Continuing Revelation

[light upon light]

Clearly John the Baptist is the last of the prophets. Why should we expect anyone else?

What is the last book in your copy of the Bible? Who wrote it?

 

[pawnraider]

What is the last book in your copy of the Bible? Who wrote it?

The apostle John and not John the Baptist.

 

[smaneck]

The apostle John and not John the Baptist.

Hmmm. Seems like someone received a revelation after John the Baptist.

 

[pawnraider]

For a prophesy to be fulfilled, there has to be change.

Not necessarily. Matthew 5:17, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.”

What do you think Jesus was doing when He said, "Of old it hath been said" "but now I say unto you"?

Where does it say that?

Certainly prophecy provides the bridge, but it is often not sufficient. Most Jews did not see Jesus as fulfilling the prophecies and for good reason. I think those disciples who did did so as much because of Jesus' character as because of prophecy.

Interesting. So the disciples believed in Him because of His “character” and because He fulfilled prophecy. Nowhere does Scripture intimate that neither the disciples nor anyone else believed in Him because of His “character”. Scripture makes it clear that He is the Christ because He fulfilled prophecy and says absolutely nothing about “character” having any part in it. In fact it’s completely silent regarding the character issue.

Then you do believe revelation continued and the Bereans acceptance of Christ on the basis of scripture certainly does not disprove that.

Once again you’re putting words into my mouth. I was just pointing out your incorrect usage of the word “reveal” and you try and make it into something else.

Not what the passage says.

Well then what does it say?

Why would Jesus tell us to judge prophets by their fruits if there weren't going to be anymore?

Jesus Christ was using “fruits” by way of negative connotation. What you fail to understand is that when Jesus Christ was telling His audience that they would recognize false prophets “by their fruits” He was not insisting that it be used as a way to identify the good prophets, so to say, but as a way of identifying the false prophets. One needs to pay closer attention to the context.

 

[pawnraider]

Hmmm. Seems like someone received a revelation after John the Baptist.

He did indeed! What one needs to keep in mind is that the Apostle John was executing the office of an apostle which he was and not the office of a prophet which he was not. There is a difference.

 

[pawnraider]

Hmmm. Seems like someone received a revelation after John the Baptist.

He did indeed! What one needs to keep in mind is that the Apostle John was executing the office of an apostle which he was and not the office of a prophet which he was not. There is a difference.

 

[fatboys]

He did indeed! What one needs to keep in mind is that the Apostle John was executing the office of an apostle which he was and not the office of a prophet which he was not. There is a difference.

A prophet just doesn't give prophecies. He is a leader and administrator which each and every apostle does. But also receives revelation as well which may include prophecies which would make them prophets.

 

[smaneck]

Where does it say that?

Matthew 5:

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

<snip>

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Interesting. So the disciples believed in Him because of His “character” and because He fulfilled prophecy. Nowhere does Scripture intimate that neither the disciples nor anyone else believed in Him because of His “character”.

You realize that most of Jesus' disciples were illiterate fisherman? Only a few of them could even read the Tanakh.

Once again you’re putting words into my mouth. I was just pointing out your incorrect usage of the word “reveal” and you try and make it into something else.

Jesus Christ was using “fruits” by way of negative connotation.

Were that merely the case He would have had no reason to refer to good fruits. In fact, if He wanted to deny any further prophethood He would not have had to talk about fruits at all.

One needs to pay closer attention to the context.

Like you did when you completely ignored the verses that followed?

 

[smaneck]

He did indeed! What one needs to keep in mind is that the Apostle John was executing the office of an apostle which he was and not the office of a prophet which he was not. There is a difference.

According to 1 Corinthians 12 prophethood was an office within the church. The Mormons are right about this. But what they mean and what I mean by Prophethood is different.

 

[smaneck]

A prophet just doesn't give prophecies. He is a leader and administrator which each and every apostle does. But also receives revelation as well which may include prophecies which would make them prophets.

Administrators are separate office for Paul:

"Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues."

1 Corinithians 12

Note also, that prophets come after apostles in this hierarchy. Administrators are way down at the bottom.

 

[fatboys]

Administrators are separate office for Paul:

"Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, then healers, helpers, administrators, speakers in various kinds of tongues."

1 Corinithians 12

Note also, that prophets come after apostles in this hierarchy. Administrators are way down at the bottom.

Apostles are prophets.

 

[cloudyday2]

So getting back to the fruit, are there some examples of true Manifestations with good fruit and false Manifestations with bad fruit?

 

[smaneck]

Apostles are prophets.

Not according to Paul.

 

[smaneck]

So getting back to the fruit, are there some examples of true Manifestations with good fruit and false Manifestations with bad fruit?

There aren't really 'false Manifestations' since that that term is rather unique to Shi'ism and the Baha'i Faith. But I would consider Rev. Moon and Sai Baba II as examples of 'false prophets.' A true prophet doesn't get fat and rich.

 

[jackcv]

Uh, no. You asked her to name them, a completely inappropriate request.

Oh, I see how you could interpret my question that way, and I agree that it would be inappropriate.

However, that is not what I asked; only if she could. "...can you name...?"

Personally, if I wanted names, I would say "...give/tell/reveal to us the names..." However, I can understand where you are coming from.

 

[jackcv]

Uh, people in the Tanakh did not pray in Jesus' name. When I took the missionary lessons as a teenager one of the biggest things I objected to do was that they wanted me to pray for divine guidance, their way.

I think a Jewish or Hindu, Buddhist or Baha'i mother praying for Divine grace to care for a sick loved one or help a prodigal child come to himself is absolutely praying in the name of Jesus Christ.

What do you think that "in the name of Jesus Christ" means? What do you think the name of Jesus Christ is?

 

[jackcv]

Smaneck and Pawnraider's interchange reminds me of several I have had over the years. Taking scriptures out of context is such a common mistake (or, in some cases, tactic).

A question that I have finally learned to ask is "How can both of these scriptures possibly be true?" For example Acts 17:11 and 2:17, and John 16:13?

And James 1:5?

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.​

I ask Pawnraider and those who insist that God suddenly stopped communicating timely truths to his children: Where does He clearly state (and repeat at least once, preferably twice) that after 4,000 years He is changing his policy? Are we to believe that He merely hinted at such a reversal with ambiguities?

Do his children need His counsel less today than they did previously?

Has His love cooled? Has the Almighty gone to sleep? Has the Savior's promise failed that, "If ye, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"?

Matt 7:7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!​

And in Revelations 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.) 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Hear for one's self, from the mouth of God, what the spirit saith unto the churches.

This is the repeated, direct, clear position of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; of Peter, James, John and Paul. They and millions of God's humble children, know as we know that we live, that these commands and promises are in force today. I know it. We are grateful to know from personal experience that "the Spirit of truth...will guide [the faithful] into all the truth...and he will tell you what is yet to come."

 

[pawnraider]

Were that merely the case He would have had no reason to refer to good fruits. In fact, if He wanted to deny any further prophethood He would not have had to talk about fruits at all.

You're either missing the point or ignoring it. When Jesus Christ said that we would know the false prophets by their fruits He was not suggesting this as a way of recognizing prophets but as a way or recognizing false prophets. You've got things twisted around a bit.

 

[pawnraider]

Smaneck and Pawnraider's interchange reminds me of several I have had over the years. Taking scriptures out of context is such a common mistake (or, in some cases, tactic).

A question that I have finally learned to ask is "How can both of these scriptures possibly be true?" For example Acts 17:11 and 2:17, and John 16:13?

And James 1:5?

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.​

I ask Pawnraider and those who insist that God suddenly stopped communicating timely truths to his children: Where does He clearly state (and repeat at least once, preferably twice) that after 4,000 years He is changing his policy? Are we to believe that He merely hinted at such a reversal with ambiguities?

Do his children need His counsel less today than they did previously?

Has His love cooled? Has the Almighty gone to sleep? Has the Savior's promise failed that, "If ye, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"?

Matt 7:7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

9“Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!​

And in Revelations 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.) 22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Hear for one's self, from the mouth of God, what the spirit saith unto the churches.

This is the repeated, direct, clear position of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; of Peter, James, John and Paul. They and millions of God's humble children, know as we know that we live, that these commands and promises are in force today. I know it. We are grateful to know from personal experience that "the Spirit of truth...will guide [the faithful] into all the truth...and he will tell you what is yet to come."

The one thing that never fails to amaze me is how non-Christians think they know Christian theology and/or the Bible so much more than Christians themselves.

Another thing is how these new and relatively recent religions or faiths have no patristic authority whatsoever to support their theology.

 

[pawnraider]

I think a Jewish or Hindu, Buddhist or Baha'i mother praying for Divine grace to care for a sick loved one or help a prodigal child come to himself is absolutely praying in the name of Jesus Christ.

Not to be argumentative-but I'm sure that's how this will be taken as such-but there's absolutely no biblical support that little fantasy whatsoever.

What do you think that "in the name of Jesus Christ" means? What do you think the name of Jesus Christ is?

Why don't you tell us what you think it means?