Contraception???

[Lotar]

Has anyone asked themselves about the sizes of the families of our married priests? I know one priest with 8 children and I know another who were only able to carry one pregnancy to term. But generally the priests that I know who are married have the American "norm" of 2 or 3 children. Maybe that is why there isn't strong teaching on this? I don't know.

Also, when talking about contraception remember that NFP is considered the same as barrier (non-abortifacient) BC. Unlike the RCs we don't get a free pass to use "natural" family planning.

M.

My priest has 8 and the priest at the parish closest to us has 7 under the age of 12. There are plenty of priests with large families, but I would agree that there is a problem with the majority of the priests in this country following the Church's teaching.

 

[Matrona]

Has anyone asked themselves about the sizes of the families of our married priests? I know one priest with 8 children and I know another who were only able to carry one pregnancy to term. But generally the priests that I know who are married have the American "norm" of 2 or 3 children. Maybe that is why there isn't strong teaching on this? I don't know.

Um, I don't think it's at all fair to assume that just because someone has two or three children that they are using or have used birth control. Much less to assume that in using it they would be doing so without the permission of their own spiritual father, or that they would go soft on the Church's teachings about contraception because of this.

Sorry, but this struck me as a really unfair and judgmental observation, and aiming it at priests makes it that much worse.

 

[Dorothea]

I guess there's a different view from the GOC. We talked about this in class, and at no time did my priest say any type of contraception was abortion. I also read in the Sacrament of Love, as well as the GO Archdiacese of America that contraception can be used for the health of the mother (if she cannot carry a baby to term without threat to her life), spacing children (according to the book). And it is a private issue between the married couple, according to the book, that the couple may share with their priest if they need spiritual advice.

My first pregnancy was ectopic, and unfortunately, in order to save my fallopian tube, and the baby wouldn't survive in it, but perish along with the rupturing of my tube, I had to get a couple shots to force a miscarriage. It was a horrible time for me, as it was my first time being pregnant, and I cried, even though my baby was only 8 weeks when it passed on. I think it's a bit of a sensitive subject and I think these types of circumstances warrant understanding.

 

[Kristos]

Maybe it just means they are gettin busy on fast days

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I know. I feel wrong saying it which is why I deleted an earlier message with a similar content. But on the other hand, if we are going to talk about the issue let's face the ideal versus the reality. We have this teaching that is supposed to be consistent but we are not really known for having "big, Orthodox families" like "big, Catholic families." I have friends who do not use contraception and unless there are fertility issues, they are having a baby every two years or so. Factoring in fasting perhaps that would stretch times of conception out more but not by a whole lot.

I am not judging priests as sinful or saying that they are indeed using contraception. I am looking at patterns on a large scale and saying that something doesn't add up. Why aren't Orthodox families bigger on average if the Church teaching is so clear and being communicated to the laity and seminarians? Even if people (lay and clergy) are going to their priests on this matter, there is a lot of economia being granted. I am not saying that is wrong. I am just saying well...that is a lot of economia. And if there is a lot of economia being granted, is it to the point of obliterating the discipline altogether?

Forgive me,
M.

 

[Matrona]

I know. I feel wrong saying it which is why I deleted an earlier message with a similar content. But on the other hand, if we are going to talk about the issue let's face the ideal versus the reality. We have this teaching that is supposed to be consistent but we are not really known for having "big, Orthodox families" like "big, Catholic families." I have friends who do not use contraception and unless there are fertility issues, they are having a baby every two years or so. Factoring in fasting perhaps that would stretch times of conception out more but not by a whole lot.

Actually, fasting is bound to make a huge difference. AFAIK, Roman Catholic couples don't have a fast from marital relations. If they do, though, it's probably based on their fasting calendar. Assuming that they fast from sex on Fridays throughout the year as well as Saturday nights and other nights before their "Holy Days of Obligation" (where they are supposed to go to mass and have communion if they can), they're still able to have it more often than an Orthodox couple. IIRC, Orthodox couples abstain on Wednesdays, Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays, as well as other nights before feast days and the whole duration of the four major fast periods. For most weeks, that leaves maybe three days that the couple can have sex... and then there's the fast periods.

For priests in particular, I would imagine that they must hold to the fast that much more strictly - a lay couple who gave in to temptation could merely quietly abstain from the chalice, but a priest following this discipline who didn't fast with his wife would not be able to celebrate liturgy; he would have to get a replacement or cancel the service.

Now, I'm not stupid enough to think that every single Orthodox couple is following the absolute strictest interpretation of the marital fast that I outlined above. But it should at least give an alternative explanation for why we don't have a reputation for huge families - centuries of repression, and a lack of similar cultural context that allowed RCs to get that reputation from their Protestant neighbors to begin with, notwithstanding.

The Church insists that we generally mind our own salvation; unless we are spiritual fathers ourselves, it's not really our business how often other people are rolling in the hay or what they are using on themselves when they do.

 

[Philothei]

I know. I feel wrong saying it which is why I deleted an earlier message with a similar content. But on the other hand, if we are going to talk about the issue let's face the ideal versus the reality. We have this teaching that is supposed to be consistent but we are not really known for having "big, Orthodox families" like "big, Catholic families." I have friends who do not use contraception and unless there are fertility issues, they are having a baby every two years or so. Factoring in fasting perhaps that would stretch times of conception out more but not by a whole lot.

I am not judging priests as sinful or saying that they are indeed using contraception. I am looking at patterns on a large scale and saying that something doesn't add up. Why aren't Orthodox families bigger on average if the Church teaching is so clear and being communicated to the laity and seminarians? Even if people (lay and clergy) are going to their priests on this matter, there is a lot of economia being granted. I am not saying that is wrong. I am just saying well...that is a lot of economia. And if there is a lot of economia being granted, is it to the point of obliterating the discipline altogether?

Forgive me,
M.

I agree with you Monica we , in orthodox countries (I do not live in Greece anymore but... I am from there...) do not go for big families. The priests do encourage couples to have more children, but most people blame the ...economy... IMO the blame is legitamate for example we do have a catholic minority in Athens ... I know a few families and they too follow the general public of not having big families... I think the same would apply for other Catholic countries like Spain and Italy... What I am trying to say is that the social norms unfortunately have prevailed over what Christian ethics....

Also I agree that there is a lot of "economia" because judging from the afluency that exists in all countries... (the upper middle and upper classes) do not have more children... actually I see more ofter middle to low class people having more kids... What I am saying is that I can see for poorer families having less children.. ..but I do get judgmental when I see wealthy families having a couple of kids... that is where I agree that "economia" is missused and waisted... or rather were there is hypocricy.... Thank God I see that trend changing in Greece.. I see that lately people in the show biz in Greece are having more children... ... and it really makes me hopefull that the value system is changing too...


Also I would like to mention that "economia" does not only falls into the priest's juristiction... as it does with the laypeople as well... The priest cannot "decide" for their spiritual daughter/son... He/she has to make that decision.. it is a sensitive matter and very personal... Most of the times the priest is not even "allowed" to enter that sphere of the couple's procreation...and even if he does it is usually taken as an advice and it is not followed... By withdrawing communion the priest would propably would have to put a "cannon" (epitimion) for using contraception to at least half of his congregation... Just think of the impact that would make... The most I would agree would be that the responsibility for that issue would fall(at most) in half on the priest and half (at least) on the faithful....


God bless,
Philothei

 

[Reader Antonius]

KW


If you don't ask questions - you won't learn

BTW - do you know what Christos Anesti actually means ?

NOT to be answered by anyone else please

Yes.

Christ is Risen.

 

[Reader Antonius]

Thank you all for your responses!

I was pretty sure the Eastern Orthodox were against contraception as the EO priest who I talk alot with emphatically encourages his parishoners to look at NFP.

Again thanks.


And don't worry, I have many more questions!!!

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I was pretty sure the Eastern Orthodox were against contraception as the EO priest who I talk alot with emphatically encourages his parishoners to look at NFP.

NFP is contraception.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

The Church insists that we generally mind our own salvation; unless we are spiritual fathers ourselves, it's not really our business how often other people are rolling in the hay or what they are using on themselves when they do.

Well when my Orthodox friends mention contraception as if it is no big deal, they make it my business. And when I respond that the Church is against contraception and they act like I have sprouted a daisy from my head, they make it my business. All of this leads me to wonder why things are the way they are in regard to contraception.

Sure, the matter is ultimately personal. But we also know that there are no personal sins. If a person is commiting adultery, it affects the whole Body. If someone is abusing their child, it affects the whole body. If a husband is not loving his wife it affects the whole body. If contraception really is a sin to use in all but the most extreme cases where the health of the mother is at risk, that sin too affects the whole body.

Also, if this is a teaching that is not being communicated, is it not my responsibility to represent the Orthodox position in my teeny-tiny sphere of influence? And if the teachings of priests do not seem to match, on some level I have to think about that and perhaps even raise a question about it as I have here.

If nothing else, and keeping bedroom doors closed, I wonder why the teachings on this issue are not promoted. I have not seen one book on the Orthodox position on contraception. We are ambiguous at best in communicating it and the onus is on the couple or individual to ask about it. "Don't ask, don't tell?"

M.

 

[vanshan]

I think there are many staunch pro "family planning" women, even in the Church, so it's probably a very difficult thing for priests to address, but that's no excuse for failing to face this life or death issue head on.



Basil

 

[Philothei]

Like doing what??? Forbiting the chalice for 10-20 years.. until childbearing years are over? That was the common practice in our motherland country and the result... children were raised without going to church... because their parents did not teach children to recieve eucarist... and thus they ended up not going to church..That is how we have "unchurched" orthodox Christians in our respective countries... What do you all propose? any ideas?

 

[Matrona]

Well when my Orthodox friends mention contraception as if it is no big deal, they make it my business. And when I respond that the Church is against contraception and they act like I have sprouted a daisy from my head, they make it my business. All of this leads me to wonder why things are the way they are in regard to contraception.

I never said that you can't offer the truth when someone around you has been affected by ignorance or wrong information. But that's a long way from postulating that because most priests have two or three kids instead of twelve, they must be contracepting and therefore unwilling to forbid parishioners' contraception.

I don't know any priests with more than three kids myself, but it has been clear to me from the beginning that the Church doesn't approve of contraception except when circumstances warrant it and that some spiritual fathers don't approve of it at all. And yet I too have friends who have no clue what the Church thinks of it, as well as some who have no idea that some Orthodox commune every week instead of four times per year, or that you can get excommunicated for marrying outside the faith. I used to know people who were raised Orthodox and were baptized Orthodox as babies, yet they weren't chrismated or given communion until they were about eight years old (guess where that practice came from?). Being Orthodox doesn't mean you have all your theological or practical ducks in a row.

 

[Kristos]

There are opinions and there are correct opinions and there is the truth.

 

[Philothei]

I never said that you can't offer the truth when someone around you has been affected by ignorance or wrong information. But that's a long way from postulating that because most priests have two or three kids instead of twelve, they must be contracepting and therefore unwilling to forbid parishioners' contraception.

I don't know any priests with more than three kids myself, but it has been clear to me from the beginning that the Church doesn't approve of contraception except when circumstances warrant it and that some spiritual fathers don't approve of it at all. And yet I too have friends who have no clue what the Church thinks of it, as well as some who have no idea that some Orthodox commune every week instead of four times per year, or that you can get excommunicated for marrying outside the faith. I used to know people who were raised Orthodox and were baptized Orthodox as babies, yet they weren't chrismated or given communion until they were about eight years old (guess where that practice came from?). Being Orthodox doesn't mean you have all your theological or practical ducks in a row.

i know many priests in Greece that have over 8 kids and also here too... I already know 4 GOA priests who have over 8 kids...3 out of them are in my diocese. Mind you that some can have medical reasons for not be able to have more kids... Pastoral issues are of essence... more than just medical issues though there can be also emotional, pshychological and metal... The problem is not only to become parents of the physical sense but also be sane and sound parents mentally,physically etc....all factors play a role. Responsible procreation is a given God does wants us to multiply but using first of all our intellect and be responsible. Can a priest advice no birth control if there is abuse in a family? ....

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I never said that you can't offer the truth when someone around you has been affected by ignorance or wrong information. But that's a long way from postulating that because most priests have two or three kids instead of twelve, they must be contracepting and therefore unwilling to forbid parishioners' contraception.

Matrona, please be fair to me. That is not what I wrote. What I said was:

Has anyone asked themselves about the sizes of the families of our married priests? I know one priest with 8 children and I know another who were only able to carry one pregnancy to term. But generally the priests that I know who are married have the American "norm" of 2 or 3 children. Maybe that is why there isn't strong teaching on this? I don't know.

I offered a possible reason. I did not say

1) That priests with small families were in fact using contraception
2) That if they are using contraception, it is without economia and counsel from their confessor.

I asked a question. With respect, I think you are inferring more from my post than what was actually there.

M.

 

[Matrona]

Matrona, please be fair to me. That is not what I wrote. What I said was:

Has anyone asked themselves about the sizes of the families of our married priests? I know one priest with 8 children and I know another who were only able to carry one pregnancy to term. But generally the priests that I know who are married have the American "norm" of 2 or 3 children. Maybe that is why there isn't strong teaching on this? I don't know.

I offered a possible reason. I did not say

1) That priests with small families were in fact using contraception
2) That if they are using contraception, it is without economia and counsel from their confessor.

I asked a question. With respect, I think you are inferring more from my post than what was actually there.

If I'm "inferring more ... than what was actually there", where exactly were you planning to go with this question/possible explanation? What's the purpose of putting this out there?

 

[Philothei]

There are circumstances where you can use contraception.

1. The possible exception to the above affirmation of continuity of teaching is the view of the Orthodox Church on the issue of contraception. Because of the lack of a full understanding of the implications of the biology of reproduction, earlier writers tended to identify abortion with contraception. However, of late a new view has taken hold among Orthodox writers and thinkers on this topic, which permits the use of certain contraceptive practices within marriage for the purpose of spacing children, enhancing the expression of marital love, and protecting health.

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp

Here there is already information out there on the issue...Dorothea posted this^

 

[vanshan]

Whew, this gets heated and we all basically agree.

After having three children myself, I can see how someone may just not have more after that through simple exhaustion driven celibacy.

Basil