Contradicting Teachings

[James_Lai]

Some question that logic applies in the spiritual in the same way that it applies in the natural. I believe it does. Everything about God and the spiritual makes perfect sense. The idea that spiritual truths are not logical is, I think, bogus. God and the things of God can be understood. All we lack is the knowledge and the vocabulary to describe them.

What are spiritual truths?

 

[coffee4u]

I fear but then I think what am I fearing? A better life in heaven? Foolish

Heaven is merely the waiting room. Life will take place on the new earth.

Revelation 21


A New Heaven and a New Earth
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

 

[James_Lai]

I don't see that as contradictory at all, but as complimentary.
The world probably is getting closer to ending, which means there is even more reason to preach the good news of Christ sacrificed.

In a cinema fire people are going to be rushing to that safe exit not sitting down and offering around their popcorn to each other.
If people feel the world has another 100,000 years to go they are more likely to be complacent and do nothing.
The most growth in Christianity does not happen in the west. -Because we are complacent.



No because that goes against the plain teaching of scripture. The longer the world goes on the more will drop away.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,

Matthew 24:10-13
And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

So on hearing someone say "The Christians one day comprising the 100% of the world’s population!' I would know immediately I was hearing false teaching and leave.



I disagree. It should drive us even more towards that small fire exit.



Not the same thing at all.



Must we?



I'll leave that to you to think on lol, I'm lucky if I can calculate my change.

Thank you!! Interesting.

Imminence/urgency plus prediction of failure (narrow gate) in real life results in inaction or even counter-productivity.

My opinion is that those verses are clearly historic, not prophetic. It already happened.

Maths, yes, I love it

 

[James_Lai]

Heaven is merely the waiting room. Life will take place on the new earth.

Revelation 21


A New Heaven and a New Earth
21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

If this is literal and in the future, then should we also expect literal horsemen, beasts and the great harlot appearing?

 

[IWalkAlone]

If this is literal and in the future, then should we also expect literal horsemen, beasts and the great harlot appearing?

If its not in the future then when is it and what is it?

 

[Silly Uncle Wayne]

Could contradicting teachings cancel each other out in minds of believers and cause lack of passion or idleness? Or worse, cause destructive, counter-productive actions?

For example, I was thinking about
- “love your neighbour and preach the good news to all corners of the world”
- “this world is ending, perhaps any day now. there will be very few saved, the gate is narrow”

You are positively motivated for action only to be told your efforts might be all in vain as total global destruction is imminent.

You’re pushed and pulled at the same time.

History has shown that those that have the greatest effect of preaching the gospel message are those who have seen the urgency due to the potential end of the age.

The maths was amusing but probably a negative idea to most

 

[dqhall]

Hello.
From another thread, I came up with a question…

Could contradicting teachings cancel each other out in minds of believers and cause lack of passion or idleness? Or worse, cause destructive, counter-productive actions?

For example, I was thinking about
- “love your neighbour and preach the good news to all corners of the world”
- “this world is ending, perhaps any day now. there will be very few saved, the gate is narrow”

You are positively motivated for action only to be told your efforts might be all in vain as total global destruction is imminent.

You’re pushed and pulled at the same time.

Since we know that our mind is way more susceptible to the negatives than the positives, fear has stronger grip on us than love, could it be that such contradicting teachings best to be avoided?

For example, would you write to all churches in the world the following? “Stop teaching the end of the world Right Now! Start teaching possibly a 100,000 year future ahead of us! Every human being eventually hearing the true gospel by our hard work! The Christians one day comprising the 100% of the world’s population!”

Well, that would get you going, what do you think? Not that there isn’t verses that you can base this updated teaching on.

Not “it’s all going to burn” and “no matter what you do, a narrow gate is all we’ll have”… Such ideas are like killing the drive.

It’s like hiring an employee and telling them, “You’ll earn $100k a year but the tax man is arresting our accounts next Friday”… Would you be all hyped up about the $100k income labouring like a bee or rather sit on your hands pretending to be working till your next and only weekly paycheck?

So if we say in math terms.

———————-

Given:

Idea 1 = I1
Idea 2 = I2
I1 and I2 are natural numbers
Human Action = A
A = I1 + I2
Positive idea: + Ix > 0
Negative idea - Ix < 0
Neutral idea Ix = 0
where x ∈ {1,2}

Possible outcomes for A:

1) I1 and I2 both positive

A = + I1 + I2 > 0

Positive human action, its value is greater than each individual idea

2) I1 and I2 both negative

A = - I1 - I2 < 0

Negative human action, its value is lesser than each individual idea

3) I1 is positive and I2 is negative

there are two possible sub-outcomes:

a) If I1 > I2, then

A = + I1 - I2 > 0

Positive human action, its value is lesser than the positive idea I1

b) If I1 < I2

A = + I1 - I2 < 0

Negative human action, its value is greater than the negative idea I2

If you think the world will end tomorrow, you might be tempted to take the day off. A little idleness, some more apathy, with negativity added to all that, might cause you to lose opportunities or not be aware of opportunity to succeed.

One who studies the Gospels and associated texts, understands them and does good works will not lose his reward. You might look for testimonies by successful Christians; reports of miracles and salvation. A Christian told me to seek a personal relationship with Christ.

 

[com7fy8]

Since we know that our mind is way more susceptible to the negatives than the positives, fear has stronger grip on us than love, could it be that such contradicting teachings best to be avoided?

When God gives us something to help us, He already knows there are people who will take it the wrong way . . . no matter how He states it.

You might not be able to control how people take something. How the person is has a lot to do with how he or she will take it.

I can see where someone might look at those two statements and say, "What's the use?"

I think this could be an example of what I am saying . . . of how one person might not be so predictable like you suppose, since each person is unique . . . to be discovered by getting to know someone so you know how to communicate with that one.

Developing set ways of words in order to control people might work to some extent, though; but I keep being amazed when I ask someone how he or she means or understands something, and I get answers I never would have expected.

 

[com7fy8]

- Mop the floor, Jimmy! Dog’s incoming in 10 minutes and it’s raining and muddy outside.
- Okay, dad.

When God tells someone to do something, it might not make sense; but God is able to use it for His purpose.

Think of how you enjoy the doggie, how God is blessing us with rain, how there is dirt which can get muddy and not a hard asphalt plateau extending for miles from you lolololololololol And did you say you can be lazy? Good exercise

Plus, you are now mopping all the floor; after doggie you won't want all those mudprints to dirty the water for doing the whole floor. You will only need to spot mop, with the rest of the floor already clean.

Or, when doggie arrives, you can stop him or her at the door and wash the dog's feet.

If God tells us to do something, He can make us creative - - - better than how we might be able to be practical.

 

[James_Lai]

If its not in the future then when is it and what is it?

I don’t know, but if the whole book is clearly symbolic and historic throughout, why is its ending suddenly literal and futuristic?

A 1500-mile city of gold flying down to earth from outer space. Its underside should perfectly reflect the earth’s surface underneath, like two Lego pieces.

 

[James_Lai]

History has shown that those that have the greatest effect of preaching the gospel message are those who have seen the urgency due to the potential end of the age.

The maths was amusing but probably a negative idea to most

If urgency is coupled with the belief that a small portion is getting saved, it effectively cancels out the command to preach to all people. Why even bother? An impossible task. Like Cinderella picking out peas and lentils before going to the ball.

So my point is I’m not taking a single teaching, but a set of teachings that are related and can potentially cancel each other out.

In this case, urgency with a prediction of a grand failure…

Yes, the love of maths

 

[James_Lai]

If you think the world will end tomorrow, you might be tempted to take the day off. A little idleness, some more apathy, with negativity added to all that, might cause you to lose opportunities or not be aware of opportunity to succeed.

Exactly my point

One who studies the Gospels and associated texts, understands them and does good works will not lose his reward. You might look for testimonies by successful Christians; reports of miracles and salvation. A Christian told me to seek a personal relationship with Christ.

True. The majority of people learn basic church teachings and go by them. If they have competing or contradicting ideas in the minds, the more definitive or more final one will win.

If we take another kind of Christian, studying the Bible carefully, thinking on spiritual matters deeply, then they could find a way to reconcile contradictions. They are a small minority I think.

 

[James_Lai]

When God gives us something to help us, He already knows there are people who will take it the wrong way . . . no matter how He states it.

You might not be able to control how people take something. How the person is has a lot to do with how he or she will take it.

I think this could be an example of what I am saying . . . of how one person might not be so predictable like you suppose, since each person is unique . . . to be discovered by getting to know someone so you know how to communicate with that one.

Developing set ways of words in order to control people might work to some extent, though; but I keep being amazed when I ask someone how he or she means or understands something, and I get answers I never would have expected.

Yes, God knows our limitations…

Very true, each mind is unique. When I was in Israel, they would jokingly say “two Jews, three opinions” I’d reply, one of them is holding to two opinions concurrently!

However, if we take many people who are from more or less a similar cultural background, then being human, there’s more similarity in how their minds operate that differences.

An Idea, if it’s simple enough, can have a clear meaning and convey a set of basic facts no matter in which particular way it’s presented and what filter each person has. If we suppose that 4% take it completely out of wack, we still get 96% who will understand it in a more or less similar way.

The single most powerful influence on our mind is our experience. That is the strongest teacher of Ideas in our mind.

An example would be wacky theories of communism that eventually get removed or greatly amended in communist countries simply because more and more people learn to understand it’s not how the world works.

In a similar way, the Western dogmatic democratism could be far from how the real political process works, and so people become disillusioned.

 

[timothyu]

However, if we take many people who are from more or less a similar cultural background, then being human, there’s more similarity in how their minds operate that differences.

Artificial intelligence Learns from it's surroundings.

 

[James_Lai]

Artificial intelligence Learns from it's surroundings.

The AI, neural networks… Pretty advanced math. With growing distributed processing power, improving algorithms, it could do “miracles” in near future, if humans don’t destroy the civilization with a WW3…

Learning from surroundings, Yes! It’s how we learn. Fall, hurt, avoid falling. Water, wet, get an umbrella. Preach the gospel? People reluctant to believe, short time and going to fail? Why bother…

 

[James_Lai]

When God tells someone to do something, it might not make sense; but God is able to use it for His purpose.

Think of how you enjoy the doggie, how God is blessing us with rain, how there is dirt which can get muddy and not a hard asphalt plateau extending for miles from you lolololololololol And did you say you can be lazy? Good exercise

Plus, you are now mopping all the floor; after doggie you won't want all those mudprints to dirty the water for doing the whole floor. You will only need to spot mop, with the rest of the floor already clean.

Or, when doggie arrives, you can stop him or her at the door and wash the dog's feet.

If God tells us to do something, He can make us creative - - - better than how we might be able to be practical.

I understand. True. I take the majority of people. Statistical approach. You can do all the described, and it’s great. But day after day, Jimmy after Tommy, dog after dog, we can see a cumulative action. Mopping, paw prints, dirty floor

My point is, after a while most kids would go, “Okay dad” and keep on playing Roblox

 

[Halbhh]

Thank you. I understand your clarification

Well, my point in the OP was simply to state opposites for motivation. Maybe fear/love aren’t the best. It’s more about why you do or don’t do something. In the most neutral, broad sense. You take a vaccine because you don’t want to get sick (fear) and also not to spread the virus to others (love).

Plus or minus. Loss or gain.

Otherwise, the direct opposite of love would be hate, and for fear would be courage.

“Fear” not in the sense of being scared, terrified, a strong emotion. More in the sense of “want to avoid or prevent smth from happening”, in a rational calm way.

Important side topic that comes to mind -- I did also once think that the opposite of love was hate, but that's not really correct, in that very often in life it's only if we care about someone can we get really angry or resentful when they don't treat us well.

(for a contrast, consider whether you'd really care for long if a random street person insults you with some words -- while you'd perhaps not take it personally in part because you know he/she is not in his/her right mind, you also can not care very much about the insult because he's a total stranger with whom you aren't even slightly relating before the insult -- it's like a traffic insult. A good example is a random person in traffic that honks at you wrongly: you don't really take it personally much so that you hate them a day later....see?)

For there to be hate, there has to be love underneath it, or connected, it seems.

The real opposite of love isn't really hate, which is anger basically, and that anger is because you care (feel love or a need for love) .... Instead the true opposite of love is indifference.

 

[James_Lai]

Important side topic that comes to mind -- I did also once think that the opposite of love was hate, but that's not really correct, in that very often in life it's only if we care about someone can we get really angry or resentful when they don't treat us well.

(for a contrast, consider whether you'd really care for long if a random street person insults you with some words -- while you'd perhaps not take it personally in part because you know he/she is not in his/her right mind, you also can not care very much about the insult because he's a total stranger with whom you aren't even slightly relating before the insult -- it's like a traffic insult. A good example is a random person in traffic that honks at you wrongly: you don't really take it personally much so that you hate them a day later....see?)

For there to be hate, there has to be love underneath it, or connected, it seems.

The real opposite of love isn't really hate, which is anger basically, and that anger is because you care (feel love or a need for love) .... Instead the true opposite of love is indifference.

I agree. In the moral sense, yes. Indifference is lack of any action. Hate motivates you for some destructive behaviour.

In Love, I see two ideas - unity, connectedness and sharing, giving. An exchange, for example, is two in one. In maths terms it’s addition. In a physical model, it’s moving towards each other.

Indifference is the opposite of both.

Hate does imply some connectedness, unity and maybe even sharing. So there’s love there somewhere, even if it’s very distorted to the point of being evil.

Going back to the OP though, I don’t really care about the exact mechanism. I consider simply

Input of Idea -> Resulting action

But as a side note, I do believe negative motivation is stronger than the positive on in the majority if cases . It doesn’t sound great. We see it our legal system. Where do you ever see rewards for good behaviour legislated in the society? Yes there’s science or cinematography prizes and military awards, but overall… Nobody gives you a prize for crossing the intersection on the green light. But try and run the red light… $200 if caught. It works.

 

[Halbhh]

I agree. In the moral sense, yes. Indifference is lack of any action. Hate motivates you for some destructive behaviour.

In Love, I see two ideas - unity, connectedness and sharing, giving. An exchange, for example, is two in one. In maths terms it’s addition. In a physical model, it’s moving towards each other.

Indifference is the opposite of both.

Hate does imply some connectedness, unity and maybe even sharing. So there’s love there somewhere, even if it’s very distorted to the point of being evil.

Going back to the OP though, I don’t really care about the exact mechanism. I consider simply

Input of Idea -> Resulting action

But as a side note, I do believe negative motivation is stronger than the positive on in the majority if cases . It doesn’t sound great. We see it our legal system. Where do you ever see rewards for good behaviour legislated in the society? Yes there’s science or cinematography prizes and military awards, but overall… Nobody gives you a prize for crossing the intersection on the green light. But try and run the red light… $200 if caught. It works.

One of the deeper and less obvious things we learn in the New Testament is that God will help us by correcting those he decides are able to make it -- to help them turn from wrong -- by letting or even helping to bring about sooner that they suffer.
Such as for instance to the consequences of their actions/wrong, or other such suffering, to help them come to themselves and repent (turn from the wrong). For instance, in the parable of the Prodigal Bible Gateway passage: Luke 15:11-32 - New International Version

So, a good love isn't indifferent to the wrongs a loved one does, but seeks to help them turn from those wrongs.

 

[miamited]

Hi @James Lai,

I don’t know, but if the whole book is clearly symbolic and historic throughout, why is its ending suddenly literal and futuristic?

Who said 'the whole book is clearly symbolic...' There are prophetic passages in which symbolism was used, such as living animals representing kingdoms. There are metaphorical passages such as God raising up Israel on wings of eagles. But that the whole book is so written, just isn't true.

The ending also uses symbolism and metaphor, but both in the ending and throughout the Scriptures, symbolism refers to a reality of life. The creatures that represented kingdoms were symbolistic, but it represents a reality that kingdoms would rise up for which those symbols refer to. It's not like, "Oh, it's all symbolistic and so it doesn't really mean anything." Similarly, in the end times writings there is a lot of symbolism, but those symbols, while we may not fully understand them as yet, will, for the believer who studies the Scriptures, be seen and understood as they unfold.

For example, the Left Behind series describes the end times as being a day in which all the believers will be raptured, but those who were left on the earth continue to live out the days of the great tribulation. I don't agree with that interpretation, but we won't really be able to say with any certainty who is right until that day comes and we live through the reality of what the Scriptures tell us is the future of things.

But don't be tempted to think that because the Scriptures use symbolism, what it is saying through the use of those symbols is not important and does not reflect a reality. However, for the most part, the old covenant and the new are historic to us. They tell and describe events upon the earth that the people of God have lived through since the beginning of this realm of God's creating. Probably about 10% of the entire Scriptures is prophetic, to us, but just as God has proven over and over again that what He foretells will come to pass...You can trust your life that the 10% will also be fulfilled just as God has told us it will.

God bless,
Ted