Conservative Methodists

[lucaspa]

Tax collectors were among those who were ostracized because their work was considered dishonest or immoral.

Can I help you explain this? Romans did not collect taxes like we do in the USA or the West. First, the taxed had no say in what the taxes were. Rome set how much you had to pay and there was no way to get it changed.

But it's worse! Rome did not have an IRS or anything like that. Instead, they "farmed" out tax collecting. What they did was hire individuals to collect taxes. The individuals got a small percentage of the taxes, but but whatever they collected above that was the tax collector's. Think about that for a moment, everyone.

The tax collector made his money by collecting taxes above and beyond what Rome wanted. That is a setup for greed and violence. The tax collector can hire goons (perhaps legionaries earning a bit of extra money) and collect the taxes as sword or spearpoint. Whatever he can get. And there is really no check to his greed. So no wonder everyone hated tax collectors: 1) they were working for the occupier, 2) they had no restraint, 3) they could collect whatever they wanted and 4) they were not above using violence to do so.

In OT times it was taken for granted that God's people DID NOT consort with sinners, just as you have suggested that the Church of Jesus Christ should not. But what do we see? We see Jesus doing exactly that, and he tells stories to imply that this is the very attitude that God seeks of those who truly follow him, that we would not wait for the lost to come to us, but that we would go seeking them.

Couldn't agree more. Jesus took the "unrepenetant" into his circle of disciples and never ceased associating with those others at the time would call "unrepenetant".

This isn't to excuse the actions of either son, but what we have is a father who shows mercy as a unilateral condition of who he is, not at all dependent on the actions of the sons. The Church can have no different attitude toward sinners today, than God has toward us.

Again, totally agree. If Jeremiah wants to think Methodism has lost its way, then I hope he finds a denomination that is more to his liking. I presonally want Methodism to stay like you present it.

 

[lucaspa]

I've tried to restrain myself from posting, because I can just see this spiraling further and further downhill, but this was eating at me.

So basically, is it just me or is this thread devolving into a question pretty much summed up as "Why aren't Methodists Fundamentalist?"

It may be. Jeremiah's Calling, when he says "Word of God", referring to the Bible, does sound like a Fundamentalist. His calls to exclude the "unrepentant" do sound like what we hear from very Fundamentalist churches. But they also sound like what we hear from the very Calvinist churches.

It looks to me like Jeremiah's Calling isn't here to fellowship with fellow Wesleyans, but rather to convert us to his denomination. I wonder if he is doing this in other denominational areas?

Ah! I was right! Here Jeremiah's Calling is posting in the Fundamentalist Christian forum: http://www.christianforums.com/t7498295/

He says he agrees with the Fundamentalist statements "101%". We aren't "Bible-believing" enough for him.

 

[TheArtguy58]

Jeremiah's Calling from another post

I just completely wreaked havoc on liberal theology.

I think Jeremiah's Calling is giving himself a bit too much credit for how he dealt with us.
Still I wish him well in his search for a new church home. Everyone should be happy in the church they choose.

 

[Historicus]

Mod Hat On
This is just a reminder of the "house rules" here in Wesley's Parish.
If you are not Wesleyan you may not debate or teach here.
You may ask sincere questions, and make fellowship posts, but again debating is not allowed.
Furthermore any views that go contrary to Wesleyan teaching will be considered off-topic to this forum.
Mod Hat Off
​

 

[lucaspa]

Mod Hat On

This is just a reminder of the "house rules" here in Wesley's Parish.
If you are not Wesleyan you may not debate or teach here.
You may ask sincere questions, and make fellowship posts, but again debating is not allowed.
Furthermore any views that go contrary to Wesleyan teaching will be considered off-topic to this forum.
Mod Hat Off​

I wondered when the Mods were going to decide that Jeremiah was trying to change us and debating what was "right". Looks like it was about now.

I too wish Jeremiah happiness in whatever Fundie church he finds in Alabama. He should have lots of choices.

 

[lucaspa]

Jeremiah's Calling from another post
I think Jeremiah's Calling is giving himself a bit too much credit for how he dealt with us.
Still I wish him well in his search for a new church home. Everyone should be happy in the church they choose.

I think right there is one of the major differences in attitude between Wesleyan and Fundamentalist. Jeremiah's Calling made it pretty clear that we should not be happy in our denomination because it is not "right".

 

[Maid Marie]

I wondered when the Mods were going to decide that Jeremiah was trying to change us and debating what was "right". Looks like it was about now.

Didn't he at one time have the Methodist symbol? If so, then mods probably viewed it as an in house thing.

 

[lucaspa]

Didn't he at one time have the Methodist symbol? If so, then mods probably viewed it as an in house thing.

I don't know. By the time I really looked at his faith icon, it was not Methodist. I don't think it ever was. But even if he never used the Methodist faith icon, I think the Mods were right in giving him a lot of leniency to discuss. IMO, better to err on the side of discussion and let us present the Methodist position. It's just that, for the last several days, it was becoming more obvious that J'sC was not interested in the Methodist viewpoint but was trying to declare Methodism wrong and get us to change from Methodism. So I was expecting the fellowship rule to be enforced sooner or later.

 

[GraceSeeker]

It was becoming more obvious that J'sC was not interested in the Methodist viewpoint but was trying to declare Methodism wrong and get us to change from Methodism. So I was expecting the fellowship rule to be enforced sooner or later.

Yes. And while I personally wished that Parkenstein's thread with his questions on OSAS had remained open to discussion, what you say about Jeremiah is right. He wasn't seeking to discuss, learn about Wesleyan thought or in anyway relate to us, he just wanted to tell us that we were wrong. Good to see the mods take action in this case.

 

[Chris81]

Yes. And while I personally wished that Parkenstein's thread with his questions on OSAS had remained open to discussion, what you say about Jeremiah is right. He wasn't seeking to discuss, learn about Wesleyan thought or in anyway relate to us, he just wanted to tell us that we were wrong. Good to see the mods take action in this case.

At the beginning of the thread he had presented himself as a conservative Methodist. However in the course of the discussion it was quite clear that he really was just pretending to be a Methodist. His purpose all along was to preach to us about how we were some sort of evil apostate church that should abandon Wesleyan theology and instead should become Fundamentalist.

I am fine with having a civil discussion about the theological merits of our church teachings but I have no respect for someone posing as something they are not to cause discord.

 

[Maid Marie]

At the beginning of the thread he had presented himself as a conservative Methodist. However in the course of the discussion it was quite clear that he really was just pretending to be a Methodist. His purpose all along was to preach to us about how we were some sort of evil apostate church that should abandon Wesleyan theology and instead should become Fundamentalist.

This is how I recall his posts. And when he went nutty on the reputation points....well, that reminded me of many intolerant, non-wesleyan types...so it didn't surprise me that he was really a MINO [Methodist in Name Only].

 

[Chris81]

This is how I recall his posts. And when he went nutty on the reputation points....well, that reminded me of many intolerant, non-wesleyan types...so it didn't surprise me that he was really a MINO [Methodist in Name Only].

"MINO" that is great, I have to remember to use that some time!

 

[Maid Marie]

"MINO" that is great, I have to remember to use that some time!

I originally heard that from a Nazarene. We had been discussing Reformed Christians who joined the CotN and then complained that the denomination was so Wesleyan. My friend referred to these folks as NINOs...Nazarene in Name Only.

 

[GraceSeeker]

This is how I recall his posts. And when he went nutty on the reputation points....well, that reminded me of many intolerant, non-wesleyan types...so it didn't surprise me that he was really a MINO [Methodist in Name Only].

Is that "Methodist in Name Only" or "Wesleyan in Name Only"?

 

[Maid Marie]

Is that "Methodist in Name Only" or "Wesleyan in Name Only"?

Funny - WINO...

 

[GraceSeeker]

So, I drifted over to the "fundy" site on CF to read what was written about us here in the WP and was amused. But it got me to thinking, Methodists are all over the place on the theological spectrum. I generally think of myself as being conservative -- which is why I am surprised when people ask questions about how "liberal" the UMC is. I don't see it that way at all. But, perhaps I'm only conservative within the UMC framework. So, I checked out the way "conservative" is defined here on CF:

1. The Holy Scriptures are the inspired, written Word of God. The revelation of Scripture is completely reliable, inerrant and authoritative. Some conservative Christians also hold church tradition to be a source of authority.
2 Timothy 3:16

2. Human life is sacred from conception to death, though some conservative Christians accept that the death penalty is justified, by judicial process, in capital or other grave cases.
Exodus 20:13

3. We believe that the Nicene Creed is an accurate description of the nature of God.

4.We believe in the literal authenticity of Christ's miracles, and the historical accuracy of events described in the Bible.
Acts 2:22

5. We believe in the judgment of God, and in a literal Heaven and Hell.
Acts 10:42 ; Mark 16:19 ; Luke 12:5

6. We have a traditional Christian view of morality. We oppose sexual activity outside a traditional marriage between one man and one woman, abortion on demand and euthanasia.
Genesis 2:24 ; Psalm 51:5

Yep. This pretty well describes my view on most of these subjects. I might have worded a few things slightly differently, but I'm 99% there. I wonder, just how important is that 1% that I can't fully affirm?

 

[WiredSpirit]

So, I drifted over to the "fundy" site on CF to read what was written about us here in the WP and was amused. But it got me to thinking, Methodists are all over the place on the theological spectrum. I generally think of myself as being conservative -- which is why I am surprised when people ask questions about how "liberal" the UMC is. I don't see it that way at all. But, perhaps I'm only conservative within the UMC framework. So, I checked out the way "conservative" is defined here on CF:



Yep. This pretty well describes my view on most of these subjects. I might have worded a few things slightly differently, but I'm 99% there. I wonder, just how important is that 1% that I can't fully affirm?

I think the fact that they felt the need to include number six in their core beliefs shows a little insecurity. They call it morality, which is a personal attitude, but by opposing those things on the level they do they insist the rest of society adopt their morality, and it seems they would rather push that message than one of grace and fulfillment. My attitude is similar. I am not promiscuous and I have reservations about abortion, but my focus is not at all on behavior.

 

[GraceSeeker]

But, WiredSpirit, you came out a Brian McLaren type of Christian. It is all of us "Billy Graham" type United Methodists that cause me to continue to assert that the UMC is a lot more conservative than folks outside of the UMC like to pretend we are. Just because we aren't fundies, doesn't make us liberal. Of course, to some Jeremiah Calling-type fundies even Jerry Falwell probably looked like a liberal.


----------------------------

CORRECTION!! WiredSpirit also came out a "Billy Graham". I was remembering wrong when I wrote the above post. My apologies.

 

[Maid Marie]

So, I drifted over to the "fundy" site on CF to read what was written about us here in the WP and was amused. But it got me to thinking, Methodists are all over the place on the theological spectrum. I generally think of myself as being conservative -- which is why I am surprised when people ask questions about how "liberal" the UMC is. I don't see it that way at all.

My observation is that conservativeness and liberalness is really dependant upon where the speaker's pov is. Ex. I watch CNN news almost exclusively. My progressive friend wants to know how I can stand such a "conservative" channel. My conservative relative wants to know how I can stand such a "liberal" channel. I ignore them both and keep on watching.

And then there is the CotN. We tend to be more conservative than the UMC, but according to an ultra fundie holiness group "God's Missionary" we are heathens because of the way we dress and watch tv, and the Pilgrim Holiness [which to me are akin to the Amish] are viewed as "backsliders".

As for "liberal" methodists... I know that where I used to live [in a hotbed of fundie conservativeness] Methodists were seen as liberal cuz they didn't follow the same beliefs as the baptist fundies when it came to how one is saved. And now I am hearing Nazzies and UM lumped together as heathens because we view the bible as sufficient for salvation but not 100% inerrant.

OK...whatever...I'd rather be known for one who is so filled with God's love that I attract people to God and not repel them.

 

[WiredSpirit]

But, WiredSpirit, you came out a Brian McLaren type of Christian. It is all of us "Billy Graham" type United Methodists that cause me to continue to assert that the UMC is a lot more conservative than folks outside of the UMC like to pretend we are. Just because we aren't fundies, doesn't make us liberal. Of course, to some Jeremiah Calling-type fundies even Jerry Falwell probably looked like a liberal.

I came out a "Billy Graham."