Contraception???

[MariaRegina]

just so others know -- IIRC, nursing on demand includes unlimited night-time feeds; if your baby is a 'sleeper', you may become fertile earlier. (logistics may play a role in this, too)

Although my son was a sleeper, he woke in the middle of the night, found me and started nursing. We shared a family bed. After a few gulps, I fell asleep. Nursing him always put me to sleep quickly. Then I awoke to find him on the other one. It was much easier and less expensive than bottle feeding.

I did not have a fertile cycle until more than a year after delivering him. Most of my friends who breastfeed had two years of breastfeeding infertility, especially those who had two children nursing in tandem, often of different ages (a newborn and a 30 month old).

 

[heart of peace]

(2) to prevent implantation in case ovulation occurs by forming an inhospitable situation in the womb = abortion.

Ok, believe it or not, I didn't know that this could occur . The doctors don't allow women to be privy to this fact when prescribing the pill. They lead you to believe that the pill only suppresses ovulation.


I am grateful that I was always suspicious of hormonal birth control. They never sat right with me as I felt anything that alters the natural order of things is harmful to us.

 

[zhilan]

I hate to burst your bubble Lotar, but I have seem some pretty ...... hearty women with 4+ children. ;D

 

[Philothei]

1.) The types of moral decisions my spiritual father makes in any facet of his life can definitely have an effect on my spiritual life, as it would for anyone.

2.)My priest is exceedingly faithful to the Church in this regard. No need to talk to the bishop.

3.)No offense, but I'll take the Church Fathers over GOArch bishops (I know of great traditional GOArch priests, but this is the jurisdiction that tonsured a woman reader and openly states that it disagrees with Tradition on the subject of Contraception).

It think you missunderstood my post.. I did not say there is no truth to what you say.. ... I just want to take this to the next step where it could be resolved... I know about the Church fathers.. and what our tradition calls for... I was talking about "blowing the whstle" on the issue... and discussing that with the Bishops...

But on the other hand I saw that you were too eager to through more dirt about "a reader" of the GOA who I honestly had no idea about...



and openly states ...


if she did we would have heard about i.. and plus I do not see how her opinion has to to with the contraception been used by the priest.. or what is claimed....You mean that reader is such a "strong" influence that she persuades the priest to use it?


Also this is a free country and anyone can offer their opinion ... in that case she must be acting on her own... people do that stuff all the time also in Forums nowadays things are been said and written about without event the person's knowledge... You can let me know in a pm the information if you like...

 

[Lotar]

if she did we would have heard about i.. and plus I do not see how her opinion has to to with the contraception been used by the priest.. or what is claimed....You mean that reader is such a "strong" influence that she persuades the priest to use it?

I'm sorry, I meant GOArch openly states that it disagrees with the Fathers on contraception on its website.

 

[Philothei]

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp


please show me excatly where the GOA denies what the fathers say "kat'ekonomia" is not allowed ....

 

[Lotar]

"The possible exception to the above affirmation of continuity of teaching is the view of the Orthodox Church on the issue of contraception."

 

[Philothei]

Also can anyone explain to me how abstenence or NFP is not contraception or ? the result is the same ....no kids... and where it is encouraged by the fathers? And how Family planning is different from NFP... ??? is it for the same purpose of spacing children?

in those days they did not even knew about the cicle... Absinence was forbitten for sure since it is in the Bible that says that the couple should freely come together .. less the Satan temp us... I can find the excact quote if anyone is interested...


How can spacing children be..... abortion? That is not what church teaches...

 

[Philothei]

"The possible exception to the above affirmation of continuity of teaching is the view of the Orthodox Church on the issue of contraception."

yeah ...sure so? that does not mean what they are saying is "outside" of tradition... The RC have NFP and they do not seem to have a problem about it they are just justify it by saying it is natural... we call it by its name and we get in trouble ....It is all in what you call it inst't it?

 

[Lotar]

yeah ...sure so? that does not mean what they are saying is "outside" of tradition... The RC have NFP and they do not seem to have a problem about it they are just justify it by saying it is natural... we call it by its name and we get in trouble ....It is all in what you call it inst't it?

Economy for NFP has support in the Fathers (St. John Chrysostom said it was allowable at times), economy for contraception does not.

The point is that there can be two sins in contraception: 1. Rejecting God's gift of children and the multiplication of the image of God, and 2. Separating the procreative from the purpose of the sex act.

It is possible to use contraception without committing the first sin, but impossible to use without committing the second. NFP is possible to use without violating either, though often violates the first, the same as contraception.

That is why, when you look at what traditional jurisdictions (like ROCOR, ROC, the Romanians, ect.) say, it is contraception is never allowed, and NFP can be allowed under certain circumstance, under the guidance of a priest.

 

[Matrona]

"The possible exception to the above affirmation of continuity of teaching is the view of the Orthodox Church on the issue of contraception."

That's because there wasn't any such thing as contraception as we know it today until very recently. There have been some primitive attempts at it for centuries, but they obviously didn't work very well and the woman who found herself in a condition after one of those failed, would usually resort to killing her baby by abortion, hence the Fathers' fierce condemnation of the whole shebang.

Also, "N"FP is contraception, being every bit as unnatural as condoms and diaphragms, and it still requires the same prayerful consideration and the permission of one's spiritual father.

Furthermore, the Church has never held that the sole purpose of sexual relations is to bring children into the world, otherwise it would be sinful for infertile couples to have sex or hypocritical for them to be allowed to.

 

[Philothei]

Your whole life decisions should be based on the advice of your priest... not only that...

And I disagree with you on NFP... that is the catholic look upon it.... NFP is and can be used as contraception... to avoid pregnancy as well as abstinece... they are both contraception since they avoid conception..never mind the technicalities... it is stil avoiding parenthood... if does not justify using it...

Actually IMO it is more sinful to deny yourself to your spouse for avoiding conception... One has to search the fathers more to see what they say about marital relations and procreation it is only Augustine that declares that "marriage without children is sinfull" and he is quite heretical in his saying so... like if a couple is inferile their union is not blessed by God....



St John’s Homily 19 on 1 Corinthians 6 deals with the role of sexual relations in marriage. He emphasizes first of all the equality of husband and wife in this regard. Neither spouse should seek to abstain from sex without the consent of the other, and even then only temporarily. Such abstinence creates tensions in the home and often leads to adultery and divorce. St. John seems to be addressing some women in particular who have thought that they were practicing a righteous asceticism in abstaining from sex.....


Also according to St. Clement's logic or "the sperm never be waisted" then abstinence that would eventually would result in a nocturnal emission would be considered "waste" and it is not allowed....

here:


In A.D. 191 St. Clement of Alexandria (a Greek theologian of considerable influence on the theological development of the early Church) referred to Onan's evil act in these words:

"He broke the law of coitus." 13 He went on to explain that "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted." 14

this specific part is about withdrawl that was used as a contraception back then ...

and also:

St. john Chrysostome":


What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws?... Yet such turpitude... the matter still seems indifferent to many men; even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks". 18


​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The procreation of children in marriage is the 'heritage' and 'reward' of the Lord; a blessing of God (cf. Psalm 127:3). It is the natural result of the act of sexual intercourse in marriage, which is a sacred union through which God Himself joins the two together into 'one flesh' (Genesis 1-2, Matthew 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5, et. al.). The procreation of children is not in itself the sole purpose of marriage, but a marriage without the desire for children, and the prayer to God to bear and nurture them, is contrary to the 'sacrament of love.'" 19[/FONT]

also:

this from the same sit e about the Russian Church.....


A modified version of this view was also endorsed in August, 2000 at the Jubilee Bishop's Council of the Russian Orthodox Church, to whit:

"Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgments are applicable to the use of them as to abortion.But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least."5​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thus, while it is clear that the Russian Orthodox Church allows contraception, it bans the use of those which are abortifacient, and which may have a primary or secondary effect of
destroying life.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://hli.org/seminarians_eastern_orthodoxy_contraception.html[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​

 

[heart of peace]

How can spacing children be..... abortion? That is not what church teaches...

It's not, Philothei, that is why no one who is arguing the other angle addressed me when I asked that earlier in this thread.

Economy for NFP has support in the Fathers (St. John Chrysostom said it was allowable at times), economy for contraception does not.

The point is that there can be two sins in contraception: 1. Rejecting God's gift of children and the multiplication of the image of God, and 2. Separating the procreative from the purpose of the sex act.

It is possible to use contraception without committing the first sin, but impossible to use without committing the second. NFP is possible to use without violating either, though often violates the first, the same as contraception.

That is why, when you look at what traditional jurisdictions (like ROCOR, ROC, the Romanians, ect.) say, it is contraception is never allowed, and NFP can be allowed under certain circumstance, under the guidance of a priest.

There isn't much I can add to what Philothei said. NFP is contraception btw. Additionally, I second Philothei's suggestion that you spend more time in research over the divine purpose for marriage and marital relations from an Orthodox perspective. It is clear that you are lacking a complete picture.

Your whole life decisions should be based on the advice of your priest... not only that...

And I disagree with you on NFP... that is the catholic look upon it.... NFP is and can be used as contraception... to avoid pregnancy as well as abstinece... they are both contraception since they avoid conception..never mind the technicalities... it is stil avoiding parenthood... if does not justify using it...

Actually IMO it is more sinful to deny yourself to your spouse for avoiding conception... One has to search the fathers more to see what they say about marital relations and procreation it is only Augustine that declares that "marriage without children is sinfull" and he is quite heretical in his saying so... like if a couple is inferile their union is not blessed by God....



St John’s Homily 19 on 1 Corinthians 6 deals with the role of sexual relations in marriage. He emphasizes first of all the equality of husband and wife in this regard. Neither spouse should seek to abstain from sex without the consent of the other, and even then only temporarily. Such abstinence creates tensions in the home and often leads to adultery and divorce. St. John seems to be addressing some women in particular who have thought that they were practicing a righteous asceticism in abstaining from sex.....


Also according to St. Clement's logic or "the sperm never be waisted" then abstinence that would eventually would result in a nocturnal emission would be considered "waste" and it is not allowed....

here:



In A.D. 191 St. Clement of Alexandria (a Greek theologian of considerable influence on the theological development of the early Church) referred to Onan's evil act in these words:

"He broke the law of coitus." 13 He went on to explain that "Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted." 14​

this specific part is about withdrawl that was used as a contraception back then ... ​

and also:​

St. john Chrysostome":​

What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and fight with his [natural] laws?... Yet such turpitude... the matter still seems indifferent to many men; even to many men having wives. In this indifference of the married men there is greater evil filth; for then poisons are prepared, not against the womb of a prostitute, but against your injured wife. Against her are these innumerable tricks". 18​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The procreation of children in marriage is the 'heritage' and 'reward' of the Lord; a blessing of God (cf. Psalm 127:3). It is the natural result of the act of sexual intercourse in marriage, which is a sacred union through which God Himself joins the two together into 'one flesh' (Genesis 1-2, Matthew 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5, et. al.). The procreation of children is not in itself the sole purpose of marriage, but a marriage without the desire for children, and the prayer to God to bear and nurture them, is contrary to the 'sacrament of love.'" 19[/FONT]​

also:​

this from the same sit e about the Russian Church.....​

A modified version of this view was also endorsed in August, 2000 at the Jubilee Bishop's Council of the Russian Orthodox Church, to whit:

"Among the problems which need a religious and moral assessment is that of contraception. Some contraceptives have an abortive effect, interrupting artificially the life of the embryo on the very first stages of his life. Therefore, the same judgments are applicable to the use of them as to abortion.But other means, which do not involve interrupting an already conceived life, cannot be equated with abortion in the least."5​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thus, while it is clear that the Russian Orthodox Church allows contraception, it bans the use of those which are abortifacient, and which may have a primary or secondary effect of [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]destroying life.[/FONT]




[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://hli.org/seminarians_eastern_orthodoxy_contraception.html[/FONT]


​

Philothei...... I wish I knew you offline as I would be tempted to ask you to mentor me.



I just wanted to comment that what is going on in this thread reminds me of Romans 14 where St. Paul discusses how one person's faith allows them to eat all things and one person's faith declares he should only eat vegetables. He says do not let what is good for you to be spoken of as evil. It appears that for Lotar and his walk, it would serve as a stumbling block to try to come to terms with what you have been presenting. I no longer am disheartened by his commentary. There is no shame for those who abide in the Truth and we don't live for man but for God. He is who we must answer to, and if you are living for God, then that is all that matters. One last thing, for purposes of being sure that any lurker or newcomer inquiring about the faith reading this thread is informed of the truth, I want to comment that you (as well as others) have done a fine job in making that clear.

 

[Thekla]

Exactly. Which is another reason why we cannot judge individuals. Groups is another question.

rather implies that the "group of us" with many children belong to the category of "no self-control"

 

[ThePilgrim]

Of course, while we can judge an action in general, we're all agreed that we shouldn't judge individuals, because we don't' know their hearts or their circumstances...

But for anyone out there that might be having trouble conceiving, let me just take a second to plug a wonderful option: Adopt!

There are hundreds of thousands of kids, millions even, who need homes. If anyone is reading this thread and has even the tiniest bit of room in their heart and in their home, please, please prayerfully consider adoption!!! It's more important than you know, and God will bless your life through the adoption more than you could understand right now.

:-D

In Christ,
John

 

[Lotar]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Thus, while it is clear that the Russian Orthodox Church allows contraception, it bans the use of those which are abortifacient, and which may have a primary or secondary effect of
destroying life.
[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​

Poppycock.

"Couples must want to have children while sharing the nuptial bed and not resort to tricks to avoid pregnancy."
-Patriarch Alexei II, Dec 31 2006

Quotes for Bp Hilarion and Met Krill are abundant as well. Distinguishing doesn't mean okay, it means different penances. Read it in conjuntion with the previous synod that stated contraception is rejected by the Chuch.

 

[Lotar]

rather implies that the "group of us" with many children belong to the category of "no self-control"

LOL. True. My wife and I are probably destined to beat the Duggers.

 

[zhilan]

I think there is always a danger in pulling two or three line quotes from the church fathers to support one view or the other.

There are a lot of issues that go into this and a lot of issues that go into various quotes from various church fathers.

That's why these decisions, like the decisions about anything regarding one's spiritual life and salvation, are made with the guidance of our SF.

Everyone struggles with different sins, which God sees all of them, and little good can come of speculating about others based on the number of children they have. Someone could have 10 children, but could be lusting after his wife, approaching sex as a means to satisfy his urges rather than martial union. The fact that 10 children came of that wouldn't make his treatment of the marital act less sinful. Only God knows our heart, and I think it's good to remember what we say before receiving communion, "Christ, who didst come into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief."

 

[heart of peace]

Re: group vs individual judment

I think this is ridiculous that there are people in here actually justifying their "right" to judge the group versus the individual. Do you not realize that there are individuals who are posting in this forum who belong to the "group" you are so openly condemning or exalting? How is that not a passive-aggressive way to judge an individual and label it a "group" judgment. Forgive me for my bluntness but I find this attitude reprehensible especially from devout Orthodox. I'd expect better, more humble behavior.

Let me add before anyone asks, yes I am also making judgments here but I am not disguising it and I am certainly not labeling it sin. I am holding individuals accountable for their actions, which we are to do as part of the body of Christ.

Of course, while we can judge an action in general, we're all agreed that we shouldn't judge individuals, because we don't' know their hearts or their circumstances...

But for anyone out there that might be having trouble conceiving, let me just take a second to plug a wonderful option: Adopt!

There are hundreds of thousands of kids, millions even, who need homes. If anyone is reading this thread and has even the tiniest bit of room in their heart and in their home, please, please prayerfully consider adoption!!! It's more important than you know, and God will bless your life through the adoption more than you could understand right now.

:-D

In Christ,
John

You bring up an interesting point and one that I wanted to address earlier but didn't want to threadjack...lol

For those that are judging the spiritual health of the "group" of people (of which many individuals that post on this forum belong to that group, se above) chose to use contraception as they were convicted that they were to adopt all their children, what would your opinion be then regarding contraception use?

 

[Philothei]

Zilian,
My quotes had no intention other than showing that St. John Chrisostome says about the specific issue for more on Marriage there is a book out of St. Chrysostome ... I quoted it within context as I have read mumerous times the book and understand the spirit of what he was saying.. Now if anyone has a different approach to this peticular quote ( or if is is out of context) I would be more than interested to see the interpretation he/she gives....


Also per you comment about "lust" in marriage... I am quite confused.....The fact that marital union and marital bliss is also physical I do not see the connection...Maybe you wanted to say 'obsession" or "addiction" then that would make sense...and that is something to be dealed with the SF... Again marital relations are not void of physical love that is expressed in a very natural way and should not be interpret as lust... but in reality it is nothing but love expressed in a physical sense and absolutely a gift from God...Sexual relations are blessed when expressed in marriage nothing "sinful" about that, whether a couple has 1 or 10 children it has nothing to do with their sexual relation... rather the children are the gifts that God bestows to a couple, it would be obsurd to think of them as a product of lust.... sorry to disagree....


Philothei