Consider Paul and You Will Get Understanding

[AVBunyan]

Paul says: 2 Tim 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Here are just a few tings that your will straightened out by considering all tings by first.
You will get understanding in:

1. The mystery of Christ - Romans

2. The mystery of the church, which is his body - Ephesians

3. Justification – Romans and Ephesians

4. Eternal security – Romans, Ephesians, Colossians

5. Water baptism - Ephesians

6. The mystery of how the church gets out of here – Ephesians and Colossians

7. Local church – Ephesians, I & II Timothy

8. Right division – II Timothy

9. The mysteries – Romans-Colossians

10. The purpose of scripture – II Tim. 3:16

11. The purpose of the body of Christ – Ephesians

12. The purpose of civil government – Rom. 13

13. The order within the family unit – Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3

14. Forgiveness – Ephesians

15. Prayer – Philippians 4 – I Timothy

16. Faithfulness – Ephesians

17. Israel – Romans 9-11

18. The offices of the local church – I Timothy and Titus

19. Money – I Timothy

20. Witnessing – II Corinthians – Romans

21. The gap in Genesis 1– I Cor. 4:3-6

Now, look at the above subjects – you wonder why modern Christianity is in such disarray? The saints read Paul but they don’t consider the scriptures in light of what Paul was given by the Lord. One of the most damning things in modern Christianity was to put the “words of Christ” in red for this has led many to believe that the words of Paul are secondary and to some not even scripture.

You know what I believe people don’t consider Paul?

1. You just can’t read Paul – you have to study and who wants to study these days – they want it quick and easy.

2. Paul kicks all those sacred cows of Christianity.

3. Paul does away with man-centered Christianity.

4. Paul seeks to put people’s minds on heavenly things when saints’ minds are obsessed with earthly things and like to stay there.

5. People strips away all your gifts and makes you personally accountable to live the Christian life without any excuses i.e. “I don’t have this gift so I can’t do this.”

For those of you who will take me to task and say that I don't read or believe all the scriptures then all I can say to you is hold your ears while I laugh.

Ya’ll have a nice day now!

 

[@@Paul@@]

It's always easier to get through the corn maze if you start at the finish and work backwards!!

----------It's called "present truth" for a reason.

Thanks for the post AV.

 

[BronxBriar]

Hello AV,

Maybe I am just trying to get a handle on how to properly define and understand the workings biblical inspiration.

I understand that Paul's 'words' (and I accept this is what God wants us to hear and live by) are canonized so to speak but those 'words in red' you speak about are the words of Jesus the Christ as recalled by the Gospel writers and Paul's words are the words of God but expressed in the way he could articulate. Of course if one believes that Paul was like a dictation machine that God spoke into then I can see your point.
I am not sure if that's what you mean though. Maybe I mean to ask in reference to your post is this: Are we as Christians to hold in equal esteem the words of Paul and those 'words in red'?

Thanks for a great post.

Regards.

 

[BT]

You know what I believe people don’t consider Paul?

1. You just can’t read Paul – you have to study and who wants to study these days – they want it quick and easy.

2. Paul kicks all those sacred cows of Christianity.

3. Paul does away with man-centered Christianity.

4. Paul seeks to put people’s minds on heavenly things when saints’ minds are obsessed with earthly things and like to stay there.

5. People strips away all your gifts and makes you personally accountable to live the Christian life without any excuses i.e. “I don’t have this gift so I can’t do this.”

For those of you who will take me to task and say that I don't read or believe all the scriptures then all I can say to you is hold your ears while I laugh.

Ya’ll have a nice day now!

Did not Christ do the same?

 

[AVBunyan]

Hello AV,

Maybe I am just trying to get a handle on how to properly define and understand the workings biblical inspiration.

I understand that Paul's 'words' (and I accept this is what God wants us to hear and live by) are canonized so to speak but those 'words in red' you speak about are the words of Jesus the Christ as recalled by the Gospel writers and Paul's words are the words of God but expressed in the way he could articulate. Of course if one believes that Paul was like a dictation machine that God spoke into then I can see your point.
I am not sure if that's what you mean though. Maybe I mean to ask in reference to your post is this: Are we as Christians to hold in equal esteem the words of Paul and those 'words in red'?

Thanks for a great post.

Regards.

Good question Bronx - I believe the following verse as I'm sure you do:
2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This means all the words in the Bible are all God's words not just the words in red (which man made red). What has been done by making Christ's words red is hinting that only Christ's words are the "real" words. What they do then is make Paul's words "Paul's" only. The rejectors are hinting that Paul's words take a back seat to Christ's words because Paul i sjust a man while Christ is God - sounds pious but wrong thinking.

You are right - Paul's words came from God just like "Jesus' words" came from Himself - God.

Paul got his revelation directly from Christ - therefore his words are just as authoritative - and let's stir it up a bit shall we! Paul's are more authoritative in a sense that it is his instructions we follow first and foremost. What that means is that since Paul got his "words and instructions" from Christ then essentially we are getting the"instructions from Christ" by way of Paul.

Let's get to the heart of the matter and upset some folks:

God said in His word, (repsectfully paraphrasing here)...
"You follow the instructions I gave to Paul, not my Son's earthly ministry's instructions, if you want to know what doctrine is for you today ! When you understand Paul's then you will understand Peter's, James', John's and my dear Son's instructions and precepts!"

I trust that clears it up a bit. Follow Paul as he followed Christ.

Just look up these phrases in Pual's epistles:
"to me"
"my gospel"
"unto me"
Tell me if God didn't choose Paul to be real special for us today. Peter, James, and John didn't get for us what Paul got for us.

May God bless

 

[AVBunyan]

It's always easier to get through the corn maze if you start at the finish and work backwards!!

Hey, I like that - I wish I'd thought of that myself!! Great quote!!!

Thanks

 

[BT]

Paul got his revelation directly from Christ - therefore his words are just as authoritative - and let's stir it up a bit shall we! Paul's are more authoritative in a sense that it is his instructions we follow first and foremost. What that means is that since Paul got his "words and instructions" from Christ then essentially we are getting the"instructions from Christ" by way of Paul.

Let's get to the heart of the matter and upset some folks:

God said in His word, (repsectfully paraphrasing here)...
"You follow the instructions I gave to Paul, not my Son's earthly ministry's instructions, if you want to know what doctrine is for you today ! When you understand Paul's then you will understand Peter's, James', John's and my dear Son's instructions and precepts!"

I trust that clears it up a bit. Follow Paul as he followed Christ.

Just look up these phrases in Pual's epistles:
"to me"
"my gospel"
"unto me"
Tell me if God didn't choose Paul to be real special for us today. Peter, James, and John didn't get for us what Paul got for us.

May God bless

I'm following you AV but now I think you lost me. Are you saying that Paul's epistles are more important for us today than the things that Christ said in the Gospels and the epistles of Peter, John, James, Jude etc.?
Is that what you are saying? Sorry but you seem to be coming from two angles at once. First you say that we are getting the Instructions from Christ through Paul, then you say that you need to understand Paul to understand the rest of them including Jesus. Is that what you mean err what?

BTW - Peter, James, John, Jude, etc were as inspired as Paul. They simply had different parts of the text to write. Paul should not be elevated above any of them (which I don't think you are saying). We, in this dispensation have the final revelation and the closed canon. It all stands together, there is not one portion above the rest.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I'm following you AV but now I think you lost me. Are you saying that Paul's epistles are more important for us today than the things that Christ said in the Gospels and the epistles of Peter, John, James, Jude etc.?
Is that what you are saying? Sorry but you seem to be coming from two angles at once. First you say that we are getting the Instructions from Christ through Paul, then you say that you need to understand Paul to understand the rest of them including Jesus. Is that what you mean err what?

BTW - Peter, James, John, Jude, etc were as inspired as Paul. They simply had different parts of the text to write. Paul should not be elevated above any of them (which I don't think you are saying). We, in this dispensation have the final revelation and the closed canon. It all stands together, there is not one portion above the rest.

Not to anwser for AV but.... I have an opinion... Go figure.

Question #1: Is the Old Testament important today?
........#1a: Was is directly writen to you?

I think we all know this verse.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

.....And i think we all agree not every piece of inspired scripture is profitable for doctrine today.

Take the idea of "present truth". God spoke to Abraham, told him to leave his family and GO. God has also spoke to Noah and Moses... Did God always have the same message? Did God always ask everyone to do the exact same thing?

........That would be a big fat NO.

Lets compare "Peter, James, John AND Jude" to Paul. Should we, being gentiles in this age of grace who are part of the "fellowship of the mystery", listen to God through His message sent via Peter? Was "present truth" always the same for Gentiles and Israel?

Peter was specifically sent to Israel, just like Christ was... Paul was sent to the gentiles... Are we to think the message of all three is 100% truth for today?

I don't think AV is saying we must understand Paul to understand Christ... But we must surely understand Paul's message so we do not misapply the message of Christ (and Peter for that matter) to us today. Which of course leads to contradicting scripture or even, misapplication.

Example… Water Baptism; necessary for our salvation today or not?

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

 

[AVBunyan]

I'm following you AV but now I think you lost me.

1. I'm following you AV but now I think you lost me.

I can understand that – I lose myself quite often these days!!!

2. Are you saying that Paul's epistles are more important for us today than the things that Christ said in the Gospels and the epistles of Peter, John, James, Jude etc.?

More important in the sense that are our instructions on how to live in this age.

Ex. Matt 24 – I’m not concerned about going through tribulation.

Ex. Matt. 23 – they were told to observe what the Pharisees taught (law) – we both knew we are not to adhere to the law today.

Ex. Matt. 6 and forgiveness – they were told in order to be forgiven they must forgive others.

We are told we are forgiven in Eph. 1:7 and Col. 1:14 so our command to forgive is out of Eph. 4:32

3. Is that what you are saying? Sorry but you seem to be coming from two angles at once. First you say that we are getting the Instructions from Christ through Paul, then you say that you need to understand Paul to understand the rest of them including Jesus. Is that what you mean err what?

Christ revealed to Paul the body of Christ truth for us in this age.

We understand Christ as the resurrected Saviour and head of the body of Christ from Paul not James, John, Luke, etc.

4. BTW - Peter, James, John, Jude, etc were as inspired as Paul. They simply had different parts of the text to write.

Amen and more amens – they were the apostles to the circumcism – Paul to the uncircumcism.

5. Paul should not be elevated above any of them (which I don't think you are saying). We, in this dispensation have the final revelation and the closed canon. It all stands together; there is not one portion above the rest.

Not more scripture than others but more important for us for knowing what doctrines are for us to live by today.

Example – what is more important and applicable to you today – Leviticus or Ephesians?

Both important but for different people and different times.

God bless

 

[BT]

Not to anwser for AV but.... I have an opinion... Go figure.

Question #1: Is the Old Testament important today?
........#1a: Was is directly writen to you?



I think we all know this verse.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:​

.....And i think we all agree not every piece of inspired scripture is profitable for doctrine today.

I don't agree with that. The OT is important today, but it wasn't written for any one person. It was however written with me in mind.

Take the idea of "present truth". God spoke to Abraham, told him to leave his family and GO. God has also spoke to Noah and Moses... Did God always have the same message? Did God always ask everyone to do the exact same thing?

........That would be a big fat NO.

Welcome to dispensationalism. You, my friend are a dispensationalist. As am I. God did not have the same thing for everyone because His revelation was progressive. As time moved along, more and new things were added. It is still all useful.

Lets compare "Peter, James, John AND Jude" to Paul. Should we, being gentiles in this age of grace who are part of the "fellowship of the mystery", listen to God through His message sent via Peter? Was "present truth" always the same for Gentiles and Israel?

Peter was specifically sent to Israel, just like Christ was... Paul was sent to the gentiles... Are we to think the message of all three is 100% truth for today?

Yes we should think that the messages of all three are 100% truth for today. If not in letter then in spirit. If you find something that may refer to Israel specifically, you can still learn from it. There is no obselete doctrine.

I don't think AV is saying we must understand Paul to understand Christ... But we must surely understand Paul's message so we do not misapply the message of Christ (and Peter for that matter) to us today. Which of course leads to contradicting scripture or even, misapplication.



Example… Water Baptism; necessary for our salvation today or not?

Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.​

Yes we must study and understand. Actually it is the Holy Spirit who gives illumination, but we have a part to play too. I don't know if I'm splitting hairs or not but there is no separation between Christ's teachings (the 4 gospels) and the epistles. The gospels deal with illumination AND APPLICATION, the epistles deal with illumination AND APPLICATION.

The verse from Mark does not imply that baptism is necessary. It says that he that believeth not shall be damned. Not he that is not baptized.

 

[BT]

1. I'm following you AV but now I think you lost me.

I can understand that – I lose myself quite often these days!!!

Amen!

2. Are you saying that Paul's epistles are more important for us today than the things that Christ said in the Gospels and the epistles of Peter, John, James, Jude etc.?

More important in the sense that are our instructions on how to live in this age.

Ex. Matt 24 – I’m not concerned about going through tribulation.

Ex. Matt. 23 – they were told to observe what the Pharisees taught (law) – we both knew we are not to adhere to the law today.

Ex. Matt. 6 and forgiveness – they were told in order to be forgiven they must forgive others.

We are told we are forgiven in Eph. 1:7 and Col. 1:14 so our command to forgive is out of Eph. 4:32

Paul's epistles do deal with the application of the Gospel and the ordinances of the church. But the Gospels have an equal, if not more, amount of application in them.

Ex. 1 - Matt.24 - You personally may not go through the tribulation, but someone will. This passage will be very important to them, as it is to me. How can we escape if we don't know what's coming, and the means of escape. How many theologians, pastors, and evangelists today feel that this is not important? Perish the thought (I always wanted to say that ).

Ex. 2 - Matt.23 - Frankly I'm shocked at this one. There is enough applicable teaching in this chapter for you to spend years preaching. I think mabey you've missed his point. Besides, do you not know that there are still Pharisees today? They are called Rabbis. There are Pharisees in the Christian and so called "Christian" bodies today. I tell you honestly that this is a critical portion of scripture for today and tomorrow and everyday.

Ex. 3 - Matt.6 - Another shocker. This whole chapter has to do with living a Christian life. Sincerity in prayer, in giving, the model prayer is here (a model of how we ought to pray), fasting (which is important today), faith (lay not up treasures). Yikes man this chapter is loaded with application for today.

3. Is that what you are saying? Sorry but you seem to be coming from two angles at once. First you say that we are getting the Instructions from Christ through Paul, then you say that you need to understand Paul to understand the rest of them including Jesus. Is that what you mean err what?

Christ revealed to Paul the body of Christ truth for us in this age.

True, though I would append and say that "Christ revealed to Paul some of the body of Christ truth for us in this age."

We understand Christ as the resurrected Saviour and head of the body of Christ from Paul not James, John, Luke, etc.

I would say that we understand Christ as the resurrected Saviour from Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

I would say that Christ is revealed as the head of the body from Luke as well (In Acts).

4. BTW - Peter, James, John, Jude, etc were as inspired as Paul. They simply had different parts of the text to write.

Amen and more amens – they were the apostles to the circumcism – Paul to the uncircumcism.

My personal belief is that Paul is the writer of Hebrews, which is to the circumsised. Paul also refers several times to his "kinsmen in the flesh". Paul is the one who wrote that Salvation is to the Jew first (Romans 1:16)

5. Paul should not be elevated above any of them (which I don't think you are saying). We, in this dispensation have the final revelation and the closed canon. It all stands together; there is not one portion above the rest.

Not more scripture than others but more important for us for knowing what doctrines are for us to live by today.

Example – what is more important and applicable to you today – Leviticus or Ephesians?

Both important but for different people and different times.

God bless

The Gospel teaches many many many doctrines that are applicable today, at least as many as are in the epistles. Perhaps more.

Leviticus is in the OT (but is still applicable, I talked to someone here last week about an issue they were having. I used Leviticus to clear it up..)

I am a dispensationalist but I don't believe that the revelation as it progressed did away with the old (completely). Even in the example of the Law which is not applicable today in ceremony. Is it not applicable in heart? I think it very much is.

A good discussion though.

 

[AVBunyan]

Amen!

Paul's epistles do deal with the application of the Gospel and the ordinances of the church. But the Gospels have an equal, if not more, amount of application in them.

A good discussion though.

Please - I think I've not presented my poitn clearly. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness - I understand this.

What I am saying is that all scripture is FOR us but not necesarrily TO us. I read all the Bible and get application, teaching, instruction, edification, rebuke, comfort, etc. from all the scriptures. Leviticus teaches me God is serious about order in worship!

At my church right now (we are strong right division) my preacher is in John in the Sunday AM service - on Sunday PM he is in I Samual. Tuesday night he is focsuing in on prayer with Matt.6 as the text!

I'm in Isaiah right now in my daily Bible reading. I just got finished teaching Lamentations, Job, Isaiah in our Sunday 6PM teaching service.

Brother I read it all and get what God has for me from all. My favorite verse is Matt. 11:28!!!

But...but...I go to Paul first to find out what is doctrine for me today and go from there. I go to Paul to understand Christ's position today. I go to the gospels to see how Christ dealt with people and to see his divine nature show grace to the lowly and also see him scorch the proud Pharisees.

Brother - I read it all but.....but...I believe we have to go to Paul to know our forgiveness, our position, our duties, our doctrine, etc. Once I understand who I am in Christ then I understand the other sections of the Bible much more and can get much more out of them with much more understanding because I started with Paul's explanation.

Now, here is the real issue - there is great application all through the scirptures but if you do not understand Paul or start with Paul first then people start turning the "application" they are finding elsewhere into doctrine for us today aand then confusionreigns - just like what is going on here at this forum and others and churches all across America and other places!!!!

Do you understand me more now I hope

May God bless

 

[Blackhawk]

AV,

Thank you for the intersting post. However if I am understanding you correctly then I do not agree with you. I think it is not so much that the Israelites were instructed to do different things but instead that they did not listen. I think God instructed the Israelite nation to become a holy nation of priests an to go out to the other nations and to preach about the only true God.

Also I think Jesus' teaching about forgiveness does not conflict with Paul's. Jesus taught that one must forgive because one has been forgiven of much. He did this in his parable in Matthew 18. I think Paul's writings in the Biblical text are scripture but not that they are a further progression from Christ. Also in many respects (not all since the Messiah had come) I think the NT is not a further progression than the NT. I think Jesus cleared up many misconceptions that the jews had about the OT.

For example what are the teo greatest commandments of the Law? Love God and love others. (shortened for space and time sake) Does any new information superceed these two commandments? I do not think so. We know who God is more clearly but we are still to love him. Also we know better that the others are all others and not just a select group. However we are still to love all others and the OT does not teach that we should love a group only and not all.

So I do not agree with you but I agree that we must take Paul seriously and we can learn much through a careful study ofhis writings.

 

[AVBunyan]

Hey Blackhawk -

Thank you for the intersting post.

You are welcome - just trying to get people to tlook at who they are in Christ.

I think it is not so much that the Israelites were instructed to do different things but instead that they did not listen.

Examples?
Wouldn't you say that adhering to the law is different than what we are to do? Yes, they did disobey the law. We are not under the law - you know that. They were told to be a nation of kingdom and priests and they failed, yes. We are not told to be a nation of kings and priests. The Jews were instructed in the Gospels to accept Jesus as their messiah - we are instructed ot take Christ as the one who died for our sins. They were told to preach the gospel ofthe kingdom (Matt. 28) - we are told to preach the gospel of God's grace - they are different. Maybe I'm just not understanding - help me here.

Also I think Jesus' teaching about forgiveness does not conflict with Paul's.

Really? Look at the following:
Mat 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
Mat 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Now go to:
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

They are different - In Matthew one's forgiveness was based upon them forgiving others - no forgiving others then they get no forgiveness.
Paul teaches differently - we are forgiven already based upon what Christ did at Calvary.

So I do not agree with you but I agree that we must take Paul seriously and we can learn much through a careful study of his writings.

Brother, we can't be under the same instructions that Israel was under. We have later instructins that God gave to Paul for us and they are a different set of instructions.

My door is still open - maybe we just are not understanding each other - I trust you see that I'm not for throwing out everyting but Paul - it is because of Paul that the other scriptures come alive to me.

May God bless

 

[BronxBriar]

. Leviticus teaches me God is serious about order in worship!

AV (or anyone else who would like to jump in)

What do you mean by "order in worship"??? Does it mean some denominations have it and some don't?

I like the active joy and lively praise of an Assembly of God church I know. I also appreciate the formal nature of the baptist church I use to attend (it was part of the ABC). I converted from RC so I am familiar with that type of "order" as well.

So what is good order? and what is considered "dis-ordered" worship?

When it come to PRAISE my Strong's seem to give a hint of organized chaos. But I may be reading to much into that.

Thanks for your help. BTW, I think this forum is on a roll and the spirit is moving in here!

Warmest regards.

 

[BT]

AV (or anyone else who would like to jump in)

What do you mean by "order in worship"??? Does it mean some denominations have it and some don't?

I like the active joy and lively praise of an Assembly of God church I know. I also appreciate the formal nature of the baptist church I use to attend (it was part of the ABC). I converted from RC so I am familiar with that type of "order" as well.

So what is good order? and what is considered "dis-ordered" worship?

When it come to PRAISE my Strong's seem to give a hint of organized chaos. But I may be reading to much into that.

Thanks for your help. BTW, I think this forum is on a roll and the spirit is moving in here!

Warmest regards.

Heya Bronx. I'll lend a hand here, because I understand what AV was saying in that quote you have.

I would say that yes some denoms have order in worship and some have chaos. I was raised RC, saved non-denom, moved to Charismatic, then to Pentecostal, and finally (permanently) Baptist.

What is good order and what is disorder?

Good question brother. Let's say this. Good order (in worship) is when the focus is on God. Disorder is when the focus is on us (our emotions, or highs). Order is God-centered, disorder is "me" centered. In some churches the "worship" gets so crazy that people have to be carried out. In some churches the singing goes on for so long that there is little or sometimes no preaching. I've met a lot of people who've said to me, "Church was ... okay this morning. We didn't do as much singing as normal so I was bored." Ack!

I think that should clear things up, but if it doesn't let me know...

 

[BT]

Please - I think I've not presented my poitn clearly. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness - I understand this.

What I am saying is that all scripture is FOR us but not necesarrily TO us.

Agreed!

I read all the Bible and get application, teaching, instruction, edification, rebuke, comfort, etc. from all the scriptures. Leviticus teaches me God is serious about order in worship!

At my church right now (we are strong right division) my preacher is in John in the Sunday AM service - on Sunday PM he is in I Samual. Tuesday night he is focsuing in on prayer with Matt.6 as the text!

I'm in Isaiah right now in my daily Bible reading. I just got finished teaching Lamentations, Job, Isaiah in our Sunday 6PM teaching service.

Brother I read it all and get what God has for me from all. My favorite verse is Matt. 11:28!!!

That's great to hear!!

But...but...I go to Paul first to find out what is doctrine for me today and go from there. I go to Paul to understand Christ's position today. I go to the gospels to see how Christ dealt with people and to see his divine nature show grace to the lowly and also see him scorch the proud Pharisees.

You can get Christ's position for today from Paul's writings. But.. you can also get it from the Gospels and the other epistles. Though Paul's work is directly related to the structure of the church and the Christian life (I would say then as well as today). So I think I get your meaning now.

Brother - I read it all but.....but...I believe we have to go to Paul to know our forgiveness, our position, our duties, our doctrine, etc. Once I understand who I am in Christ then I understand the other sections of the Bible much more and can get much more out of them with much more understanding because I started with Paul's explanation.

Ok I think I get you here. I would say that the beginning of wisdom (to know the Lord) comes from the gospels. The work of sanctification (ongoing to death or rapture) comes from the Gospels and Paul. But to study (and I mean STUDY cause some of it is real deep) Paul's writings shows the proper life-application of our earthly ministry and walk. I don't think you as an unsaved would start with Paul, but as a saved person you would end up there and grow there (but you could grow from the other epistles and Gospels).

Now, here is the real issue - there is great application all through the scirptures but if you do not understand Paul or start with Paul first then people start turning the "application" they are finding elsewhere into doctrine for us today aand then confusionreigns - just like what is going on here at this forum and others and churches all across America and other places!!!!

Do you understand me more now I hope

May God bless

I agree. Doctrine must be studied and the epistles are ripe with it, actually focused on it, since the earthly ministry of Christ (in the flesh) was completed. The problem, as you stated, with churches today is that they ignore the teachings of God in the writings of Paul and so just make it up as they go along. Now just one seperate small point... when you say this forum; do you mean the "Anabaptist/Baptist" or CF on the whole. I've said it many times; that I HEARTILY disagree with the CF motto "Uniting all Christians as One Body".

Anyway I think I get you now. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[BronxBriar]

I would say that yes some denoms have order in worship and some have chaos. I was raised RC, saved non-denom, moved to Charismatic, then to Pentecostal, and finally (permanently) Baptist.

WOW! That sounds very similar to my journey! Although I haven't found that 'permanent' home yet.

What is good order and what is disorder?

Good question brother. Let's say this. Good order (in worship) is when the focus is on God. Disorder is when the focus is on us (our emotions, or highs). Order is God-centered, disorder is "me" centered. In some churches the "worship" gets so crazy that people have to be carried out. In some churches the singing goes on for so long that there is little or sometimes no preaching. I've met a lot of people who've said to me, "Church was ... okay this morning. We didn't do as much singing as normal so I was bored." Ack!

I think that should clear things up...

Indeed it has. Thanks!

 

[BT]

WOW! That sounds very similar to my journey! Although I haven't found that 'permanent' home yet.

I hope you do brother! A church family, that is "home" is a blessing almost beyond compare.

Indeed it has. Thanks!

My pleasure.

 

[@@Paul@@]

I don't agree with that. The OT is important today, but it wasn't written for any one person. It was however written with me in mind.

……I never meant that it had no importance. Opps.. I know it came across that way,, but, I didn’t mean it!!

Welcome to dispensationalism. You, my friend are a dispensationalist. As am I. God did not have the same thing for everyone because His revelation was progressive. As time moved along, more and new things were added. It is still all useful.

Yes we should think that the messages of all three are 100% truth for today. If not in letter then in spirit. If you find something that may refer to Israel specifically, you can still learn from it. There is no obselete doctrine.

It’s a biblical word… …… It (scripture) is all useful, but it’s not all relevant to our task today.

Do you eat shell fish? Pork?? Some christians there is some obsolete doctrine… All scripture is good for instruction in righteousness,,, not all of it is good for doctrine.

Yes we must study and understand. Actually it is the Holy Spirit who gives illumination, but we have a part to play too. I don't know if I'm splitting hairs or not but there is no separation between Christ's teachings (the 4 gospels) and the epistles. The gospels deal with illumination AND APPLICATION, the epistles deal with illumination AND APPLICATION.

The verse from Mark does not imply that baptism is necessary. It says that he that believeth not shall be damned. Not he that is not baptized.

Nor am I trying to split hairs, but…. Most of the gospels were written to and for Israel. Christ came in the flesh TO Israel… but there IS application in those scriptures for today, I hope I didn’t imply I thought otherwise.

Christ sent Paul TO the gentiles, with a message… God the Father sent Christ TO Israel, with a message… Which message is specifically for US today?

But when you apply Mark with the very next thing that happened…

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

…It appears baptism was pretty important.