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Conservative=Regressive

ViaCrucis

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A Constitution limiting the power of government IS a good enough excuse. Fortunately we have one, and unfortunately progressives are intent on nullifying it.

Why are leftists so eager to throw away liberty, and turn the government into some kind of "enlightened despot?"

The same Constitution that listed African slaves as being 3/5 of a person, and which took the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments to overturn it and declare African Americans and freed African slaves to be full citizens under the law and having equal rights; and further confirmed in the Fifteenth Amendment and later by the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

The Constitution exists to regulate the government to protect the citizens of the nation. That's a good thing. What's not a good thing is hiding behind the Constitution to have an excuse to allow the perpetuation of injustice. That's where laws and regulations come into affect to protect the powerless, the weak, the discriminated, and the poor from the cruelty and powermongering of the wealthy and powerful when, if or wherever it raises its ugly head.

It's also noted that the Constitution has been amended as needed in order to protect the discriminated and the powerless, and laws such as the Civil Right Act help to keep that in check.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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oliverb

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The same Constitution that listed African slaves as being 3/5 of a person, and which took the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments to overturn it and declare African Americans and freed African slaves to be full citizens under the law and having equal rights; and further confirmed in the Fifteenth Amendment and later by the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

The Constitution exists to regulate the government to protect the citizens of the nation. That's a good thing. What's not a good thing is hiding behind the Constitution to have an excuse to allow the perpetuation of injustice. That's where laws and regulations come into affect to protect the powerless, the weak, the discriminated, and the poor from the cruelty and powermongering of the wealthy and powerful when, if or wherever it raises its ugly head.

It's also noted that the Constitution has been amended as needed in order to protect the discriminated and the powerless, and laws such as the Civil Right Act help to keep that in check.

-CryptoLutheran

It seems you've missed the fact that the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments where not counter to the Constitution, they were passed very much in accordance with a Constitutional process. Abiding by the Constitution is precisely what I've advocated. What you advocate, however, IS counter to the Constitution, specifically stated in the 9th and 10h amendments.

So, here is the proper understanding of the Constitution and the political philosophy of limited government. "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

What that means is if the Constitution doesn't SPECIFICALLY grant the government the power to interfere, don't do it! Stop pretending that the Constitution grants the government wide ranging powers to do whatever progressives think is a good idea. It doesn't!

I have no intention of ignoring injustice, but unlike you, I'm not crippled by a belief that nothing happens unless the government does it.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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PHenry42 said:
Yes, it was a coincidence. The rate of "technological process" that had occurred for thousands of years before was quite insignificant compared to something as truly revolutionary as a steam engine replacing human labour.

Capitalism and an industrial economy are not inherently connected. Adam Smith penned the Wealth of Nations at a time when the steam engine was still a curiosity. Nothing in the ideas he promotes requires mechanized production.

Without division of labor, steam engines would never be anything but a curiousity, because they would be prohibitively expensive, just as the automobile was a curiousity until Henry Ford invented the assembly line. Without division of labor, mechanized production isn't possible either.

PHenry42 said:
Oooh, liberal rejection of a single book which the jury is still out on and is far from established science. Hardly compares with conservative rejection of evolution and global warming, two well-established scientific facts.

The Bell Curve is the best known example, but there are plenty of others. Politically incorrect science generally doesn't get a lot of press. Liberals are generally quick to reject any scientific research that suggests that social inequality might have a biological basis.

Why can't rejection or Darwinism in regards to the origins of the various species of life be compared with rejection of Darwin's concept of survival of the fittest, which is what Robert Reich explicitly does? The former is dependent on the latter.
 
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Blayz

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Humans have the right to life, liberty, and property. "Progressives" deny or seek to deny these rights in various ways:

Life: The unborn are denied this right.

Liberty: Speech codes (on universities as well as censorship laws, fairness doctrine, net neutrality), mandates concerning weapons storage and restricting carrying them (Chicago is particularly egregious).

Property: Overtaxation. Overregulation of what can be bought and sold. Eminent domain abuse.

Humans have the right to life, liberty and property. "Conservatives" deny or seek to deny these rights in various ways.

Life: Conservatives are all for the death penalty

Liberty: the 3 strikes rule, the new law that US citizens on US soil suspected of terrorism can be held indefinitely without trial. The concept of rendition.

Property: Under Bush the US-citizens-pay-tax-everywhere was extended. You live and work overseas and own overseas property....pay US property tax.

That was fun. Your turn.
 
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Sketcher

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Humans have the right to life, liberty and property. "Conservatives" deny or seek to deny these rights in various ways.

Life: Conservatives are all for the death penalty

Liberty: the 3 strikes rule, the new law that US citizens on US soil suspected of terrorism can be held indefinitely without trial. The concept of rendition.

Property: Under Bush the US-citizens-pay-tax-everywhere was extended. You live and work overseas and own overseas property....pay US property tax.

That was fun. Your turn.
The death penalty is not a violation of the right to life, because in order for it to be implemented, one must be convicted of a crime in a court of law first. To say that is a violation of the right to life is like saying sending criminals to prison is a violation of their right to liberty, or forcing them to pay a punitive fine is a violation of their right to property. It doesn't work. If you've been convicted of a crime in a fair trial, you may be punished in any of these ways. When the guilty party committed the crime, he brought it on himself.

On the other two points, I happen to share your disagreement with them. Bush was not a conservative, he was a moderate.
 
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Archaeopteryx

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A Constitution limiting the power of government IS a good enough excuse. Fortunately we have one, and unfortunately progressives are intent on nullifying it.

Why are leftists so eager to throw away liberty, and turn the government into some kind of "enlightened despot?"

They're not.
 
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mzungu

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The death penalty is not a violation of the right to life, because in order for it to be implemented, one must be convicted of a crime in a court of law first. To say that is a violation of the right to life is like saying sending criminals to prison is a violation of their right to liberty, or forcing them to pay a punitive fine is a violation of their right to property. It doesn't work. If you've been convicted of a crime in a fair trial, you may be punished in any of these ways. When the guilty party committed the crime, he brought it on himself.

On the other two points, I happen to share your disagreement with them. Bush was not a conservative, he was a moderate.
Simply put; Capital punishment is the mark of an uncivilised society! Basically it is the: "Leg hurts? Cut leg!" philosophy and this is detrimental to social progress.
 
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PHenry42

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Without division of labor, steam engines would never be anything but a curiousity, because they would be prohibitively expensive, just as the automobile was a curiousity until Henry Ford invented the assembly line. Without division of labor, mechanized production isn't possible either.

Specialization and division of labour are as old as civilization itself, they weren't invented out of nowhere by proto-capitalist intellectuals.

The Bell Curve is the best known example, but there are plenty of others. Politically incorrect science generally doesn't get a lot of press.

And Conservatives are different in that regard?

Why can't rejection or Darwinism in regards to the origins of the various species of life be compared with rejection of Darwin's concept of survival of the fittest, which is what Robert Reich explicitly does? The former is dependent on the latter.

That survival of the fittest is a biological fact does not imply that it should be a social reality, or that a society needs to be built around it (as applied to individuals) to be successful. Darwin himself stated that there is no reason to do something simply because it is natural, as it might well be immoral.
 
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oliverb

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McVeigh did not say a word in the final minutes before his execution, but left a handwritten statement quoting Invictus, a 19th century poem by British poet William Ernest Henley. It ends with the lines "I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul."
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Simply put; Capital punishment is the mark of an uncivilised society! Basically it is the: "Leg hurts? Cut leg!" philosophy and this is detrimental to social progress.

America is still the 'wild west' of the world, barely civilized. The death penalty is a useful thing when properly used, but Americans don't use many things properly. Social progress is more rightly measured by the behavior of the citizenry, not so much that of government. That government overreacts is often a sign of frustration with an unresponsive and irresponsible citizenry (of course the reverse is often true as well).
 
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mzungu

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America is still the 'wild west' of the world, barely civilized. The death penalty is a useful thing when properly used, but Americans don't use many things properly. Social progress is more rightly measured by the behavior of the citizenry, not so much that of government. That government overreacts is often a sign of frustration with an unresponsive and irresponsible citizenry (of course the reverse is often true as well).
The death penalty does not deter crime! Its usefulness is questioned by Amnesty International. How else can you justify criminal homicides in the US if capital punishment is useful?

There is nothing useful in putting a human to death.
 
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Belk

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The death penalty is not a violation of the right to life, because in order for it to be implemented, one must be convicted of a crime in a court of law first. To say that is a violation of the right to life is like saying sending criminals to prison is a violation of their right to liberty, or forcing them to pay a punitive fine is a violation of their right to property. It doesn't work. If you've been convicted of a crime in a fair trial, you may be punished in any of these ways. When the guilty party committed the crime, he brought it on himself.

On the other two points, I happen to share your disagreement with them. Bush was not a conservative, he was a moderate.

Sending criminals to prison is a violation of their right to liberty. Simply being tried and convicted in a court of law does not change a right to a non right. Our constitution specifically allows for the violation of rights under certain circumstances. Upholding the law is but one of many examples of this. Another is the limits to free speech under certain circumstances.
 
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Paradoxum

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Humans have the right to life, liberty, and property. "Progressives" deny or seek to deny these rights in various ways:

Life: The unborn are denied this right.

Yes they are. The fringe elements of what are considered human are still under consideration. A fetus falls outside the power of human rights.

Liberty: Speech codes (on universities as well as censorship laws, fairness doctrine, net neutrality), mandates concerning weapons storage and restricting carrying them (Chicago is particularly egregious).

I'm not American so I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but are you talking about limits to freedom of speech and not allow people to own any death weapon they like? I don't believe human rights protect you when you say or do everything.

Property: Overtaxation. Overregulation of what can be bought and sold. Eminent domain abuse.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

You need to prove it is arbitrary before you claim a human rights violation.
 
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ViaCrucis

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A useless death is often a fitting end to a useless life. ;)

There's no such thing as a useless life. Though that depends on one's ethical code. As a Christian the ethic of life seems pretty important.

It often seems that "Pro-Life" is an empty and inconsistent position. A consistent and holistic pro-life ethic cannot support the death penalty, depriving the post-born of just and right social conditions, or advocating war.

The sheer vast majority of self-professed pro-life people aren't pro-life in any meaningful sense of the term.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Kalevalatar

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There's no such thing as a useless life. Though that depends on one's ethical code. As a Christian the ethic of life seems pretty important.

It often seems that "Pro-Life" is an empty and inconsistent position. A consistent and holistic pro-life ethic cannot support the death penalty, depriving the post-born of just and right social conditions, or advocating war.

The sheer vast majority of self-professed pro-life people aren't pro-life in any meaningful sense of the term.

-CryptoLutheran

.
 
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NotreDame

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You are not Conservative. Not by a long shot. You are Regressive. Not only are you regressive, you are social Darwinists as well.

The Rebirth of Social Darwinism
What kind of society, exactly, do modern Republicans want? I’ve been listening to Republican candidates in an effort to discern an overall philosophy, a broadly-shared vision, an ideal picture of America.

They say they want a smaller government but that can’t be it. Most seek a larger national defense and more muscular homeland security. Almost all want to widen the government’s powers of search and surveillance inside the United States – eradicating possible terrorists, expunging undocumented immigrants, “securing” the nation’s borders. They want stiffer criminal sentences, including broader application of the death penalty. Many also want government to intrude on the most intimate aspects of private life.

They call themselves conservatives but that’s not it, either. They don’t want to conserve what we now have. They’d rather take the country backwards – before the 1960s and 1970s, and the Environmental Protection Act, Medicare, and Medicaid; before the New Deal, and its provision for Social Security, unemployment insurance, the forty-hour workweek, laws against child labor, and official recognition of trade unions; even before the Progressive Era, and the first national income tax, antitrust laws, and Federal Reserve.

They’re not conservatives. They’re regressives. And the America they seek is the one we had in the Gilded Age of the late nineteenth century.

It was an era when the nation was mesmerized by the doctrine of free enterprise, but few Americans actually enjoyed much freedom. Robber barons like the financier Jay Gould, the railroad magnate Cornelius Vanderbilt, and the oil tycoon John D. Rockefeller, controlled much of American industry; the gap between rich and poor had turned into a chasm; urban slums festered; children worked long hours in factories; women couldn’t vote and black Americans were subject to Jim Crow; and the lackeys of rich literally deposited sacks of money on desks of pliant legislators.

Most tellingly, it was a time when the ideas of William Graham Sumner, a professor of political and social science at Yale, dominated American social thought. Sumner brought Charles Darwin to America and twisted him into a theory to fit the times.

Few Americans living today have read any of Sumner’s writings but they had an electrifying effect on America during the last three decades of the 19th century.

To Sumner and his followers, life was a competitive struggle in which only the fittest could survive – and through this struggle societies became stronger over time. A correlate of this principle was that government should do little or nothing to help those in need because that would interfere with natural selection.
Survival of the fittest. That's what is read over and over again in so many posts here.
Listen to today’s Republican debates and you hear a continuous regurgitation of Sumner. “Civilization has a simple choice,” Sumner wrote in the 1880s. It’s either “liberty, inequality, survival of the fittest,” or “not-liberty, equality, survival of the unfittest. The former carries society forward and favors all its best members; the latter carries society downwards and favors all its worst members.”

Sound familiar?

Newt Gingrich not only echoes Sumner’s thoughts but mimics Sumner’s reputed arrogance. Gingrich says we must reward “entrepreneurs” (by which he means anyone who has made a pile of money) and warns us not to “coddle” people in need. He calls laws against child labor “truly stupid,” and says poor kids should serve as janitors in their schools. He opposes extending unemployment insurance because, he says, ”I’m opposed to giving people money for doing nothing.”

Sumner, likewise, warned against handouts to people he termed “negligent, shiftless, inefficient, silly, and imprudent.”

Mitt Romney doesn’t want the government to do much of anything about unemployment. And he’s dead set against raising taxes on millionaires, relying on the standard Republican rationale millionaires create jobs.

Here’s Sumner, more than a century ago: “Millionaires are the product of natural selection, acting on the whole body of men to pick out those who can meet the requirement of certain work to be done… It is because they are thus selected that wealth aggregates under their hands – both their own and that intrusted to them … They may fairly be regarded as the naturally selected agents of society.” Although they live in luxury, “the bargain is a good one for society.”
You practice Darwinism and are regressive in your views. You are not out to conserve anything but the status quo of the rich getting richer and the others getting poorer because you feel they don't have the ability to succeed. You have no compassion for those who are not rich and well taken care of.
Other Republican hopefuls also fit Sumner’s mold. Ron Paul, who favors repeal of Obama’s healthcare plan, was asked at a Republican debate in September what medical response he’d recommend if a young man who had decided not to buy health insurance were to go into a coma. Paul’s response: “That’s what freedom is all about: taking your own risks.” The Republican crowd cheered.


In other words, if the young man died for lack of health insurance, he was responsible. Survival of the fittest.


Social Darwinism offered a moral justification for the wild inequities and social cruelties of the late nineteenth century. It allowed John D. Rockefeller, for example, to claim the fortune he accumulated through his giant Standard Oil Trust was “merely a survival of the fittest.” It was, he insisted “the working out of a law of nature and of God.”


Social Darwinism also undermined all efforts at the time to build a nation of broadly-based prosperity and rescue our democracy from the tight grip of a very few at the top. It was used by the privileged and powerful to convince everyone else that government shouldn’t do much of anything.
But America did reject this in the past and will reject it again. I say good riddance to your regressive social Darwinism.

This is a wonderfully fantastic Strawman StamperBen. You provide no evidence, none, to suggest or support the conclusion the Republican Party are advocates of Social Darwinism.

So, to borrow your reasoning, I propose the following diatribe.

Democrats are Communists: They are advocates for Soviet Union style dictatorship.

Just take my comment above as true and no evidence is necessary to support this belief or perception, just as you felt it unnecessary to provide any evidence to support your belief or perception above. You commit the same error here at this forum as you did in the other forum.
 
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SOAD

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This is a wonderfully fantastic Strawman StamperBen. You provide no evidence, none, to suggest or support the conclusion the Republican Party are advocates of Social Darwinism.

So, to borrow your reasoning, I propose the following diatribe.

Democrats are Communists: They are advocates for Soviet Union style dictatorship.

Just take my comment above as true and no evidence is necessary to support this belief or perception, just as you felt it unnecessary to provide any evidence to support your belief or perception above. You commit the same error here at this forum as you did in the other forum.


Taking it personally, are we? Seems you should be attacking Robert Reich instead of StamperBen.

Personally, I believe Reich is correct. Conservatives are always looking back to "the good old days", you know when women and blacks knew their place and the bossman ran his factory long and hot. Good times :D
 
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OldWiseGuy

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There's no such thing as a useless life. Though that depends on one's ethical code. As a Christian the ethic of life seems pretty important.

It often seems that "Pro-Life" is an empty and inconsistent position. A consistent and holistic pro-life ethic cannot support the death penalty, depriving the post-born of just and right social conditions, or advocating war.

The sheer vast majority of self-professed pro-life people aren't pro-life in any meaningful sense of the term.

-CryptoLutheran

The purpose of mortal human life is to seek God and enter a relationship with Him through Chrlst. If the murder of a fellowman is the final, defining act of a persons life, I'd say that is a wasted life, and that act taints anything useful that person might have done.

Pro-lifers want the newly conceived to have the opportunity to live and succeed. The murderer has had his/her chance at life and has squandered it.
 
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