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consider this (rapture)

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Wildfire, Jan 15, 2003.

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  1. Terri

    Terri Senior Veteran

    +562
    Baptist
    Married
      :eek: Wow Rize you sure exude arrogance. I think you may be a sign of the end times! ;)

    Please don't assume what I think is relevant and how many verses I read. :p

     
     
  2. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    +13
    Atheist
    US-Libertarian
    I know, I am arrogant sometimes :(

    Bad habit I suppose, sorry.

    I'm just as susceptible to the wrong interpretation as anyone else of course.  Still, I must believe that there is a way to make sense of prophecy and end times material or else it shouldn't be there.  A lot of little tricks need to be pulled to put the rapture well before the tribulation and I'm just not buying them.  Jesus told us that we are going to be persecuted by the world.  I don't understand why the church has bought into this pretribulation rapture to this extent.  I feel like we're being set up to be knocked down if you know what I mean.
     
  3. Rize

    Rize Well-Known Member

    +13
    Atheist
    US-Libertarian
    This forum is dead.
     
  4. postrib

    postrib Well-Known Member

    508
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    Christian
    I'm glad we may agree that the 24 elders in Revelation 4-5 aren't the church, but aren't we Christians mentioned throughout Revelation (6:11, 7:14, 9:4, 12:17, 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 15:2, 16:15, 18:4, 20:4), and aren't all Christians part of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5)?

    Note that the word "church" isn't used in Chapters 19-21 of Revelation, or anywhere in the books of 2 Timothy, Titus, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, and Jude. Do some then believe that these chapters and books don't refer to the church?

    If we look at all the myriad descriptions of Christians in all the NT books, how many of these descriptions don't use the specific word "church," but do use other key words and phrases such as "in the Lord," "the faith of Jesus," "saints," and "brethren," the same key words and phrases used to describe those of us Christians who will face the coming tribulation?

    In your view, why should those "in the Lord" in Revelation 14:13 not be considered to be the church, but those "in the Lord" in Romans 16:11-13, 1 Corinthians 4:17, Ephesians 2:21, Colossians 4:7, and 1 Thessalonians 3:8 should be?

    Aren't the Christians "in the Lord" in the tribulation New Covenant saints, after the cross and after Pentecost, and not Old Covenant saints?

    In your view, why should those who have "the faith of Jesus" in Revelation 14:12 not be considered to be the church, but those who have "the faith of Jesus" in Romans 3:22, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 3:22, Philippians 3:9, and James 2:1 should be?

    In your view, why should the "saints" in Revelation 13:10 and Revelation 14:12 not be considered to be the church, but the "saints" in Revelation 19:8, 1 Corinthians 14:33, Ephesians 5:3, Colossians 1:12, Jude 3 should be?

    Does it say the church ends in Revelation 6 and then resumes again in Revelation 19?

    In your view, why should the "brethren" in Revelation 6:11 not be considered to be the church, but the "brethren" in Revelation 19:10, Revelation 22:9, Romans 1:13, 1 Corinthians 1:10, and 1 Thessalonians 4:13 should be?
     
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