Consistent Conservatism

[RealDealNeverstop]

The terms Conservative and Liberal are sometimes cross-sectioned, can mean "amount" of use, and also appropriateness of use. An example:

Granting the Right to Vote to womyn was not inherently "Liberal" because it was not expanding government, but only granting equal rights as deemed by the Constitution. It was an appropriate use of government to cease the de facto practice of keeping womyn silenced at the Voting booths.

Here are some issues seen as Consistent Conservatism:

1 Marriage. It is inappropriate for government to be involved in the most intimate and personal decision made by two adults. It is a Liberal use of government both by expansion and by intrusion on private lives. If the government is going to be involved, it should afford all Laws equally, regardless of gender. Furthermore, if it is illegal to have sex with a 13 year old then there should be no laws making this permissible through marriage. Pedophilia with a Marriage License is State Approved pedophilia.

2. Abortion. It is inappropriate for the government to make such a private decision involving womyn's bodies, thus Roe v Wade was a correct decision. It is a Liberal use of government both by expansion and intrusion. Likewise, it should be consistent and not force men to pay for child support. If men cannot have a decision if the pregnancy is carried to full term the men cannot be held financially nor legally responsible for a decision they are not allowed to make. Prior to intercourse, if it should happen, there is no mystery of which party may become pregnant.

3. War. If our Troops are sent to War it should be done only, and if only, there has been a formal Declaration of War. We have Troops fighting and dying who are not even US Citizens. If someone has taken the Pledge to defend our Nation has put their lives on the line then the least we can do is make them Citizens prior to asking them to die for our nation. If we send them to War make sure they are given the best possible medical care possible, before, during, and after. The Freedom they provide doesn't stop after they leave active duty so it is our duty to not abandon them and their Sacrifices. In addition, if one can fight, kill, and die for our Nation at 18 years of age then one should also be able to have a beer or any other legal adult beverage. Can it get any more "adult" than giving one's life for one's Nation?

4. Welfare. This should be limited strictly to Citizens who are giving a demonstrable effort in return. Welfare to Corporations is absolutely absurd and the recent "Car Czar" Cabinet position created by Obama shows just how fast we are driving in the wrong direction. Corporations are careless because they know they do not have to be accountable. Just like irresponsible Citizens, if we send the message we will bail them out regardless then we have given them a license to not regard personal accountability.

5. Education. If public schools are going to be funded by taxes then the schools should be funded by head count and not zipcode count. This perpetuates a system of socio-economic segregation that punishes kids who happen to be born to parents who are in a lower tax bracket.

7. Healthcare. The recent SCHIP is nothing less than an attack on consumer segregation. It is good to recognize kids should be provided for healthcare because again, we should not punish children by accident of birth. Socialized medicine is a national nightmare; completely private medicine is a nightmare for a nation that ignores economic realities. We don't need to provide free healthcare for all but we should not ignore providing healthcare for those who cannot afford it; especially with some of the ridiculous associated costs.

8. The government should not punish companies who sell milk cheaper than their competitors. De-regulation is what helps create competition.

9. Lobbying. It should be illegal for any government official to receive any funds, even indirectly, from private corporations that seek to influence legislation. The idea of America is the pursuit of equality and this affords a financial ruling class and that's antithetical to the Constitution. We may never reach a perfect harmony of equality but that is an insufficient reason for not seeking such an ideal national paradise.


10. Political Office. Citizenship is the cooperative effort of seeking full fruition of the Constitution and this requires activism by every American. No Citizen should be allowed to be in office for no more than 8 years on both the State and Federal levels. This limitation would encourage more people to run for office and prevent the type of oligarchy we've been living under for oh so too many years.


11. Holidays. The government should not recognize any religious holiday, period. The State does not need an official "State Religion" to promote one religion over all others.



Of course there are several other issues but I hope this expresses the essence of Consistent Conservatism. Feel free to introduce any issue to examine it's consistency.

 

[Ringo84]

Here's another one:

12. Separation of Church and State. If you're going to rant and rave about "nanny government", then you should also rant and rave against efforts to build a "nanny government" by allowing it to establish religion and micromanage Americans' religious beliefs.
Ringo

 

[MerchantofMenace]

11. Holidays. The government should not recognize any religious holiday, period. The State does not need an official "State Religion" to promote one religion over all others.

Heaven forbid those overworked government employees not get time off that they deserve.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Here's another one:

12. Separation of Church and State. If you're going to rant and rave about "nanny government", then you should also rant and rave against efforts to build a "nanny government" by allowing it to establish religion and micromanage Americans' religious beliefs.
Ringo

Churches rightfully receive a non-profit status unless they engage in political preaching. If they want to preach elections then they should forfeit the tax exempt status.
C & S separation is important for several reasons and the past decade emphasizes this beyond doubt.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Heaven forbid those overworked government employees not get time off that they deserve.

That response makes absolutely no sense since there was no claim saying they shouldn't have time off. There wasn't even a single implication all Fed Hols should be eliminated.

 

[Billnew]

1 Marriage. IMO marraige is what society decides. changing of the definition should be done by legislation, with a majority of vote, and be a state issue. Not Federal.

2. Abortion. The ending of pregnancy should be a last resort and limited to the viability of the baby if removed from the womb. Thus restrictions on how far into the pregnancy should be determined and set in law. And yes, I believe to be conservative on this issue is to keep goverment involvement to the minimum, thus abortion should be legal up to 20weeks, but not farther.

3. War. agree. Military service- citizenship, able to drink, able to own firearms, able to vote, but I must correct you, all this can happen when you are 17.(I should know, I was falling down drunk on my 18th birthday in Tech school.)

4. Welfare. I agree. Welfare should be a safety net not a hammock. And severely restricted, if ever in the corprate world.

5. Education.
do you mean all money for schools go into one big fund, and from that all schools get equal amount per student?

7. Healthcare. a very tough tight rope to walk. Goverment run means waste restrictions, and rationing medical care. While private medical is overwhelmed by people unable to pay, and being burdened with insurance
companys.(both protecting the Dr and helping the Patients.) And lawyers waiting to pounce when a human makes a mistake. All drives costs up, drives Doctors out of specialtys, causing shortages in areas.

8. The government
Keeping the ground level, but allowing free enterprise to have control.

9. Lobbying. same for foriegn powers. Get the money out of politics, so that people wants and needs are the primary reason politicans vote for or against a bill.


10. Political Office.
I wouldn't have a problem with the 8 yr term limit being rechargeable. Meaning they move back and live in the area for 4 or 8 yrs they could run for office again(except for President). They get away from the power and see what living among the comon people means again. Unlike now, they live in Washington and visit the peons that elect them.


11. Holidays. Christmas isn't a religious holiday any more so I don't see any problem here. Christmas is the holiday of greed, nothing more.


Seperation of church and State: Is a goverment control, not a personal or group control. Thus Goverment cannot promote or punish any church or religion. People can freely worship as they wish, and freely discuss religion and politics without fear of loosing tax exempt status. Because no other freedom is limited by goverment. Because we don't earn enough to pay taxes doesn't mean we can't vote, or speak freely. Speaking freely is guaranteed in the first ammendment. Loosing of public funding or tax exempt status is just intimidation to keep people from speaking freely.
This is not limited by religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.
Any group or organization should be abel to speak freely without fear of Goverment strongarming them because their religion is opposed to a candidate.

 

[Ringo84]

Seperation of church and State: Is a goverment control, not a personal or group control. Thus Goverment cannot promote or punish any church or religion. People can freely worship as they wish, and freely discuss religion and politics without fear of loosing tax exempt status. Because no other freedom is limited by goverment. Because we don't earn enough to pay taxes doesn't mean we can't vote, or speak freely. Speaking freely is guaranteed in the first ammendment. Loosing of public funding or tax exempt status is just intimidation to keep people from speaking freely.
This is not limited by religion, be it Christian, Muslim, Hindu, etc.
Any group or organization should be abel to speak freely without fear of Goverment strongarming them because their religion is opposed to a candidate.

I'm not sure I understand your point here. Could you elaborate?
Ringo

 

[Billnew]

Threatening a groups tax exempt status because goverment doesn't like what they are saying about a politician or a political issue.
Free speech is free. Just because they speak of politics doesn't mean they should loose funding.
I didsagreed with both Bush's on this issue. They threatened withholding of Federal funding if patients were told about abortion or abortion clinics.
Freedom of speech should not be limited by monetary handouts.
Many religous leaders took on this threat a few months back, preaching about the politicians, their positives or negitives in the views of Christian followers.
Clearly in violation of the tax exempt status boundrys.
But we believe freedom of speech can't be limited by goverment.
IN other words, Congress(goverment) can't restrict religion, nor can it promote a religion. But religion can promote a candidate that shares its religious beliefs.
We'll see if the goverment wants to fight this out. If they don't, they will see more of it next election.

 

[Ringo84]

But religion can promote a candidate that shares its religious beliefs.

No, I disagree. The problem isn't that individual pastors endorse candidates but that religious organizations endorse candidates, which sends the wrong message: that perhaps church and state are merged, since a religious group is endorsing a governmental candidate for office.
Ringo

 

[praying]

1 Marriage. IMO marraige is what society decides.

What is the key that decides if society should decide something versus the legislature or the courts?

 

[Billnew]

What is the key that decides if society should decide something versus the legislature or the courts?

If the law was made to hurt a people, race, or gender, to keep them from getting ahead, the law was not passed in good faith and should be removed by the Court.
If laws set up in long tradition, need to be changed, then society(legislators) need to change it with the input from society. Laws that were made in a different time and different values, need to have modern ideas and values update the laws. change that evolves, rather then forced change.
(reminder: I believe marriage to be what society makes it, so society can change what marriage or unions can be.) Judges don't listen to people, they look at laws and decide on issues without considering others. Judges should limit themselves to only the most outrageous laws to dictate change. Lesser changes should always be in law makers hands.

 

[jamesrwright3]

Abortion-consevatism protects the right of the individual and a fetus is an individual.

 

[Ringo84]

Here's another one:

13. Torture. I find it interesting that the same conservatives who are always lecturing us about absolute morality are the same ones who abandon those morals when it becomes convenient. Suddenly, "some things are always wrong" becomes "torture isn't wrong if we do it to terrorists" or "waterboarding isn't torture because we say so". Now who are the ones who subscribe to situation ethics?

I'm not trying to turn this thread into a debate about the Separation of Church and State or waterboarding. I just think that if you're going to be consistent - whether you're liberal, conservative, or indifferent - you have to be consistent with the ideas you support.
Ringo

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Abortion-consevatism protects the right of the individual and a fetus is an individual.

A fetus is part of the womyn's body and as such not an individual in any legal sense of the term. Can a pregnant womyn Vote twice in the same election?

 

[jamesrwright3]

A fetus is part of the womyn's body and as such not an individual in any legal sense of the term. Can a pregnant womyn Vote twice in the same election?

Yes it is. It will develop into an full grown individual if allowed to live. Minors can't vote in elections. I guess we should be able to bump off minors if they become inconvenient?

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Here's another one:

13. Torture. I find it interesting that the same conservatives who are always lecturing us about absolute morality are the same ones who abandon those morals when it becomes convenient. Suddenly, "some things are always wrong" becomes "torture isn't wrong if we do it to terrorists" or "waterboarding isn't torture because we say so". Now who are the ones who subscribe to situation ethics?

I'm not trying to turn this thread into a debate about the Separation of Church and State or waterboarding. I just think that if you're going to be consistent - whether you're liberal, conservative, or indifferent - you have to be consistent with the ideas you support.
Ringo

Good points and consistency checks are what helps reveal the veracity of any political philosophy. Respectfully disagreeing with each other is generally only possible when the people involved present self respect for their own claims as well as for others.'

The issue of Gitmo reveals a huge load of problems for the camps that espouse the "spreading freedom" rhetoric because they advocate pre-mature convictions, indefinite imprisonment without a conviction, and it helps reveal the core of their Liberalism: The Military said the individuals caught and imprisoned are guilty so it must be true. Furthermore, the support of the US running secret prisons around the globe shows an affinity for anything outside of the Constitution and is anti-thetical to our nation and the sacrifices so many have made and are making. I have refused to let Bush supporters hold a monopoly over the term "Conservative" because they may hijack their own political principles at their convenience but they cannot hijack other Americans.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Yes it is. It will develop into an full grown individual if allowed to live. Minors can't vote in elections. I guess we should be able to bump off minors if they become inconvenient?

A minor is not inside of and an inseparable part of the female body, so no, we can't off minors and I didn't suggest we should because they can't Vote or become inconvenient. So once again, can a pregnant womyn Vote twice in the same election? (Strawman de ja vu)

 

[Gracchus]

Churches rightfully receive a non-profit status unless they engage in political preaching.

Churches should be taxed like any other business.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

If the law was made to hurt a people, race, or gender, to keep them from getting ahead, the law was not passed in good faith and should be removed by the Court.
If laws set up in long tradition, need to be changed, then society(legislators) need to change it with the input from society. Laws that were made in a different time and different values, need to have modern ideas and values update the laws. change that evolves, rather then forced change.
(reminder: I believe marriage to be what society makes it, so society can change what marriage or unions can be.) Judges don't listen to people, they look at laws and decide on issues without considering others. Judges should limit themselves to only the most outrageous laws to dictate change. Lesser changes should always be in law makers hands.

I think you may have proven why gay marriage should be recognized by your own standards. The Fed marriage laws passed under Clinton afford over a thousand laws to hetero couples that are specifically denied to gay couples. The kicker? It still reinforced State approved pedophilia because if a 40 year old man marries a 13 year old girl in Texas they are afforded all Fed marriage laws and every State in the union will recognize the State approved pedophilia-union but gay couples are specifically denied those laws that prevent them from moving foward.

Your "society should decide" argument is apparently derived from current social convenience. Let's say the majority of society said marriage is defined as "Two people between the ages of 40 and 42, with brown hair, and under 3 feet tall." Don't dismiss this on the basis of it not being plausible as I fully admit it is not likely to happen but the point of the example is rule of the majority is by itself insufficient reason or evidence for any law to be extrapolated. The appeal to "Tradition" fails on several levels because you can think of any social practice that at one time was deemed "correct" by that society's standards and see it is not measured today by majority rule but rather by facts, reasoning, and a respect for fellow citizens. Furthermore, that position advocates groups using the government to hold others hostage to "their" definition of marriage.

Bottom line:

Laws that prevent equal rights based on gender are un-American. If the government is going to intrude in our bedrooms and intimate life long decisions it must do so with a binding oath to equality or get evicted.

(I do appreciate your full response to the OP and will respond to that post as well. Thank you.)

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Churches should be taxed like any other business.

There are many non-religious based non-profit orgs so to provide them with a tax-exempt status while not affording it to churches would be to punish and segregate religion from the rest of society.