stage?

I'm just feeling frustrated and I would like some words of wisdom.

I'm glad you brought this up Gwen... I have known a bunch of women who had abortions and I know one in particular who had 4 and one tube pregnancy where the baby couldn't be saved but I think she wasn't keeping it anyway, one of the aborted babies was 5 months in gestation... anyway, she is no more guilty that anyone else living in the world.

She looks at it like what ever and says "God forgives"... I know her well, she is a close family member.

One girl I knew only as a co worker briefly she and I found out we were pregnant at the same time, she had an abortion becuase she was seeing this guy and it wasn't serious and he didn't want her to have the baby. She ended up being fired from the job becuase I guess she did have issues about the abortion and she wasn't coming to work even after she was "healed."

I saw her 2 years later in a bar and she was drunk and the first thing she said to me was, "We were pregnant, you kept yours and I killed mine..." I didn't know what to say. I was shocked.

So I do believe some are guilty and some aren't and it depends on what kind of person you are.

The catch is, my family member was raised catholic by a catholic devote mother who went to Mass daily who took her kids to mass and the other chick, not so much so "teaching" children and ministering, i don't think it matters... I truly think it just depends on if you are a good person at heart or if you are a selfish jerk.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Cosmic Charlie]

Oh, Charlie. You always know just what to say.

I agree completely, but saying so in the past has, strangely enough, garnered accusations of being pro-abortion from my acquaintances. I don't understand how, but... who knows.

Me too. Its a burden I have learned to (partially) with. But its nice to know I don't suffer alone