Contraception???

[Dorothea]

Maybe they're not doing it right.

She says that if they are doing it full time without supplementing with formula it should suppress ovulation, but as we know things happen. This is not to say it's as effective a a barrier method, but if you're not going to abstain, then you kinda open yourself to the possibility of pregnancy.

Basil

Yes, they and many women (some I've talked to about it) thought they couldn't get pregnant while breastfeeding, so they didn't abstain or use anything.

 

[Dorothea]

Well, we did it all wrong. We used condoms while spacing out the children because we wanted some years between the (came out to nearly 3-1/2, which is what is the age between my sister and I). I guess we did wrong throughout those years and even now.... Before, early on, we didn't know that using contraceptives (we only used condoms) was bad or not good according to the Church. We've grown closer to our church the past 10 years, but never thought of asking about contraception....didn't think it was a big issue in the Orthodox Church. Boy, were we wrong.

 

[Philothei]

I said one of the reasons that we have married clergy is because they model marriage for us.


That is not really why we have married priests... what about our celiebant priests and our Bishops.... are they less of a model because they are not married...

I do not agree that is the reason at all..I think it was because the Apostles were married...that is why. And let me tell you that the Apostles travelled "alone" without their family to their different missions... now how did this set a example of a "good family" I am sure back in those days they did not have to worry about "image" but example...ARe we confusing the two? Also let me understand this you are saying that priests should and no one says no to that, examples of "perfect" families.... Are we doing an injustice here demanding a man with a low paid salary to be able to pay for all his children education and so forth... What is so difficult for some to realize that practical problems as being poor is a legitamate reason for not be able to have more children.... Or realizing one's limits as human beings either being mentally, emothionally or othewise challenged should be a true impediment to having more children...

I would understand for an afluent priest who would not give much though of having more for the self evident reason that he is too comfortable in his luxury but a sweeping statement that ALL priests SHOULD have big families is outrageous.... Once I knew (God rest his soul) a Russian old timer priest with 3 children... He told me his life story and how his salary was so low that he could not feed his children... and he was working all of his life as a taxi driver... He was tearing remembering those days. He was taking care still of his two very young grandchildren of his daughter who was in Iraque war... He was also taking care of another grandaughter bringing her back and forth from her college every day... What a wonderful priest and example he was... In total he was bringing up 6 children including his grandchildren... Now how can he not "be a good example" because he had 3 children? I do not believe you are talking about those priests...( I hope you do not) with small families....Under his circumstances that was the best he could do and I do believe that God does not blame him for "not having the large family"..as he did raise more than his share...

I considered him a holy man (even married) because his life was a bright example of a father, a family man, a grandfather and a devout husband... He used to call his wife.... "my infalable head"...lol... jokingly... I miss him for his jolly smile and wit...

Please let us show some respect to our priests instead of judging them...although they are called to be Apostles and the icon of Christ they are still human with wearknesses and faults, but above all let us pray for them for their task to take care of their families and also be a Father to our communities.

Philothei

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I am going to respond to this post a little out of order because I want to clear something up from the start:

a sweeping statement that ALL priests SHOULD have big families is outrageous

Of course that would be outrageous. If I said that. But I did not say that in any of my posts. Please do not misrepresent my words. It is unfair.

If you stand by your claim that I said this please post a direct quote wherein I said this. Otherwise, please retract this mischaracterization. Thank you.

That is not really why we have married priests...

I have read otherwise but I will have to rack my brain to remember where I read about this. The author also said it is part of why the presbyter must be the husband of one wife. I will look for what I read...

what about our celiebant priests and our Bishops.... are they less of a model because they are not married...

No they model something else for us: total devotion to God through celibacy/virginity.

Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it. --Matthew 19

And let me tell you that the Apostles travelled "alone" without their family to their different missions... now how did this set a example of a "good family"

It showed that the purpose of marriage is salvation, not necessarily domestic bliss.

I am sure back in those days they did not have to worry about "image" but example... ARe we confusing the two?

What is the difference between image and example to you? I want to understand what you are saying better.

Also let me understand this you are saying that priests should and no one says no to that, examples of "perfect" families....

No, I never said that anyone should have a perfect family. I am saying that the household of the priest is a legitimate concern for the church community as a whole

Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) --I Timothy

An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. --Titus

The family of the priest and how it is managed is a qualification for serving the Church. I am not making this up; it is in the New Testament.

Are we doing an injustice here demanding a man with a low paid salary to be able to pay for all his children education and so forth... What is so difficult for some to realize that practical problems as being poor is a legitamate reason for not be able to have more children.... Or realizing one's limits as human beings either being mentally, emothionally or othewise challenged should be a true impediment to having more children...

I am really not getting into the application of the possible answers to the questions that I raise. Let me explain something: I ask hard questions that may lead to difficult answers because I want to know the truth about something. I know that we are all called to perfection. I know that God is merciful when we fall short of perfection. But I still want to know what perfection demands of us in particular situations.

I am not anyone's bishop. I am not trying to make anyone do anything. Each of us has our own conscience to obey. I am not here to persuade anyone or change anyone. I come here to discuss. That is all.

I would understand for an afluent priest who would not give much though of having more for the self evident reason that he is too comfortable in his luxury but a sweeping statement that ALL priests SHOULD have big families is outrageous....

As I stated earlier, I never said this. It isn't even something I would ever say so it bothers me all the more.

Once I knew (God rest his soul) a Russian old timer priest with 3 children... Now how can he not "be a good example" because he had 3 children? I do not believe you are talking about those priests...( I hope you do not) with small families....Under his circumstances that was the best he could do and I do believe that God does not blame him for "not having the large family"..as he did raise more than his share...

Of course he is a wonderful example! I am not even saying that priest who has economia to use birth control isn't a good example. As I said earlier in post #52

Well, first, I posed the question to bring up the possibility that our situation in the Orthodox Church may be more complex because we have married priests. If we had celebate clergy it would be another story. Generally I think there needs to be more openness about the issue. Because the American norm is having 2.5 children, it would be normal for someone living in modern society to assume that a priest with a small family is preventing conception. If nothing else, priests should be aware that an assumption can/will be made and take pains to stress the Orthodox position on the issue.

Please let us show some respect to our priests instead of judging them...although they are called to be Apostles and the icon of Christ they are still human with wearknesses and faults, but above all let us pray for them for their task to take care of their families and also be a Father to our communities.

I am not judging anyone. I do respect priests whether married or not, big families or small. I also know that some people have small familes that would rather have large ones.

I am asking questions here. There is no sin in asking questions about my faith, the teaching of the Church and the implications of how those teachings affected by modern life. I pray for priests and I want to see all of us (clergy and lay) in the Church actively called to holiness and the perfection of Christ even as we are assured of grace when we fall short.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." --Matthew 5:48
'
M.

 

[Thekla]

But when women nurse on demand for the first year of life, spacing can occur naturally because ovulation is suppressed. It is like God designed it that way

M.

just so others know -- IIRC, nursing on demand includes unlimited night-time feeds; if your baby is a 'sleeper', you may become fertile earlier. (logistics may play a role in this, too)

 

[vanshan]

I find financial excuses for not having more children the least compelling reason for avoiding or blocking having children. If someone is in a situation where they will be homeless, or are already homeless that may be valid, but for most of us more children would be just a matter of sacrifice, or shuffling finances around.

Sure, with eight kids you may not be able to pay tuition for them to attend private school, get riding lessons, etc., but you can still feed them, love them, and raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. In our materialistic age, I fall prey to feelings of regret that I can't get my kids the finest things, but I am comforted when my little kids complain when our evening prayers are too short, even if they are just trying to stay up later , when they are sad when we miss one of the services of the church, and when they show love to one another.

Basil

 

[Dorothea]

For the record, my priest has four boys...all teenagers.

 

[Thekla]

I find financial excuses for not having more children the least compelling reason for avoiding or blocking having children. If someone is in a situation where they will be homeless, or are already homeless that may be valid, but for most of us more children would be just a matter of sacrifice, or shuffling finances around.

Sure, with eight kids you may not be able to pay tuition for them to attend private school, get riding lessons, etc., but you can still feed them, love them, and raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. In our materialistic age, I fall prey to feelings of regret that I can't get my kids the finest things, but I am comforted when my little kids complain when our evening prayers are too short, even if they are just trying to stay up later , when they are sad when we miss one of the services of the church, and when they show love to one another.

Basil

I agree with you, to an extent; for some families, its not just a matter of doing with less. Real income has fallen, and our population is becoming more centered in urban areas - following employment.

When I was a kid, we made my dad's meager salary stretch by fishing, hunting, mushroom gathering and a big garden. (We also knew a pig farmer, who shared free outdated dairy products with us.) As the waterways become more polluted, and families cannot have a garden (city living) , supplementing a low salary is harder.

Job security is a thing of the past.

Truly, God does provide and we are not to worry about how we will eat. But as a parent, that is awfully hard to do.

As per our priests, and their family size, it is hard to know from the outside what governs the number of offspring. In my view, this is not our concern.

 

[ThePilgrim]

Um.... The Apostles *did* travel with their wives, according to the New Testament.

 

[Thekla]

clearly, wherever we see a family with many children (mine excluded) especially a priest, we should give them additional money, food, etc

we must live our belief

 

[rainbowbright]

I think it's funny the reactions I am getting from people at church, including my priest who has five kids, about my pregnancy. They look at me as if I have grown another head. I thought children were supposed to be a blessing. My priest had granted us economia, so I got an iud b/c my ob told me they were not an abortificant, well I did research and found out they are, so I made her take it out a week later (she was IRATE). Then my priest told me we needed to try NFP- yeah, that didn't work and we'll be having our fifth in early September. I will have five nearly six and under, although, I like to think my twins don't quite count as far as numbers go since they were a two-for-one special.

 

[Mikeb85]

I find financial excuses for not having more children the least compelling reason for avoiding or blocking having children. If someone is in a situation where they will be homeless, or are already homeless that may be valid, but for most of us more children would be just a matter of sacrifice, or shuffling finances around.

Sure, with eight kids you may not be able to pay tuition for them to attend private school, get riding lessons, etc., but you can still feed them, love them, and raise them in the fear and admonition of the Lord. In our materialistic age, I fall prey to feelings of regret that I can't get my kids the finest things, but I am comforted when my little kids complain when our evening prayers are too short, even if they are just trying to stay up later , when they are sad when we miss one of the services of the church, and when they show love to one another.

Basil

I don't know where you live, but while the economy is doing well over here, the cost of living has gone through the roof. The average selling price of a house here has gone up to $455,000, and is getting closer to the half-million mark. An average condo is over $300,000. Want a house to hold those 8 kids? You're looking at spending $750,000...(which isn't possible for most people, even middle class) Unless you're going to put 3 kids in a room and have a few sleep on the couch.

When I was growing up, my parents only had 2 kids to worry about. But all too often we'd wonder where our next meal was coming from. From the age of 10 I was constantly working some sort of job, at 15 I was working full-time, while going to school. I don't know, I personally don't want that for my kids...

In an agrarian society, sure, people had the resources to raise many children. However with the cost of living the way it is these days, it's really not feasible to have more than 2-3 kids in a western country these days. Not to mention the single-income family is dead, with no one to take care of the kids at home, what then? Neglect them, go broke paying for babysitters?

 

[Philothei]

Um.... The Apostles *did* travel with their wives, according to the New Testament.

Not all of them... some with larger families did leave them behind ... I do not have the source handy but I know that from my patrology class as we "scrutinized" their lives....

 

[Matrona]

I think it's funny the reactions I am getting from people at church, including my priest who has five kids, about my pregnancy. They look at me as if I have grown another head. I thought children were supposed to be a blessing.

I don't mean to sound irreverent, but it might be more about the quick turn-around time than the number of kids.

My priest had granted us economia, so I got an iud b/c my ob told me they were not an abortificant, well I did research and found out they are, so I made her take it out a week later (she was IRATE).

I wanted to pat you on the back for this. Too many people would have wanted to "be a good patient" and not have the courage to stand up for themselves like you did.

 

[Philothei]

I don't know where you live, but while the economy is doing well over here, the cost of living has gone through the roof. The average selling price of a house here has gone up to $455,000, and is getting closer to the half-million mark. An average condo is over $300,000. Want a house to hold those 8 kids? You're looking at spending $750,000...(which isn't possible for most people, even middle class) Unless you're going to put 3 kids in a room and have a few sleep on the couch.

When I was growing up, my parents only had 2 kids to worry about. But all too often we'd wonder where our next meal was coming from. From the age of 10 I was constantly working some sort of job, at 15 I was working full-time, while going to school. I don't know, I personally don't want that for my kids...

In an agrarian society, sure, people had the resources to raise many children. However with the cost of living the way it is these days, it's really not feasible to have more than 2-3 kids in a western country these days. Not to mention the single-income family is dead, with no one to take care of the kids at home, what then? Neglect them, go broke paying for babysitters?

I totally agree with you that having a child less or more according to someone's economic means should not be "a sin" anyways that sits with their spiritual father and we should not judge.... How can we judge the spiritual councel we get from our Spritual father... who are we to question their advice?? The judgment sits with God alone.. and the priest will have to answer to God for his advice...

What is the purpose of questioning such things?

Raising an issue we should have the courage to accept responsibilty for it.. If we "question" something ... are we doing so in ignorance?

It is funny how in our days we can play with words like that... If we raise questions that means we need answers ... and for this particular issue it is only one's spiritual father that can answer... individually...

Asking questions about "what and why the priests do not have large families" is still a judgment... It is not any better than asking why not all EO christians do not take communion on Sunday...
so it is better not to question IMO... as:


Romans 14:10 “Why do you criticize and pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you look down upon or despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God.
(12) And so each of us shall give an account of himself - give an answer in reference to judgment - to God.
(13) Then let us no more criticize and blame and pass judgment on one another, but rather decide and endeavor never to put a stumbling block or an obstacle or a hindrance in the way of a brother.” (The Amplified Bible)



also St. John Chrysostome writes about the "Obligation of the laity to the Priest"....

Paul Allen in the book "The Ministry of the Church" writes:
"It is now important to turn to the second focus, the flock itself, and their ministry. i.e. the ministry of the laity within the church. What are their obligations, and what then, is the difficulty which the shepherd has in leading them toward the fulfillment of those obligations?

First, regarding the flock, it is thei FAITH which is a precondition to recieving the gifts of God. In their own faith they will not to judging the shepherd's worthiness, for he "will not harm them, if they have faith," and since in any case, God's gifts are not conditioned upon any power the priest himself has. Again Chrysostome drives hom his point by using liturgical imagery:

Reverence him. because every day he ministers to you, causes the scripture to be read... .prays for you, offeres supplications for you....Say not, he is unworthy. How does that affect the matter? Does he that is worthy bestow these great benefits on you of himself? By no means! Everything comes about because of faith. Not even the righteous man can benefit you, if you lack faith, nor the unrighteous harm you, if you have faith... Is it good life of the priest or his virtue which confers too much on you? The gifts that God bestows are not such as to be effects of the power of the priest. Everything spirngs from grace. The priest has but to open his mouth, but God it is who works all things. The priest only performs the sign... The offering is the same whether it is offered by a common man or by Peter or Paul. Christ gave the same thing to hsi disciples which the priests now minister. One is not less than the other, fo rit not men who concecrate it, but Christ himself who bestows sanctification. For as the words which God spoke are the same which the priest now utters, so i s the offering the same, just as the baptism which he gave. Thus the whole is a matter of faith (Second Homily on 2Timothy 4,based on NPNF, vol, 13, p.483)


Paul Allen, "The Ministry of the Church" p.108-109

 

[heart of peace]

Are we doing an injustice here demanding a man with a low paid salary to be able to pay for all his children education and so forth... What is so difficult for some to realize that practical problems as being poor is a legitamate reason for not be able to have more children.... Or realizing one's limits as human beings either being mentally, emothionally or othewise challenged should be a true impediment to having more children...

Thank you for your commentary Philothei. God is using you to speak to others on this thread. I know because your words are soothing to my spirit

I find financial excuses for not having more children the least compelling reason for avoiding or blocking having children. If someone is in a situation where they will be homeless, or are already homeless that may be valid, but for most of us more children would be just a matter of sacrifice, or shuffling finances around.
Basil

And I find your open harsh judgment of other people's lives quite the opposite of humble. That may be true for you and your life but that is unfair of you to project that on to others. Let's not lose sight that we each have our own path to theosis.

I don't know where you live, but while the economy is doing well over here, the cost of living has gone through the roof. The average selling price of a house here has gone up to $455,000, and is getting closer to the half-million mark. An average condo is over $300,000. Want a house to hold those 8 kids? You're looking at spending $750,000...(which isn't possible for most people, even middle class) Unless you're going to put 3 kids in a room and have a few sleep on the couch.

When I was growing up, my parents only had 2 kids to worry about. But all too often we'd wonder where our next meal was coming from. From the age of 10 I was constantly working some sort of job, at 15 I was working full-time, while going to school. I don't know, I personally don't want that for my kids...

In an agrarian society, sure, people had the resources to raise many children. However with the cost of living the way it is these days, it's really not feasible to have more than 2-3 kids in a western country these days. Not to mention the single-income family is dead, with no one to take care of the kids at home, what then? Neglect them, go broke paying for babysitters?

This is why I have trouble partaking in these conversations about contraception and Orthodoxy. I don't believe that God wants me to have as many children as I can and not provide for them an education (college is not free), decent meals (as healthy meals are much more expensive than processed foods), et cetera.

Obviously there is a difference between financially not being able to provide a decent amount of space for one's children and not being able to provide a pool with a poolhouse. These are very personal decisions that must be made prayerfully and seeking guidance (the motive is of dire importance). No one has any right to come on to a message forum and form judgments about someone's decision to use contraception (barrier methods) to space children apart.

 

[ThePilgrim]

Not all of them... some with larger families did leave them behind ... I do not have the source handy but I know that from my patrology class as we "scrutinized" their lives....

Well, according to the Scriptures, all of them except Paul traveled with their wives. Until you can find a source that says otherwise, I'm going with St. Paul

 

[ThePilgrim]

Why do you feel that you're obligated to provide college for your children? My siblings and I have always known that we were on our own for paying for college. I think it teaches kids responsibility to have them be responsible for their own college. At the very least, you aren't *obligated* to do it.

Grace and peace,
John

 

[heart of peace]

Why do you feel that you're obligated to provide college for your children? My siblings and I have always known that we were on our own for paying for college. I think it teaches kids responsibility to have them be responsible for their own college. At the very least, you aren't *obligated* to do it.

Grace and peace,
John

This is not how I believe I should teach my children fiscal responsibility. An 18yr old having to pay at a minimum a $40,000 price tag (that is roughly how much a 4 year state college degree goes for these days) is a bit ridiculous in my opinion. I also don't want him to not attend a school like Yale if he could make it and wants to attend because I am forcing him to pay his own way.

My child will be responsible for purchasing his very expensive books and focusing on getting as best as he can to a 4.0 that he can. His job will be getting his degree with honors, not worrying about how he will have to pay the next bill.

And college is mandatory in my home. We see things differently on this.

 

[Philothei]

John, the issue at hand is not education rather be able to bring up the children... providing food, mortagde and clothing. My mom never questioned any of our priests growing up she simply provided him with some necessary items when she could... Growing up I never "questioned" why our priest had two kids... and in case anyone is wondering .. about me... yes My hubby is a priest.. and I did had a misscarriage after my first child and we were frustrated we could not concieve again ... and now I do have medical reasons for not having kids... Hope everyone is okay with me... now.. .I do not have to explain but ... I feel obligated since I happen to be a PW...

And also I will find you the information i do not have my Quasten Patrology at hand and cannot find it on line but could call my old partology teacher... and I will get back to you...

As per your question about college ... I do not feel obligated to pay for college and probably will not .. .as being a priest you spend more money paying for moving around the country and we have not saved much... if the laity knew how many times we bite our tongue and we swollow so many troubles in order not to 'scandalize' the laity ......

But enough said...

Lord have mercy on me.
Philothei