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JJWhite

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Woodrow, I've been Muslim for almost 37 years and spent almost every summer growing up in Egypt. I feel really disappointed in Raymond Ibrahim for presenting this in this manner. He should really know better.

I had to look this 'Abd al-Ra'uf character up right now. That is one of the weirdest things I've seen in a long time. His position is not scholarly despite any religious education he had. According to some blogs online (so who knows if it's true or not), the man went from rags to riches after writing his crazy book... seems like saying weird stuff is good for the pocketbook.
 
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Rationalt

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Please don't waste my time. Sheikh from Al-azhar?. really?.

I have a lot of knowledge on the subject. We could compare CV's, and while it is possible you know more about this than I do, it is highly improbable.

You know next to nothing.Get me some quranic or relevent islamic literature quotes or what you say is just nonsense.



Not really. Islam like most religion has a spectrum of activities, but as purely religious sanction the treatment of women is no different from Christianity or Judaism.

Like i said; stop wasting time with your funny quotes.



Or Paistan, but I am sure my experience with the Islamic jurists who I have studied or who are personal friends who are accomplished jurists are naturally trumped by a guy on the internet.

Get me quotes of some reputed jurists like in Al-azhar or sfu.


I'm also sure all of the people in Indonesia and Pakistan were simply ignorant of their faith.


That is the opinion in Arab land.Obviously these south asia muslim nations were corrupted by Indians.



Concubines were permitted, but the issue is complicated.

It is quite simple.Enjoy BOOTY but fear Allah.That is quran, btw.It was never
complicated with with muslims.

That BOOTY explicitly involves women captured in Raids or purchase.


Yes, my decade+ of study is naturally inferior to random internet musings. Have you actually been to the ME?

Your study means shi*t unless you back up your droll with Quran, hadiths or authentic tafsirs

Btw, i gave a link with arabic islam q&a from sheiks.The Link quotes extensively from quran and hadiths.

I am yet to see any muslim refuting what i wrote.
 
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toLiJC

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Well, certainly you can't expect someone who doesn't believe that to agree with you, right?

with all respect, the purpose in the faith is to be provided salvation to all people/souls for eternal life, not (some) variance

Blessings
 
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toLiJC

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The purpose of what faith? Yours? Islam? I don't follow what you are saying here.

we meant the main cause why the only true God has made/gave the faith from the very beginning, or as Jesus Christ shows that God is the Father of all people and thus every human being is our brother, so it's normal the clerics/worshippers/believers to work for the eternal salvation of all people/souls, because all humans have one (most first) Father - the only true God, and each of them is (a) brother of any other of them, that is why St. John has said:

1 John 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.",

1 John 4:20-21 "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

Blessings
 
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toLiJC

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One must believe there is cause to worry about "eternal salvation of all souls" in order to follow that logic. If one does not, as I do not, there is no need to fret upon it.

we meant the complete salvation and eternal life of (the) true Lord God for all people/souls, because He is the only source of complete salvation and eternal life to all human/soul beings, and so is His Will, namely all people/souls to be saved for eternal life, even here, for those of them that still living in this world

Matthew 18:11-13 "the Son of man is come(ie comes) to save that which was lost. How think ye? if a man(viz. at least a good man) have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.",

Luke 9:56 "For the Son of man is not come(ie never comes) to destroy men's lives(ie the lives of human beings), but(ie but He always comes only in order) to save them.",

John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world(ie not to condemn the humankind); but that the world through him might be saved(ie but in order the humankind to be saved by Him).",

1 Timothy 4:10 "we trust in the living(ie in the all-beneficial) God, who is the Saviour of all men(ie of all humans), specially of those that believe(ie as first of the righteous clerics/believers).",

1 Timothy 2:3-6 "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men(ie all humans) to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth(ie and to become righteous). For there is one God, and one mediator(or: and one Lord) between God and men, the man(ie the soul being) Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Blessings
 
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TG123

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Can you find me this story on CNN? ABC? BBC? Associated Press? Haaretz? Al Jazeera? Agence Frace Press?

Any credible news site with international news?
 
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JJWhite

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Can you find me this story on CNN? ABC? BBC? Associated Press? Haaretz? Al Jazeera? Agence Frace Press?

Any credible news site with international news?

Oh.. and btw... one of my friends just came back from Egypt a few weeks ago... she said on one day (before Morsi was elected) she was watching CNN and AlJazeera and then she drove by Tahrir Square right after that... the news channels made it seem as if it was live, but the image on the screen had tons of people and the actual location had just a few. Makes a person wonder.
 
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Christianmilitaryofficer

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Please don't waste my time. Sheikh from Al-azhar?. really?.

That you attempt to insult Islam without the slightest understanding of the faith is actually a problem, but I think your inability to recognize this deficit is the bigger problem. You clearly do not know that Sheik is a title in Islam, particularly at Al-Azhar.

"The title sheikh is especially borne by heads of religious orders, heads of colleges, such as Al-Azhar University in Cairo, chiefs of tribes, and headmen of villages and of separate quarters of towns. It is also applied to learned men, especially members of the class of ulamas (theologians), and has been applied to anyone who has memorized the whole Qur’ān, however young he might be."

You know next to nothing.Get me some quranic or relevent islamic literature quotes or what you say is just nonsense.

Ok, you could try Revival and Reform in Islam, or Islam and Modernity both by Fazlur Rahman. Rahman postulates a regression to the period of a Quranic injunction, and then an application of that principle in the modern era. Very interesting theologian with an expert grasp of Islamic Jurisprudence.

But we both know you're not going to actually read Rahman.

Like i said; stop wasting time with your funny quotes.

Who is the one wasting time speaking about nothing here?


Get me quotes of some reputed jurists like in Al-azhar or sfu.

SFU? Interesting acronym. Perhaps you're extensive learning is failing you?

That is the opinion in Arab land.Obviously these south asia muslim nations were corrupted by Indians.

Wow...you're not even mildly familiar with the history of Islam or Muslims are you?

It is quite simple.Enjoy BOOTY but fear Allah.That is quran, btw.It was never
complicated with with muslims.

That BOOTY explicitly involves women captured in Raids or purchase.

That's kind of an immature statement/use of wording, don't you think?

Your study means shi*t unless you back up your droll with Quran, hadiths or authentic tafsirs

Btw, i gave a link with arabic islam q&a from sheiks.The Link quotes extensively from quran and hadiths.

I am yet to see any muslim refuting what i wrote.

Your comments are not really based on what would be considered a full knowledge of the subject matter, and you seem to use some rather...salty...language. Not exactly a resounding endorsement of the academic basis of your argumentation.
 
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Christianmilitaryofficer

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Can you find me this story on CNN? ABC? BBC? Associated Press? Haaretz? Al Jazeera? Agence Frace Press?

Any credible news site with international news?

Probably because it is not a credible story? There are laws in Egypt concerning how marriages are performed, and some guy putting on a show is about as technically valid as street theater.
 
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TG123

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Off-topic... but, TG, why is Jesus's label as son of God understood differently by Christians than the other people's label as son of God in the Bible?

JJWhite, that is an awesome question.

Christians believe God made Mary miraculously conceive. We believe that the Son of God means Jesus has the same nature as the Father, as both the Father and Jesus are one God.

Other people in the Bible who are called sons of God are people who are following God or people who God created. No other Biblical son of God claimed that he will judge the world, or claimed that he is the lord of the Sabbath, or claimed that those who have seen him have seen the Father, or that he and the Father are one. No other person in the Bible accepted worship from others. I don't know if of any other person God the Father said from the sky "this is my son, in whom I am well pleased". No other person called God their Father. No one else who lived after Moses said "before Moses was, I am", or existed before the world was created. John 1 says that Jesus is God. Phillipians 2:6 says Jesus is in His very nature God.

What does verse 6:101 mean? It seems that Muhammad is suggesting that it is wrong to suggest God has a son, when He doesn't have a wife or consort, is that correct?



Sahih International
[He is] Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing.

Muhsin Khan
He is the Originator of the heavens and the earth. How can He have children when He has no wife? He created all things and He is the All-Knower of everything.

Pickthall
The Originator of the heavens and the earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort, when He created all things and is Aware of all things?

Yusuf Ali
To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

Shakir
Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth! How could He have a son when He has no consort, and He (Himself) created everything, and He is the Knower of all things.

Dr. Ghali
The Ever-Innovating of the heavens and the earth-however does He have a child, and He has no female companion, and He created everything, and He is Ever-Knowing of everything?
 
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Christianmilitaryofficer

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For the record, your modern Protestant interpretation of these verses would have been completely alien to actual 1st century Christianity. Just saying.
 
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TG123

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CNN and some other news outlets also showed massive crowds of Iraqis celebrating the US troops that rolled into Baghdad in 2003... later photos of the whole square showed the place almost deserted aside from a few dozen (maybe a hundred or so) cheering Iraqis hitting Saddam's statues with their shoes... all I can say is that camera angles and the use of media can be very interesting.
 
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TG123

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For the record, your modern Protestant interpretation of these verses would have been completely alien to actual 1st century Christianity. Just saying.
Please show me examples from Scripture to prove me wrong. Does John 1 not say the Word was with God and the Word was God? Were other people in the Bible worshiped? Did they say that those who have seen them have seen the Father? Did they say they will judge the nations?

Should not only God be worshiped? Will not only He judge nations? Who but God can be in nature God, and who could you look at but God to see God?

Please show me where the Bible disproves what I have said.
 
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TG123

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Probably because it is not a credible story? There are laws in Egypt concerning how marriages are performed, and some guy putting on a show is about as technically valid as street theater.
Shukran. Danke. Dziekuje. Djakuji. Merci. Gracias. Thank you. Arigato.

For pointing out the obvious. Hopefully more people will read this and see this 'news story' for the pile of #2 that it really is. There are enough good reasons for Christians and Muslims to disagree and debate without adding in propaganda that is most likely false to begin with.
 
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