Contraception

[JacktheCatholic]

​

Okay.

But anything done, practice, implemented, employed - before, during or after - that is so one to purposely avoids pregnancy is "evil."

Got it.





.

Going to the dentist means there is no chance of becoming pregnant (at least my dentist). Is that contraception too?

This seems silly that we would equate daily events that are not sex as being contraceptive.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Pope Paul VI wrote this: "The Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth." The RCC will teach you a METHOD (means) to accomplish the contraception (END). No "sexless" marriage. Sex done contraceptively - TO CONTROL BIRTHS (ie, not have them).









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[patricius79]

And?? NFP allows Catholics to have abundant amounts of sex without the worry of conceiving. .

nfp is constantly encouraging people to ask whether they REALLY have serious reasons for not being more open to life at a given time.

how? sexual desire.

 

[bbbbbbb]

nfp is constantly encouraging people to ask whether they REALLY have serious reasons for not being more open to life at a given time.

how? sexual desire.

Please note that I wrote that NFP allows Catholic couples to have sex without the probability of conception. I did not write that it encourages Catholic couples to do so.

In the Catholic church of my childnood where there was no sex ed for anyone at any time under any circumstances, there were plenty of couples who lacked the vital information of NFP with the result that they ended up with half a dozen or more children. Now that we have NFP such families are the exception rather than the rule. It seems that "serious reasons" have become much, much more common than in the past - or that "serious reasons" in the past did not stand in the way of procreation.

 

[patricius79]

Please note that I wrote that NFP allows Catholic couples to have sex without the probability of conception. .

yes, if they practice self-control for serious reasons such as serious health problem, or similar

 

[MamaZ]

When put as self control I see the commitment part of the marriage relationship and what marriage is for belittled. For sex is for coming together as one flesh and sharing you most imtimate physical being for each other. If you can have sex in serious situations but not have children for serious situations what does self control have to do with this? It is more of a contraceptive move than anything.

 

[sunlover1]

Going to the dentist means there is no chance of becoming pregnant (at least my dentist). Is that contraception too?

This seems silly that we would equate daily events that are not sex as being contraceptive.

IKR?
That's why I couldn't understand your "going to the army" as being such..
Contra ception
Against conception.
Would have to be something that actually HAS to do with
avoiding conception.. Going to the army/dentise/zoo... none
of these things has anything to do with contraception.

 

[patricius79]

When put as self control I see the commitment part of the marriage relationship and what marriage is for belittled.

self control is necessary both within the marital act and for reasons like frigidity, health problems, emotional issues, etc

For sex is for coming together as one flesh and sharing you most imtimate physical being for each other. .

I agree with you

I think that is why contraception is wrong

 

[JacktheCatholic]

IKR?
That's why I couldn't understand your "going to the army" as being such..
Contra ception
Against conception.
Would have to be something that actually HAS to do with
avoiding conception.. Going to the army/dentise/zoo... none
of these things has anything to do with contraception.

Same thing is true with NFP, it has nothing to do with contraception.

For contraception to be present there needs to be sex and some way to prevent conception with sex. ie. barrier and chemical methods.

In NFP, when there is sex, there are no preventative measures taken which makes this argument for contraception null.

 

[ivebeenshown]

Pope Paul VI wrote this: "The Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth." The RCC will teach you a METHOD (means) to accomplish the contraception (END). No "sexless" marriage. Sex done contraceptively - TO CONTROL BIRTHS (ie, not have them).

Yes, I know your denomination says it's "evil" to do anything to "render procreation impossible" and yes, obviously, doing, practicing, implementing what the your denomination teaches couples to do does just that - but that's not my point (or concern), I'm simply pointing out that it is what it is.

Essentially, even though the paragraph mentions NFP as something 'in contrary' to contraception, you are nitpicking over wording when the meaning is very clear. Catechism openly states that NFP is birth control, and that there are types of birth control that are NOT ok to use, which it refers to as contraception.

 

[sunlover1]

Same thing is true with NFP, it has nothing to do with contraception.

For contraception to be present there needs to be sex and some way to prevent conception with sex. ie. barrier and chemical methods.

In NFP, when there is sex, there are no preventative measures taken which makes this argument for contraception null.

Natural FAMILY PLANNING.. its a way to PLAN how many kids
you'll have and when... it's mans way of controlling.. same
as using a condom... except one is denying the spouse their due
and the other isnt.

Yes, there ARE preventative measures taken.
Not doing it while fertile is certainly preventative.

But hey, w/e.
I'm way holier than ya'll anyhow.
*beats chest primitively

 

[JacktheCatholic]

My argument is that NFP is not contraceptive.

The reasoning for NFP being contraceptive is similar to someone going to the dentist and not having sex. Abstinence is being argued as contraceptive and that is a fallacy.

 

[sunlover1]

My argument is that NFP is not contraceptive.

The reasoning for NFP being contraceptive is similar to someone going to the dentist and not having sex. Abstinence is being argued as contraceptive and that is a fallacy.

My argument is that I'm holier than ya'll.


Oh wait, maybe that was a different thread

Seriously, a rose is still a rose no matter what the name and

TRYING to AVOID having a pregnancy, while STILL getting to have the sex
is really the same goal for both camps.

We want the sex but not so much the babes..

(Well not all of us naturally, ahem.)
just having some fun Jack..the storms are gone
and that makes me like a kid on Christmas eve.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Think what you will but NFP is not taught as contraceptive for Catholics for very good reasons.

Maybe Wiki says it better?

Not contraception

Some proponents of NFP differentiate it from other forms of birth control by labeling them artificial birth control.[26][27] Other NFP literature holds that natural family planning is distinct from contraception.[28][29][30] Proponents justify this classification system by saying that NFP has unique characteristics not shared by any other method of birth regulation except for abstinence. Commonly cited traits are that NFP is "open to life,"[27][30] and that NFP alters neither the fertility of the woman nor the fecundity of a particular sex act.[28][29] That NFP can be used to both avoid or achieve pregnancy may also be cited as a distinguishing characteristic.[citation needed] Additionally, NFP differs greatly from contraception because, according to action theory, NFP does not "break" the sexual act (separating the action from its purposes) in the way contraception does.

and

Official Catholic
Catholic doctrine holds that God created sexual intercourse to be both unitive and procreative.[39] The Catholic Church teaches that an act which deliberately attempts to divorce the unitive and procreative meaning of the marital act is opposed to God's plan for life and love in the order of creation. "[A]ny action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means" is opposed to this order and is therefore forbiden according to orthodox Catholic teaching. Thus, artificial birth control methods are forbidden, as are acts intended to end in [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] outside the context of intercourse (e.g. masturbation or oral sex that is not part of foreplay).[40] At the same time, not having sex at all (abstinence) is considered morally acceptable.[39]
Engaging in marital relations at an infertile time in a woman's life (such as pregnancy or post-menopause) is also considered acceptable, since the infertile condition is considered to be created by God, rather than as an act by the couple.[41] Similarly, under Catholic theology, it may be morally acceptable to abstain during the fertile part of the woman's menstrual cycle.[39] Increasing the postpartum infertile period through particular breastfeeding practices — the lactational amenorrhea method — is also considered a natural and morally unobjectionable way to space a family's children.[42]
The Catholic Church acknowledges a potential benefit of spacing children[39] and use of NFP for this reason is tolerated. Humanae Vitae cites "physical, economic, psychological and social conditions" as possibly compelling reasons to avoid pregnancy.[43] Couples are warned, however, against using NFP for selfish, immoral, or insincere reasons.[39] A few Catholic theologians argue that couples with several children may morally choose to avoid pregnancy, even if their circumstances (emotional, physical, and economic) would allow for more children.[44] More commonly, Catholic sources extol the benefits children bring to their parents, their siblings, and society in general, and encourage couples to have as many children as their circumstances make practical.[45][46][47][48]

 

[JacktheCatholic]

My argument is that I'm holier than ya'll.


Oh wait, maybe that was a different thread

Seriously, a rose is still a rose no matter what the name and

TRYING to AVOID having a pregnancy, while STILL getting to have the sex
is really the same goal for both camps.

We want the sex but not so much the babes..

(Well not all of us naturally, ahem.)
just having some fun Jack..the storms are gone
and that makes me like a kid on Christmas eve.

No one is claiming to be "holier than thou." Lest we forget the Jew that looked down on the sinner praying for forgiveness. We are all sinners, one and all.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

A article on abstinence which seperates contraceptives from what abstinence is:

Abstinence-only sex education is a form of sex education that emphasizes abstinence from sex, and often excludes many other types of sexual and reproductive health education, particularly regarding birth control and safe sex. This type of sex education promotes sexual abstinence until marriage and avoids discussion of use of contraceptives. Comprehensive sex education, by contrast, covers the use of contraceptives as well as abstinence.

Not even treated as the same thing.

source: Abstinence-only sex education | Ask.com Encyclopedia

 

[JacktheCatholic]

IMO... contraception is man thinking he knows creation better than God and so develops ways to sexually please themselves whenever they choose and not in accord with God's design of man and woman with the strict intent on pleasure even at the expense of a human life because contraceptive methods have proven to be abortive as well.

NFP vs Contraception

is like God vs man

NFP and contraception are contradictory. NFP leaves God as the master of Creation and it's design in marriage.

This is not to say Catholics are "holier than thou" but serves to provide an excellent theological explanation for people that choose to place God always at the front of their lives as their guide and master.

 

[ivebeenshown]

IMO... contraception is man thinking he knows creation better than God and so develops ways to sexually please themselves whenever they choose and not in accord with God's design of man and woman with the strict intent on pleasure even at the expense of a human life because contraceptive methods have proven to be abortive as well.

NFP vs Contraception

is like God vs man

NFP and contraception are contradictory. NFP leaves God as the master of Creation and it's design in marriage.

This is not to say Catholics are "holier than thou" but serves to provide an excellent theological explanation for people that choose to place God always at the front of their lives as their guide and master.

Precisely, God DESIGNED the woman to have fertile and infertile periods, a natural cycle ordained before creation. It is not a sin to refrain from sex when a woman is fertile or to engage in sex when she is naturally infertile. This does not 'seek to render procreation impossible' in terms of altering the natural processes, which is what that phrase means when understood in context.

Natural FAMILY PLANNING.. its a way to PLAN how many kids
you'll have and when... it's mans way of controlling.. same
as using a condom... except one is denying the spouse their due
and the other isnt.

Yes, there ARE preventative measures taken.
Not doing it while fertile is certainly preventative.

You'll find that the Catechism openly admits that NFP is a form of birth control. It's just about which forms of birth control are objectively moral or immoral.

NFP is not inherently 'denying the spouse their due' -- I'm pretty sure those who practice it are going to be couples in mutual agreement.

But about your 'chest-beating' comment... this is not about which of us are more or less holy or anything like that. It's about seeking the objective truth, objective morals.

Objectively, the use of condoms and pills and shots and vasectomies and etc. artificially alters the natural process of intercourse.
Objectively, refraining from sex during a woman's natural period of fertility does not alter any natural process of intercourse.
Objectively, engaging in sex during a woman's naturally infertile period does not alter any natural process of intercourse.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

This does not 'seek to render procreation impossible'

Then why is sex moved to when it's likely to render procreation impossible?

You'll find that the Catechism openly admits that NFP is a form of birth control.

I know. Tell that to some of the Catholics posting in this thread....

Typically birth control seeks to do WHAT? Stop conception, be contraceptive.

The use of condoms and pills and shots and vasectomies and etc. artificially alters the natural process of intercourse.

The "natural process of intercourse" is not something the RCC teaches in it's Birth Control Methods classes (it doesn't get into that at all). It would seem that what is "natural" for humans is to have sex when the two are mutually agree/seek such. Where in anthropology do you see that it is "natural" for couples to count days, take temperatures, take classes in how to render procreation impossible, and have plenty of sex but have it contraceptively? Could you site the studies that say THAT is what is "natural" for humans?

Objectively, refraining from sex during a woman's natural period of fertility does not alter any natural process of intercourse.

Nothing could alter it more; it's ENTIRELY about altering it. In fact, redirecting it ENTIRELY so that it's done contraceptively.






.

 

[cubinity]

were the reformers and the Catholic Church right to condemn contraception?

is there a strong link between contraception and divorce?

what was Onan's sin?

Judah got a wife named Tamar for his first-born, Er. 7 But Er, Judah's first-born, greatly offended the LORD; so the LORD took his life. 8 3Then Judah said to Onan, "Unite with your brother's widow, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother's line." 9 Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too.

To me, this is more about Onan's self-centered pursuits than about anything sexual.