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consider this (rapture)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Wildfire, Jan 15, 2003.

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  1. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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       REV 4:1 After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, "Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this."(NIV)

    Wildfire have you considered this verse.  Notice it says "come up here" too.  I've heard some say this is the place of the rapture.  I dunno! [​IMG]
     
  2. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

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    Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.
     
  3. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    Lets let our evil twins Jerri and Postoe battle this one out!

     [​IMG]
     
  4. Wildfire

    Wildfire Member

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    Hi posttrib; chapter ten of Rev. shows the arrival of the angel of seventh trumpet, which prepares the two witnesses for their testimony in chapter eleven:

    Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    John is then told to take the little book (which could be this book of prophecy) and eat it. He is told he would prophesy ((again)) before many peoples, and nations and tongues and kings.
    Chapter 11: Now is the arrival of the two witnesses; they are ready to give their testimony.

    Blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

    Why are those servants blessed? Is it because whosoever reads and keeps the words of this book may bear witnesses of God through the little book that John was told to eat;
    (?)

    Now Rev. chapter 7 shows us the four angels preparing to seal the foreheads of Gods servants. and this angel cried with a loud voice: and it is a multitude that no man could count, who come <out of> the great tribulation.
    This corresponds with Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from one end of heaven to the other.
    This is said to happen immediately <after> the tribulation of those days. I see what you mean.
    Mark supports this also in 13:24-27.

    Perhaps during the seven year tribulation, the two witnesses give their testimony for 3&1/2 years>> and the beast makes war with them>> overcomes and kills them during the last 3&1/2 years>> which would complete the seven year tribulation.

    Interesting, as always.

    Wildfire
     
  5. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Revelation 4:1 is not talking about rapture. It is talking about John's vision, thjat he saw the angel asked to him, "come up hither". So, he was went up in his vision as he was filled with the Spirit while he received the revelation. The angel asked to only ONE person - John, not the Church.

    "Come Hither" find three times in Rev. 4:1; 17:1; & 21:9. All of these verses have do nothing with rapture or Second Advent. These are talking about the angel asked John to come here, and to show him the things.

    Also, John does not saying Jesus descend out of heaven - Rev. 4:1. What Jesus is doing - Rev. 4:2? Jesus sits!!

    The context of Revelation chapter 4 and 5 are talking about the activity around the throne in the heaven. It is happening right now.

    The rapture of Rev. 4:1 was added by pretribulationism doctrine- men-making doctrine. Not what John was really saying on it. John tells us, that he saw ther angel asked him to come up here, John went up to heaven in the vision. That's all. Do nothing with the Church and the Rapture.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  6. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    DeafPosttrib this is your theory.&nbsp; Some people have the theory that Rev. 4:1 is the rapture.&nbsp;&nbsp;Neither side can prove their theory.&nbsp; But, I still&nbsp;like you! ;) &nbsp;
     
  7. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    Well, actually not quite.&nbsp; You see, if&nbsp;we read Revelation 4:1 as literal and the rest of 4 as literal then they have nothing to prove, because it's all literal.&nbsp; But if someone wants to say that this one passage isn't literal like the rest of Revelation 4 and there is no mention in the writing as such then the burden of proof falls on the one trying to re-interpret what it says.&nbsp; Since there is no other scripture that backs up that whenever the angel says something to John it is also meaning it will also happen to every Christian in the future just like it happened to John, we really just can't take someone's word for it.

    I, too, read Tim Lehaye's book Terri and have seen all the movies and preachings that support this Rev 4:1 view, so I'm not just ignorant to the teaching.&nbsp; I agree that it sounds good, but so does being able to sin because Jesus paid for sins,&nbsp;but I&nbsp;have a hard time accepting&nbsp;that either (as did Paul).
     
  8. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    JesusServant is the following verse to be taken literally or spiritually. I believe verses can have a literal meaning and a spiritual meaning.&nbsp; They were literally eating bread, but they weren't literally nawing on Jesus.
    &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
    &nbsp;&nbsp; MT 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    JesusServant you are certainly ahead of me in knowing Tim Lehaye since I have never read any of his books or seen any of the movies to my knowledge.&nbsp; I didn't even know he supported Rev 4:1 as being the rapture. Dunno--Hope he is right!

    I think it is a bit of a stretch to compare this theory with sinning because Jesus paid for our sins. Don't get your point there.
     
  9. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    :sigh:&nbsp; I'm not saying that the Bible isn't to be interpreted differently in different areas, but there is almost always a rhyme or reason to it.&nbsp; And never should you say scripture 1 is to be taken in a completely different light then all the following scriptures without it being stated in the scriptures to do such.&nbsp; For example, Revelation 12 tells us that it is all symbolic in the beginning.&nbsp; That "a great SIGN appeared" to let us know it isn't to all be taken literally, it's&nbsp;describing actual events through symbolism.&nbsp;

    Lehaye summed up what modern pre-tribbers believe.&nbsp; Get his book, Revelation Unveiled, and you'll see what you've been reading on websites and forums about the pre-trib theories, it matches up with a lot of the Late Great Planet Earth book as well.&nbsp; It's a good read&nbsp;for understanding all the "why's" and the "how's" of the pre-trib beliefs, so if you're a pre-tribber then it's a must read.&nbsp; Of course, it may make you study more and rethink the pretrib view like it did me, because&nbsp;a lot of it doesn't add up, like the Revelation 4:1 view.

    BTW, I was just making an example, not comparing sinning and the theory of the rapture in Rev 4:1.&nbsp; What is pleasing to the flesh and popular to the masses is almost never what the Bible says or encourages.
     
  10. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    JesusServant I can't say if I am pre-trib, mid-trib, or what.&nbsp; I know I am not post-trib, but the rest is unclear.&nbsp; I just read theories and then let God work with them in me.&nbsp; He hasn't made it clear to me yet which one is right!&nbsp;

    My posting of the Rev 4:1 theory doesn't mean I think it is correct--just means it is a theory to consider. ;)
     
  11. JesusServant

    JesusServant do not stray too far left nor right but CENTER

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    I'm somewhat in the same boat.&nbsp; I just know what theories don't make sense, I haven't been able to piece together everything just yet myself.&nbsp; I know there is way too much scripture that goes against a pre-trib rapture, but I'm still putting the pieces together for exactly how to view the end times.&nbsp; I'm about to be in the "who cares, I'll just leave it to God" boat and never read Revelation again :sorry:

    Anyhoot, I suggest, if you are searching (even though I don't agree with it, it does represent the pre-trib view well) for theories to check out "Revelation Unveiled" by Tim Lehaye.&nbsp; Over a million people have read it and it's why (along with the left behind series that he and another author [forget his name] wrote) the pre-trib rapture is so popular right now.&nbsp; God bless!
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    I do not intepreting Rev. 4:1 by use my own opinion, or theory. I understand very clear 100% agree what Rev. 4:1 is talking about.

    How many people, the angel asks to come up hither?

    Did you see Jesus descend out of heaven - Rev. 4:1?

    Notice, "come hither" find three times in Rev. 4:1; 17:1; and 21:9. These are talking about the angel asked John to come here ans to show him the things. These have do nothing with rapture.

    John does not saying Jesus descend out of heaven in Rev. 4:1, neither he saying it is Second Advent. He was talking about his vision, that he was called by the nagle, to come up to heaven, and to showed him to see the things in the heaven, and the future things.

    Rev. 4:1 have do nothing with rapture.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!
     
  13. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    So if it's not your own opinion or theory whose is it?&nbsp; :p
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Terri,

    Does John saying Jesus descend out of the heaven - Rev. 4:1??

    Does John saying, he saw Second Advent of Rev. 4:1??

    Does John saying, he saw resurrection of Rev. 4:1??

    Does John saying, he saw gathering of the saints of Rev. 4:1??
     
  15. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

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    John probably didn't say anything about a lot of things--that doesn't mean they didn't happen!!&nbsp; :p

    The word Church is never&nbsp;used after this point!! ;)
     
  16. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    Wildfire, I disagree with your interpretation for two reasons.

    First, the purpose of the Beast is to make war on Christians.&nbsp; Your rapture occurs before the mark of the beast.&nbsp; There wouldn't be a point to it if there were no Christians left.&nbsp;&nbsp;Look at Revelation 13:7 and&nbsp;Revelation 14 which occur after your rapture of the two Witnesses.&nbsp; I think the two witnesses may be exactly what they sound like.&nbsp; Two witnesses (people).&nbsp; Or perhaps... Doesn't it say that the dead in Christ shall rise first?&nbsp; Why mention it as "first" if the dead in Christ don't rise a significant time period before the non-dead?&nbsp; Say the two witnesses represent dead Christians and they are resurrected and raptured at that time.&nbsp; So when are those who live raptured?&nbsp; Keep reading...

    Look at Revelation 14:6-7.&nbsp; Notice how the angel has the Gosple to proclaim to all of the earth?&nbsp; Do you remember the scripture that says that the end will come when the Gospel is preached to all the&nbsp;nations?&nbsp; That's it right there.&nbsp; So immediately after this event is...

    ...the rapture.&nbsp; Revelation 14:14-16 seems to describe the rapture in clear terms.&nbsp; The son of man is sitting on a cloud with a sickle and an angel instructs him that the time has come to reap.&nbsp; So he reaps&nbsp;the harvest.&nbsp; What could that be if not the rapture (harvest) of Christians?

    Immediately following this event are the seven bowls of God's wrath which is also key.&nbsp; When the rapture is described by Jesus in Luke 17, he places it immediately before the "day of the lord" (which is a metaphorical term for God's final wrath upon the earth).&nbsp; Notice how he compares it to Noah's flood in which Noah (Christians) was spared and the very same day that the flood occured.&nbsp; Just as Lot left Sodom on the day it was destroyed.&nbsp; The rapture will occur immediately before the destruction period in Revelation.

    I'm doing a pretty poor job of presenting the Pre-wrath position (slightly after mid tribulation), but it's presented excellently in "The Rapture Question Answered, by Robert Van Kampen."

    I haven't finished reading it yet, so I'm not sure if he associates the harvest I mentioned with the rapture, but it seems fairly clear to me.

    I'm a bit fuzzy on prophecy and end times, but I've always been suspicious of the idea that the rapture occurs long before the tribulation.&nbsp; It doesn't help that the authors of the "Left Behind" series (who hold to the pretrib position) didn't exactly inspire confidence in their position.&nbsp; Those books&nbsp;are boring&nbsp;:)&nbsp; Their analysis of end times in their "Are We Living In the End Times." isn't much better.&nbsp; I think you'll be impressed By Kampen's approach to scripture if you find the time to secure a copy and read it.

    And if you want to read some great end times fiction (though I don't necessarily agree with the timing of everything), check out James Beausigner's "Christ Clone Trilogy".&nbsp; Unfortunately, Warner Books just picked up the trilogy, so you can't buy it anymore!&nbsp; You can&nbsp;buy the first of the three in 4 days, and the other two are coming out in the middle and end of the year.

    Oh well.&nbsp; Guess I have collectors items now.&nbsp; I can't wait for all of the heathens to read the trilogy though.&nbsp; The author and warner do a fantastic job of making it look like an unchristian series :)&nbsp; Tricked me into reading it (which is exactly why I came back to Christ; though much of the foundation work was laid a few years before).

    Anyway, I'm rambling.

     
  17. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    You are incorrect.&nbsp; We've been in the last days since Pentecost.&nbsp; Peter said so himself (beginning of Acts).&nbsp; The Spirit has been outpoured since Jesus left.&nbsp; People do prophecy today, and heal and everything else.

    Mmm.&nbsp; Good eye.&nbsp; They still may represent individual people.&nbsp; And the churches may not represent physical churches, but spiritual churches.&nbsp; And if they are physical, there may also be people among the "bad" churches who are not unsaved at all.

    Confusing Revelation is.

    Notice that the letters to the 7 churches (Smyrna I believe) says that God will protect them from the time of wrath?&nbsp; Again, I think that is THE wrath (the 7 bowls) of God, not the wrath of Satan.

    bleh.

    The Rapture is definitely not pretrib though.
     
  18. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    When you say "Holy Spirit" what do you mean?&nbsp; Catholics say they have the Holy Spirit and I don't believe that for a moment.
     
  19. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    That may be an interjection to the reader of Revelation not a command to the Christians remaining on earth.&nbsp; Though at any point after the rapture, there is the possibility of backslidden Christians and even non-Christians to turn to God.
     
  20. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

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    True because neither of those two views are correct :D

    If Revelation wasn't useful, it wouldn't be in teh Bible Terri.&nbsp; I believe that it can be sorted out, but no one will figure it out by reading a few verses here or there.&nbsp; There are GOBS of scriptural material in both testaments about the end of the world and the period most often described in the Revelation.&nbsp; It's there for a reason.
     
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