Contemplation

[StevenMerten]

Actually, contemplative prayer is the deepest form of prayer, according to St Teresa of Avila.

St John of the Cross says that at our deepest center is where God is.

Reading Scripture and Praying Contemplatively with Scripture are very much different and the hidden mysteries of Scripture are revealed in contemplative prayer.

Jim

Hello Jim,

The Church seems to counter this in that private revelation through prayer, is subservient to public revelation through scriptures. I believe in the Blessed Mother's message of Fatima with all my heart. Sixty thousand people, believers and scoffers alike, witnessed the miracles of Fatima. Still the Church regards Fatima as private revelation and secondary to public revelation through scriptures.

 

[bmjackson]

Hi Jim

Although John and Theresa would not have access to the writings, they presumably knew the teaching of the via Triplex, purgation, illumination and union through contact with other contemplative, who were common at this time in history.

Sorry to hear your group disbanded. It must be supported more in the UK. I am very keen to discuss the teaching but the group l am in contact with do not seem to know a great deal about it though of course they seek union. Is this your position?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hello Jim,

The Church seems to counter this in that private revelation through prayer, is subservient to public revelation through scriptures. I believe in the Blessed Mother's message of Fatima with all my heart. Sixty thousand people, believers and scoffers alike, witnessed the miracles of Fatima. Still the Church regards Fatima as private revelation and secondary to public revelation through scriptures.

Contemplation is the deeper form of prayer over reading of Scripture.

Contemplation is a gift from God where the transforming graces of divine love are given to the individual.

This does not contradict Scripture, nor the teachings of the Church, but confirms them and reveals the deeper meanings in them.

A person who experiences these graces knows the letter of the law, but follows the spirit of the law, because that person has experienced God's love directly in their soul.



Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hi Jim

Although John and Theresa would not have access to the writings, they presumably knew the teaching of the via Triplex, purgation, illumination and union through contact with other contemplative, who were common at this time in history.

Sorry to hear your group disbanded. It must be supported more in the UK. I am very keen to discuss the teaching but the group l am in contact with do not seem to know a great deal about it though of course they seek union. Is this your position?

Contemplatives were not common among their time and both Teresa and John of the Cross were subjected to persecution, including the Inquisition because of what they were teaching.

What they taught came through their experience.

It's why the two are declared Doctors of the Church, although St Teresa was not given the title until the early 1970's, probably because she was a woman.

Jim

 

[bmjackson]

Hi Jim

I thought that there were a number of writings during the Mediaeval period on mysticism, but l have not done much reading myself though the via triplex has been taught from the start.

Now that is interesting what you said because the speaker at the retreat l attended said that it was regarding praxis that the persecutions began, particularly poverty, but you are saying that it was doctrine.

I understand from John X's teachings that he believed that union or perfection are for this life, and interpreted 1 Cor. 13.10 that way but the official teaching of the Church, is that the verse means seeing Jesus face to face after death. More enlightenment on this would be very welcome.

God bless
Brenda

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Hi Jim

I thought that there were a number of writings during the Mediaeval period on mysticism, but l have not done much reading myself though the via triplex has been taught from the start.

Now that is interesting what you said because the speaker at the retreat l attended said that it was regarding praxis that the persecutions began, particularly poverty, but you are saying that it was doctrine.

I understand from John X's teachings that he believed that union or perfection are for this life, and interpreted 1 Cor. 13.10 that way but the official teaching of the Church, is that the verse means seeing Jesus face to face after death. More enlightenment on this would be very welcome.

God bless
Brenda

St John of the Cross and Teresa were persecuted for what they were teaching, i.e. what we call Contemplation. However the two of them never use that term. Instead, divine union, higher prayer etc were the terms of they used.

St John of the Cross was placed under house arrest by his own religious order.

In fact, he wrote the Living Flame of Love, while in prison and committed it to memory, which he wrote after his release.

St Teresa had to appear before the Inquisition. Thankfully, one of the members of the Inquisition, was her confessor who had embraced her.


What's interesting in reading about their life and time, is that God gave them the gift of Contemplation, without their having access to mystical writings.

It shows me that the experience of Contemplative Prayer trumps all the books you can read about it.

What we read gives us and idea, but the experience of Christ in contemplation, is what does it all.

Jim

 

[bmjackson]

Yes absolutely Jim, the experiencing of infused contemplation or divine union is the most important thing, rather than just knowing the teaching, but we still do not know whether St John heard the teaching spoken about which l pressume he must have as it was written of especially during the Mediaeval period as l said, and must have been inspired to seek it for himself, but of course it is possible that he had not though as a theologian it must have been unlikely. But the important thing is that he received the gift and went on to write about it and help many.

I wonder what you make of the Church authorities who would not accept the teaching at the time but do now or maybe do not fully understand what he taught?

 

[RileyG]

I thought Contemplative prayer was just listening to God? Also, meditating on scripture? Will contemplative prayer help me with my prayer life?

Thanks...

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes absolutely Jim, the experiencing of infused contemplation or divine union is the most important thing, rather than just knowing the teaching, but we still do not know whether St John heard the teaching spoken about which l pressume he must have as it was written of especially during the Mediaeval period as l said, and must have been inspired to seek it for himself, but of course it is possible that he had not though as a theologian it must have been unlikely. But the important thing is that he received the gift and went on to write about it and help many.

I wonder what you make of the Church authorities who would not accept the teaching at the time but do now or maybe do not fully understand what he taught?

Well, first off this wasn't during the Midevil era of history, which ended in the 14th century. St John of the Cross and St Teresa were of the 16th century.

As I said, the classic books on spirituality were banned. If St John had access to them and use them for his own writings, it's not to my knowledge. What he wrote was purely based on his experience of contemplation.


Also, the Church authorities, especially in Spain, didn't accept their teachings to begin with, and it was largely due to the Reformation, and Heresies of their recent history that had them on guard.

However, even after their writings were accepted, they were generally kept within the confines of monasteries and convents.

Lay people were rarely taught methods of contemplative prayer.

Even today, many Catholics have no clue about contemplative practice and the spiritual writings of St John and St Teresa.

Some, will even argue that you should not practice contemplative prayer, for it's "New Age."

Anyway, in a OCDS group, you'll probably learn more about St Teresa and St John's teaching on prayer and contemplation, than the history of the time they lived in. Your community's spiritual assistant might get into the history a little, but it's really not the focus of OCDS formation.

Jim

 

[JohnSopar]

@SteveMerten You do understand that Google translates word for word, at best some interpretations. 'Gift of Tongues' takes much more practice that typing something into Google, unfortunately.

 

[ebia]

I was looking for more spirit less navel staring.

It took me a while to unravel that. The first three times I read it, I read it as:

I was looking for more spirit-less navel staring.

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

Contemplation is the deeper form of prayer over reading of Scripture.

Contemplation is a gift from God where the transforming graces of divine love are given to the individual.

This does not contradict Scripture, nor the teachings of the Church, but confirms them and reveals the deeper meanings in them.

A person who experiences these graces knows the letter of the law, but follows the spirit of the law, because that person has experienced God's love directly in their soul.



Jim

Jim I would be careful with those statements. The scripture is the "word of God" and it is the Holy Spirit that is our teacher.

These are the words of Christ Jesus:

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

The deepest form of prayer is focusing on Christ and resting in the spirit.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim I would be careful with those statements. The scripture is the "word of God" and it is the Holy Spirit that is our teacher.

These are the words of Christ Jesus:




The deepest form of prayer is focusing on Christ and resting in the spirit.

Reading Scripture anyone can do.


Praying contemplatively with Scripture, only one who is open to the Holy Spirit dwelling within can do.

St Teresa of Avila said that interior prayer, or what we often call contemplative prayer, is the deepest form of prayer and where God communicates with us best.


Jim

 

[eastcoast_bsc]

It took me a while to unravel that. The first three times I read it, I read it as:

I was looking for more spirit-less navel staring.

I wrote that after a 11 hour over night shift and having not slept for 24 hours. Glad you got my point.

 

[ebia]

It shouldn't need to be said, but:
Studying scripture and lecto divina contemplation of scripture are no an either-or.
The Jesuits, for instance, are big on both of those.

 

[bmjackson]

Well, first off this wasn't during the Midevil era of history, which ended in the 14th century. St John of the Cross and St Teresa were of the 16th century.

As I said, the classic books on spirituality were banned. If St John had access to them and use them for his own writings, it's not to my knowledge. What he wrote was purely based on his experience of contemplation.


Also, the Church authorities, especially in Spain, didn't accept their teachings to begin with, and it was largely due to the Reformation, and Heresies of their recent history that had them on guard.

However, even after their writings were accepted, they were generally kept within the confines of monasteries and convents.

Lay people were rarely taught methods of contemplative prayer.

Even today, many Catholics have no clue about contemplative practice and the spiritual writings of St John and St Teresa.

Some, will even argue that you should not practice contemplative prayer, for it's "New Age."

Anyway, in a OCDS group, you'll probably learn more about St Teresa and St John's teaching on prayer and contemplation, than the history of the time they lived in. Your community's spiritual assistant might get into the history a little, but it's really not the focus of OCDS formation.

Jim

Jim, St John was not too far away from the end of the 14th C. The Wesley revivals are still discussed today. Even if St John never got to see for example, the works of Julian of Norwich (ca. 8 November 1342 – ca. 1416) he no doubt heard about them. But I am not saying that this is where his knowledge came from. He obviously underwent the same spiritual development as all mystics. I think we can safely say though, that church authorities in all sections of the church, have always attempted to keep this teaching under wraps and not just during Reformation times.

At the OCDS retreat last week, the Father speaking, concentrated on giving the background history of St John and St Theresa, but I wanted to know about their teaching and their understanding of contemplation as I have noticed that there seems to be a variation of views, some thinking it means meditation as in New Ageism, but my understanding is that it is divine union which cannot be achieved by man as St John says, and with no amount of prayer, but is a gift from God though He is more likely to give it if we devote ourselves to seeking Him.

I understood the OCDS was formed for the sake of seeking divine union but I have been surprised to find that the group I attended are not very knowledgeable about the history and details of the teaching itself. rather than just concentrating on methods of prayer, especially when St John stressed that union is not attained through prayer (though assisted by it).

 

[JimR-OCDS]

bmjackson

Jim, St John was not too far away from the end of the 14th C.

If you don't consider 200 years as being not too far, well yes.

FYI, the 1500's St John and St Teresa's era, was the 16th Century.

But a lot took place in their century. The Reformation, the Spanish Inquisition, the final years of the most corrupt Pope in Church History, Alexander VI. Henry VIII, etc.

Of course information in those days traveled slow, but it was the world the Church had to deal with at the time.

Even if St John never got to see for example, the works of Julian of Norwich (ca. 8 November 1342 – ca. 1416) he no doubt heard about them. But I am not saying that this is where his knowledge came from. He obviously underwent the same spiritual development as all mystics. I think we can safely say though, that church authorities in all sections of the church, have always attempted to keep this teaching under wraps and not just during Reformation times.

True until recently as Vatican II and when Pope Paul VI asked the leaders of contemplative orders, i.e. Benedictines, Trappists, etc, to begin dialogue with masters of Eastern religions, to learn what was drawing young Catholics over to them.

Contemplative Prayer was part of the Catholic traditions going back to the mystics of the desert in the 4th Century.

Because of Pope Paul VI, request, contemplative prayer was opened to the laity as never before.

At the OCDS retreat last week, the Father speaking, concentrated on giving the background history of St John and St Theresa, but I wanted to know about their teaching and their understanding of contemplation as I have noticed that there seems to be a variation of views, some thinking it means meditation as in New Ageism, but my understanding is that it is divine union which cannot be achieved by man as St John says, and with no amount of prayer, but is a gift from God though He is more likely to give it if we devote ourselves to seeking Him.

Correct.

There is "Infused Contemplation," which comes from God, which nothing the soul did to bring about.

Then there is "Acquired Contemplation." where souls through methods of quiet interior prayer, open themselves to God, who gives them the gift of contemplation.

No technique or method gives the soul Contemplation. Only God does that. But we open ourselves to God, who dwells within in order to be ready for his grace.

I understood the OCDS was formed for the sake of seeking divine union but I have been surprised to find that the group I attended are not very knowledgeable about the history and details of the teaching itself. rather than just concentrating on methods of prayer, especially when St John stressed that union is not attained through prayer (though assisted by it).

Many OCDS groups are in this state.

St John stressed that divine union doesn't come through a method of prayer in of itself, but from God alone.

However, a method of prayer is used to prepare ourselves for Contemplation.

Also, St John expressed the importance of growing in the virtues, love, hope and charity.

Remember, Carmelite Spirituality is only one chrism, there are others that also have their truths.

Cistercians, Franciscans, Benedictines, have their own rules of life with regards to prayer.

All have the desire for Divine Union, just different rules of life that they follow in the process, so to speak.


Jim

 

[bmjackson]

True until recently as Vatican II and when Pope Paul VI asked the leaders of contemplative orders, i.e. Benedictines, Trappists, etc, to begin dialogue with masters of Eastern religions, to learn what was drawing young Catholics over to them.

Contemplative Prayer was part of the Catholic traditions going back to the mystics of the desert in the 4th Century.

Because of Pope Paul VI, request, contemplative prayer was opened to the laity as never before.

It's a pity that contemplative prayer or divine union, which is a much better description and less likely to be confused with other things, is not properly understood and taught mainstream then young Catholics would not be drawn to Eastern religions, which are a shadow of the real thing, and will lead them astray I think.

No technique or method gives the soul Contemplation. Only God does that. But we open ourselves to God, who dwells within in order to be ready for his grace.

Yes.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It's a pity that contemplative prayer or divine union, which is a much better description and less likely to be confused with other things, is not properly understood and taught mainstream then young Catholics would not be drawn to Eastern religions, which are a shadow of the real thing, and will lead them astray I think.



Yes.

FYI, Divine Union, is something that is rare and only certain souls are given this gift.

Young Catholics aren't drawn toward Eastern Religions as they were in the late 60's and early 70's.

Few are drawn to religion at all.

Some are actually drawn toward Catholicism, but often for the unique aspects which they have delusions over. Many want Latin Masses and a Catholicism of the past which is anti-culture of today.

Some, come with true desire to grow closer to Jesus Christ, they are our hope for the future.

Others, are drawn toward spirituality which is more New Age, which takes from all religions, including Catholicism, attractive aspects.

Young people today are apathetic toward religion it seems. They are the most difficult to convert.



Jim

 

[bmjackson]

FYI, Divine Union, is something that is rare and only certain souls are given this gift.


Jim

Yes l know this. Only a few will consent to the great suffering involved to get there. Quite a few get to Illumination, like at times of revival, but Union as you say is rare, as St John tells us. Do you think that anyone today is in Union?