Controversial Abortion Thread

[WarriorAngel]

WA, when absolute strangers have given you unwanted advice and told you how you should be running your life, have you ever once appreciated their interference?

I'm not talking theoretically. I'm asking about your personal experience.

My answer would be an unqualified "no."

I am actually, get this Fantine - a listener. Surprised?

I listen and then i analyze as someone talks to see how i should approach a subject. I find the most beneficial way to reach them.

This is why folks think i am good at sales. Which i really am not. I would rather mend broken wings and lift souls back up after they have fallen.

So if i broach a subject it is because i am confident i found the right path to do so.

Anyway - as for strangers - i have a sign on my forehead that says 'I am friendly, talk away to me.' or something. I dont know.

DO i resent it, heck no. Especially from my elders who have lived longer. I resent mean ppl. But ppl trying to help arent really being mean.

Now i can be too proud, it depends on my mood. So i cant say i never had resentment.. but like i said, variety of personalities - means a variety of methods.

None are perfect and life isnt a one size fits all.

If you dont believe i am a listener with my long winded posts i have a few witnesses in here who would tell you.
[And yah, if the floor is open i am preachy.]


Call me sometime Fantine.

 

[benedictaoo]

WA, that does not answer her question... its not about you listening well or them approaching you wanting advice.

Do YOU like it when a complete stranger comes up to you, getting all up in your business about "sins" you are committing/committed?

You didn't ask for their advice and you do not want it... I know you dislike it becuase you flipped out in another thread when it you thought stuff about your past choices was being brought up...

So... you know coming at a person when something might be a sore spot, they will get emotional, angry, shut down and not listen to a darn thing you say and they will retreat inwardly and lick their wounds becuase *we* have hurt them with our harsh words. and then they will get an attitude with you and stay resentful that you came at them... but you were only trying to save their soul.

You call it "tough love" and that your loving and just trying to save them from hell but I know for a fact when the shoe is on the other foot- you do not see it as love, only toughness.

and I know you feel you have to tell them they could go to hell or you won't be able to live with yourself if you don't say it... but this is not about YOU and what YOU need to be able to sleep at night.

We need to be able to see our own pride that is involved here with in pro life movement and admit that its not about US... its about really caring about these women and how bad their situation may be that they would choose this.

 

[mdancin4theLord]

My experience with Planned Parethood is non-existent. But one thing I know well is how I feel when absolute strangers try to give me advice on how I should be leading my life. I resent it. I hate it. If they are extremely intrusive, it even seems like a psychological violation, almost a rape.

I'm 60 now. When I was a teen and young adult my resentment of strangers trying to tell me how I should run my life was even stronger.

The resentment rises exponentially when the advice-giver is from a different generation, a different economic class, a different religious or ethnic group.

And if you are honest with yourself, you will most likely agree with me.

I don't dislike sidewalk counselors because they are trying to persuade women not to have abortions. I sincerely hope that these women's parents, significant others, friends, teachers, and others with whom they have developed a trusting relationship are trying to persuade them not to have abortions.

I dislike sidewalk counselors because very few people (if any) appreciate strangers telling them what to do with their lives, and, outside abortion clinics, the counselors are likely to have significant differences from the clientele. They are almost certainly older. Perhaps married. More financially comfortable. More religious.

I would be a terrible sidewalk counselor. Married for forty years. Three healthy children, now adults. Six figure income. Involved with church and community.

They would hate me because I am completely unaware of the problems they face as I blithely try to impose my solution on them. And they would be right to do so.

Do you understand why I am saying what I'm saying now?

I wish I could say I understand you and what you are saying...but quite frankly I dont. To be honest I find it sad...because you admit to being a Christian. And as a Christian I believe you have a duty to spread...(in fact God commands us to spread the Word....) the truth of Gods Word but to do it in love.

You know when I go to church it moves me and sometimes my hands go up in the air when I praise God. I did not grow up in a church where outward expression towards God was openly shown...not in the Presbyterian Church that I went too that is. Today my kids are in their late twenties and when they occasionally attend my church...they witness me do this. I will neve forget the first time......my daughters mouth hung open. LOL She thought it was terrible and was embarrassed. I asked her what the difference was between her going to a concert and waving hands in the air......sliding them side to side......for joy.....and what I was doing. She could not give an answer. I told her I put them in the air to reach out to God....to give Him the Glory....and when the music or the Spirit moves me...it just happens. I said if I embarrassed her not to come. They are used to it today.

What all this means is this. When I stand out and try to educate people....its like I have my hands in the air for God. I am standing and doing what I think Christ would want us to do. Jesus too was a sidewalk counselor. Do you think people came to Him? No......He went out to spread what he wanted spread. He was not bashfull when it came to the Good News. I look at it that way. I am doing my best to teach, educate people about fetal development. I find that most pregnant women don't even know when and what happens in the womb.
No one will ever make me feel guilty about standing on the Truth of Gods Word, not you or any other person. If you are content to sit at home or go to church and not do what I do......then fine. Some people just dont have the conviction to do stuff like that...and that is ok. However you are commanded by Christ.......to spread the news to the unsaved. You cant do this hiding behind walls in what you think is a comfortable space.

I will end with this. I plant seeds....God does the rest. I don't try to convince or tell someone what to do....I educate them about the options. I tell them what no PP will tell them. They can decide what to do. Abortion however is killing a living human being......that is fact....fact many just don't want to hear.

So sad that more Christians dont try to stand up for the unborn.

 

[mdancin4theLord]

WA, that does not answer her question... its not about you listening well or them approaching you wanting advice.

Do YOU like it when a complete stranger comes up to you, getting all up in your business about "sins" you are committing/committed?

You didn't ask for their advice and you do not want it... I know you dislike it becuase you flipped out in another thread when it you thought stuff about your past choices was being brought up...

So... you know coming at a person when something might be a sore spot, they will get emotional, angry, shut down and not listen to a darn thing you say and they will retreat inwardly and lick their wounds becuase *we* have hurt them with our harsh words. and then they will get an attitude with you and stay resentful that you came at them... but you were only trying to save their soul.

You call it "tough love" and that your loving and just trying to save them from hell but I know for a fact when the shoe is on the other foot- you do not see it as love, only toughness.

and I know you feel you have to tell them they could go to hell or you won't be able to live with yourself if you don't say it... but this is not about YOU and what YOU need to be able to sleep at night.

We need to be able to see our own pride that is involved here with in pro life movement and admit that its not about US... its about really caring about these women and how bad their situation may be that they would choose this.

We should care if we are Christians...that is why I do what I do. I could take up more hobbies that would be a lot less draining thats for sure. And yes pride is always an issue with everything we do.
Abortion is about us however.......all of us who love the Lord and also love the unborn. We should love God so much that we would want to counsel someone thinking of doing this. We should always do it in love...but we still are called to speak the truth. And I think we all for the most part can agree what abortion does. And what it does is not acceptable to God.
Whether or not someone is Christian does not matter. If they politely say to stop talking......then stop talking. Who knows however that what someone says...does not change an opinion, or a heart.

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

You are incorrect. The majority of abortions are by women who already have 1 or more children, not among casual sex without contraception.

Ok this makes no sense at all. I've tried and tried. But can't make sense of it. How does someone even get pregnant in THE FIRST PLACE if he uses contraception???

O.O

casual sex WITHOUT contraception LEADS to pregnancy!

-.-

The fact that they have already 1,2,10 children has no bearing whatsoever! Its casual sex - no contraception. yup even couples have casual sex!!!...

Contraception is used? - No pregnancy - No abortion.

These are the steps. Casual sex without contraception? - pregnancy! - abortion...

 

[Davidnic]

Ok this makes no sense at all. I've tried and tried. But can't make sense of it. How does someone even get pregnant in THE FIRST PLACE if he uses contraception???

Because contraception is not always effective and if you rely on it as the method to prevent conception then eventually as people have regular casual sex always relying on contraception they do get pregnant and since they view the pregnancy as a complication they were trying to avoid rather than the actual outcome of the act they find it easier to have an abortion.

54% of women having abortions are on or are using contraception the month they got pregnant; consistency of use varies. Only 8% of abortions are accounted for from women who have never used contraception at all or have no access to it.

These stats are all from the Pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute.

Contraception is not the solution. It deforms the sexual act making the child an accidental consequence that one can dispose of because they were not the intention.

Also, you can not promote contraceptive use in OBOB because that is against the teachings of the Church...so do not do it.

 

[WarriorAngel]

WA, that does not answer her question... its not about you listening well or them approaching you wanting advice.

Do YOU like it when a complete stranger comes up to you, getting all up in your business about "sins" you are committing/committed?

You didn't ask for their advice and you do not want it... I know you dislike it becuase you flipped out in another thread when it you thought stuff about your past choices was being brought up...

So... you know coming at a person when something might be a sore spot, they will get emotional, angry, shut down and not listen to a darn thing you say and they will retreat inwardly and lick their wounds becuase *we* have hurt them with our harsh words. and then they will get an attitude with you and stay resentful that you came at them... but you were only trying to save their soul.

You call it "tough love" and that your loving and just trying to save them from hell but I know for a fact when the shoe is on the other foot- you do not see it as love, only toughness.

and I know you feel you have to tell them they could go to hell or you won't be able to live with yourself if you don't say it... but this is not about YOU and what YOU need to be able to sleep at night.

We need to be able to see our own pride that is involved here with in pro life movement and admit that its not about US... its about really caring about these women and how bad their situation may be that they would choose this.

I listen to ppl and know that ppl are all different in what 'makes them tick'
So as i said - i repeat - not one type of message works for all.

Compassionate ears for some, messages of hope for others, a sign that speaks about hell... can all lead to someone of the group to change their heart.

AND I SAY again - life is not one size fits all.
Which Fantine is proposing.

So as various as personalities are, the messages and methods should vary too.

I'm not saying to jump on them and in their face... but have a friendly enough demenaor that they would approach you.

Have ppl with signs of every kind.

And prayer vigils seem to be most effective.

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

Because contraception is not always effective and if you rely on it as the method to prevent conception then eventually as people have regular casual sex always relying on contraception they do get pregnant and since they view the pregnancy as a complication they were trying to avoid rather than the actual outcome of the act they find it easier to have an abortion.

54% of women having abortions are on or are using contraception the month they got pregnant; consistency of use varies. Only 8% of abortions are accounted for from women who have never used contraception at all or have no access to it.

These stats are all from the Pro-abortion Guttmacher Institute.

Contraception is not the solution. It deforms the sexual act making the child an accidental consequence that one can dispose of because they were not the intention.

Also, you can not promote contraceptive use in OBOB because that is against the teachings of the Church...so do not do it.

What is abortion then? Its child murder at least contraception is before the sperm cell actually impregnates the egg and generates the embryonic cell-kid!. Ideology aint gonna prevent abortion. Real solutions. Not idealism. There's natural contraception which isn't against church rulings...

As an alternative to abortion? Contraception is the lesser of the 2 evils. No other realistic measures exists. So what is the alternative to abortion then? Preaching? Not working that's the point of the thread...

No sex? in an ideal world. Its not an ideal world.

What's left? What I am suggesting is for those who don't give a damn about abortion and hence contraception in the 1st place! I don't think catholics abort (if they do they aint or are hypocrites should not even write comments on this thread...)! This thread is not for OBOB then cos we OBOBs don't commit abortion...and no other thread should be discussed- all threads contain highly controversial and unorthodox stuff-that's why threads are started-[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] happens. Preaching, praying DOES NOT WORK. Otherwise there would be no thread!

Even divorce is against church rules but if a woman gets beaten well I'd advise her to leave instead of get beat!...

 

[Davidnic]

This is not up for debate. The Church, through the Magisterium teaches that contraception is not allowed and that requires assent. The Statement of Faith of OBOB does not allow posting that opposes Magisterial teaching.

Do not continue to promote it.

You can encourage NFP but not artificial contraception. If you are encouraging NFP specifically state that and say not ABC. You specifically promotes condom use. Stop it.

 

[AMDG]

Contraception simply isn't effective. Condoms give maybe 80% effectiveness and even the pill only gives maybe 97% effectiveness. That means that a child can be conceived. And if it is, what then? Using abortion as a contraceptive method? It's being done. In some countries it's even widespread.

How about being open to life and realizing that a child can be conceived (life can be created) from *every* sexual act. How about respecting sex instead of treating it as a diversion without any consequences?

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

People who abort are out of the church!...the whole purpose of this thread is to end abortion for people who do and don't care!!!.

Those who are outside the church do it. Who in OBOB would actually abort or use contraception? This IS FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T CATHOLICS!

COS CATHOLICS DO NOT DO THIS STUFF! NO CATHOLIC ABORTS NOR USES CONDOMS!

This thread is OBOBs discussing ways on how abortion can be stopped. NO ONE IN HERE HAS ABORTED. IF THEY HAVE THEY SHOULD NOT POST! AND AINT CATHOLIC cos the Magisterium is pretty clear like you have said...

Those who abort aren't catholic and don't care about the magisterium...that's why to tell them to use contraceptives is actually being charitable cos at least they aint aborting!

I hope I've made myself clear as to whom I think this thread is referring itself in the first place.

 

[Davidnic]

You are saying Contraception is an effective way to stop Abortion. The Church says it is not, Her decrees are not made to morally advise only Catholics, Truth is not tailored based on Church membership. It does not matter if you are advising it for Catholics or non-Catholics. The use of it...for anyone can not be promoted in OBOB. You can not promote contraception in any way, shape or form in OBOB.

This is not up for discussion.

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

Contraception simply isn't effective. Condoms give maybe 80% effectiveness and even the pill only gives maybe 97% effectiveness. That means that a child can be conceived. And if it is, what then? Using abortion as a contraceptive method? It's being done. In some countries it's even widespread.

How about being open to life and realizing that a child can be conceived (life can be created) from *every* sexual act. How about respecting sex instead of treating it as a diversion without any consequences?

Only???

I know abortion is being used as a contraceptive method. It is the extrema ratio of contraceptive methods for people who don't care.

those who abort aint open to life and aint gonna convert. I'm just giving them a real alternative.

If everyone were catholic there would be no point in this thread!

We are discussing ways for non-catholics to stop aborting.

1) conversion to catholicism
2) no conversion (more often than not)

This is for them 2s. I'm speaking of.

1) is a long process takes years and has a lower % prob. than those stated by you!

This is just stating a fact.

 

[Fantine]

COS CATHOLICS DO NOT DO THIS STUFF! NO CATHOLIC ABORTS NOR USES CONDOMS!

Those who abort aren't catholic and don't care about the magisterium...that's why to tell them to use contraceptives is actually better.

Although the morality of contraception is widely debated and almost universally ignored even among Catholics, the basis of the law is "natural law" and applicable to every religious group and nationality throughout history and in the future.

And so to tell non-Catholics that the natural law doesn't apply to them would negate the very foundation on which the law against contraception is based.

While I am not of the belief that contraception "causes" abortion--as a matter of fact I think it is absolute hooey--I also understand why it would be morally inconsistent for Catholics to tell other groups to use it.

Teens are notorious for using contraception inconsistently and incorrectly, and for not using the most effective means on contraception available. I know several teen mothers. All except one, following medical advice, got contraceptives that were virtually foolproof after delivery--IUD's, implants. None have gotten pregnant. One teen didn't, and now has three children and no husband at the age of 21.

Scientifically, economically, and logically, I believe that contraception prevents many more abortions than repealing Roe v. Wade would.
Religiously, I think that the official Church position about the unacceptability of contraception must be universally promulgated.

Even if it results in more abortions.

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

You are saying Contraception is an effective way to stop Abortion. The Church says it is not, Her decrees are not made to morally advise only Catholics, Truth is not tailored based on Church membership. It does not matter if you are advising it for Catholics or non-Catholics. The use of it...for anyone can not be promoted in OBOB. You can not promote contraception in any way, shape or form in OBOB.

This is not up for discussion.

fine I'll filter the flies and swallow the camels...

Her teachings are for catholics. Come on. Non-catholics don't care. they don't even know them!!!!!

The best way to stop abortion would be dying a virgin. The magisterium says Saints live that way..

May I ask what is a better realistic solution to abortion then?

I just gave my 2cents. On how to realistically cope with the problem.

Fine I'll conform and say: prayer, asceticism, conversion, novenas, rosary!

It aint working. and we know it. Otherwise the thread opener wouldn't have opened a thread like this...no point in posting in this thread anymore.

There will be no solution until we don't open up to what the world is outside if we want to change it and so doing at least make it less worse. Cos making it better off is utopia with em peeps outside!

Sorry for actually trying to find a solution to the problem. That works. Or might better.

 

[Nietzscheiswrong]

Although the morality of contraception is widely debated and almost universally ignored even among Catholics, the basis of the law is "natural law" and applicable to every religious group and nationality throughout history and in the future.

And so to tell non-Catholics that the natural law doesn't apply to them would negate the very foundation on which the law against contraception is based.

While I am not of the belief that contraception "causes" abortion--as a matter of fact I think it is absolute hooey--I also understand why it would be morally inconsistent for Catholics to tell other groups to use it.

Teens are notorious for using contraception inconsistently and incorrectly, and for not using the most effective means on contraception available. I know several teen mothers. All except one, following medical advice, got contraceptives that were virtually foolproof after delivery--IUD's, implants. None have gotten pregnant. One teen didn't, and now has three children and no husband at the age of 21.

Scientifically, economically, and logically, I believe that contraception prevents many more abortions than repealing Roe v. Wade would.
Religiously, I think that the official Church position about the unacceptability of contraception must be universally promulgated.

Even if it results in more abortions.

At this I just raise my hands and give up! Lord perform a miracle or flood us all for real this time!

 

[AMDG]

Sorry for actually trying to find a solution to the problem. That works. Or might better.

Being divisive (endorsing murder for any group, however small, or ignoring Natural Law or treating sex abysmally) is never a solution

 

[Fantine]

[/b]

At this I just raise my hands and give up! Lord perform a miracle or flood us all for real this time!

Just as undermining condom use probably results in more deaths from AIDS in Africa...even the much touted "ABC" program in Uganda doesn't forbid condom use--it just says that abstinence is the better solution.

I respect the Church for its moral consistency even though I think it results in more abortions and more deaths from AIDS.

What I don't respect are the ineffective efforts to try to absolve themselves by pretending that their stance doesn't result in greater loss of lives.

They're morally consistent--they're right to be--but they need to accept responsibility for the fact that their moral consistency has a catastrophic downside for millions of people, both born and unborn.

 

[Davidnic]

Thread Closed for staff review