Conservative Methodists

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheArtguy58

Newbie
Aug 21, 2010
44
14
✟7,734.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I've been really disillusioned for the last year. I've heard lay leaders say they don't believe the Bible's declaration of creation. I've even heard a "preacher" talked about millions or billions of years ago. Why trust nonCHristian scientists (nonChristians deny the Truth and so are liars) who promote the lie of evolution? Why not trust the God who was there and Who can't lie? "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY Word the proceedeth from the mouth of God."

Interesting you should say you are disillusioned by he liberal bent of the UMC. My own feelings were once just the opposite. For a long time I l wanted the church to have a bit more leeway in the way the scriptures are understood. I lean more to the literary/historical critical approach when I read the bible and look for the scriptural meaning lying beneath the surface of the words. This, most likely, would put me in the position of the lay person you reference... we probably would get along fine. However over time the good Lord has helped me come to see that each persons understanding must be his own and the best thing we can do is discuss it in as civilized a manner as is possible. If we disagree it doesn't mean the church is in danger of collapse it just means we have a lot more to talk about.
 
Upvote 0

Mr Dave

God Save The Queen!
Apr 2, 2010
7,220
762
Sheffield
✟25,710.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Check out Good News. Most people would probably classify this publication as being conservative, yet it is published by people who are all United Methodists. The organization is certainly seen as the bane of "liberals" (depending on how you define "liberal") in the United Methodist Church.

I feel I should provide the closest equivalent from across the pond :p

Methodist Evangelicals Together (MET) - Methodist Evangelicals Together
 
Upvote 0

GraceSeeker

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2007
4,339
410
USA
✟17,297.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

Jeremiah's Calling

His Majesties' Royal Ambassador to NE Alabama
Aug 20, 2010
29
4
His Majesties' Royal Embassy in NE AL
✟15,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
(Cool, links!)

There is one and only one correct interpretation of the Bible. There are many applications, but one and only one correct interpretation. Show me a book, and I can only describe to you what I see from my view point. You see another view. Another sees yet a different view. But many people describe what they want to see, not what actually is.

I said I feel there isn't sufficient stress on repentance. Also I feel there is a dire lack of stress on personal obedience. To stress the need for repentance isn't the same as beating someone up (and some conservatives do this) for needing helping in trying to resist sinning in the first place. They say, "You need to repent of this or that temptation." That's pure ignorance. They should say, Yes, we will pray with you and for you and help you along the Way. And liberals have a way of saying, "Well, If you enjoy indulging yourself at Christ's continued expense, you go ahead." This too is pure ignorance. No wonder there is so much confusion and infighting.

Liberals (imho) lack understanding, faith, repentance, and obedience in their teachings. They seem to confuse excusing sin as forgiveness, and permissiveness as mercy. Conservatives often lack understanding and love. They often seem to confuse forgiveness with excusing sin and mercy as permissiveness.

So few seem to take God at His Word anymore. That was Adam and Eve's sin: not taking God at His Word and then they acted on that unbelief by eating the forbidden fruit. So, if we want to be saved, we are required to take God at His every Word, even when we don't understand it - from the Genesis account of a literal 6 day creation to the promise that those who don't believe (as proven by their unrepentant behavior) will be damned. (A loving God wouldn't let an unrepentant unbeliever enjoy Heaven along with those who did bring themselves into submission in faith. That would render the believer's faith and self-sacrifice pointless. Besides, would you let someone you knew hated you and wanted to do you and yours harm live with you in your house? No. Neither will God.)

As well, too many seem to be confusing Christianity with political positions and social crusades without any apparent notion of personal submission and obedience. So sad. So tragic. And we put too much emphasis on seminary and man-made hoops. We should be concerned with orthodoxy, character, widsom (which will never be found in seminary), and especially Spirit-led-ness (to make up a word).

And finally, and I promise to be quiet for a bit, we need more evangelism. My church gives you this "Are you nuts?!" look when you talk about evangelism. They respond, "We don't want to force people." To which I reply, "Nobody is forcing anybody. But contrary to your understanding, Wesley didn't get saved by osmosis. Somebody had to explain it to him and help him come to the point of deciding that, yes, he did believe. Simply joining the church isn't always the same as becoming Christian just because you become part of the church when become a Christian." (and now I'll be quiet for a bit... :) )
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mcswan
Upvote 0

WiredSpirit

and all God's people said... meh
Jul 5, 2004
1,882
125
39
Evansville
✟2,698.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Don't know anything about either one of these guys, but if that is the standard, and these quotes are representative of what are considered conservative views, then I guess I'm a conservative.



Hope unbelieved is always considered nonsense. But hope believed is history in the process of being changed.
Jim Wallis

I believe in the separation of church and state, absolutely. But I don't believe in the separation of public life from our values, our basic values, and for many of us, our religious values.
Jim Wallis

I don't think we should discriminate against an organization or congregation because they're religious, if they're doing good work. But government can't subsidize proselytizing or worship or religious activity. It can't.
Jim Wallis

I think it's a good thing for a president or political leaders to want to put their values or their faith into action. Desmond Tutu did that in South Africa. Martin Luther King Jr. did that here. This is a good thing.
Jim Wallis

But when we place God on our side of things, that we are now ridding the world of evil - that's very dangerous, that one nation has this role to rid the world of evil. What about the evil we have committed, that we are complicit in?
Jim Wallis

I'm not sure but I think Wallis would be the conservative and Winkler would be a liberal in the illustration you were given. Wallis is an evangelical anti-poverty activist and he regularly disses political activism in the church, although evangelicals actually consider him to be liberal. He's not a Methodist either. Winkler, I believe, is the head of the United Methodist General Board of Church and Society. You'll have to check the website to see what they've been up to lately but generally what they advocate for does not fall along political party lines with the exception of opposing the Iraq war, but I would proudly say their activities are overall liberal.

As for the United Methodist Church, it is the most conservative of the mainline churches in the US. Comparing it to Christians globally I'd say we are very conservative. With that said I, myself, am socially and politically liberal and I don't think the UMC is political at all. I joined a liberal UCC church for four years and I thought it was totally irrelevant. They were more concerned about appearing liberal than they were about getting things done. They bragged that they performed the first gay commitment ceremony in the state, but they weren't effectively making a constant difference in the community. The UMC tends to avoid politics. Individual members of my own church range from a gay-rights activist college student to a county Right-to-Life official. The fact that we all worship together in the same room every week is proof enough Christianity really does have something to offer for everyone.
 
Upvote 0

Jeremiah's Calling

His Majesties' Royal Ambassador to NE Alabama
Aug 20, 2010
29
4
His Majesties' Royal Embassy in NE AL
✟15,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Individual members of my own church range from a gay-rights activist college student to a county Right-to-Life official. The fact that we all worship together in the same room every week is proof enough Christianity really does have something to offer for everyone.


WRONG. No, my Love, no.
Christianity emphatically does NOT have something to offer for everyone. This is not some smorgasbord. Christianity only offers forgiveness and eternal life to the repentant. Unrepentant people living in sin have no part whatsoever with the people of God. The only thing unrepentant people are promised is damnation - at their own insistence, against God's will. (A gay-rights activist is promoting sin. Gay sex is sin. Period. End of discussion. But we should tell people, "God - and we - will walk with you in the midst of your temptations and give you the strength & help to resist! But any gay behavior must stop.")

That no one at your church evidently preaches this truth is what is wrong with so many churches. True love speaks the truth. The offense of the cross (that is to say, the rejection by God Himself of people's opinions and behaviors as repulsive and wrong, and the fact that God requires and commands people to admit their opinions and behaviors are wrong and submit absolutely to HIS position and behavioral requirements 100%) MUST be preached. Without it, there is NO salvation of any kind. There is only empty (thus wicked) religion and self-deception. Like I said in another post: Jesus ranted that some go to the ends of the earth to make one convert and when they are done, the poor "convert" is twice the child of hell they were before. Supposedly Christian people who tell the wicked that they are OK with God as they are, without repentance, will burn in hell right along with the unrepentant.

The Bible says PLAINLY, If anyone preaches anything other than this, let them be damned.

Amen ("so be it").

Tell your friend & tell your pastor, "Repent and submit." Warn them. That would be the loving Christian thing to do! And if the pastor won't listen, flee that church! But warn them both and pray for them!
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

TheArtguy58

Newbie
Aug 21, 2010
44
14
✟7,734.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

I debated about answering this but to be honest I felt I had to say a little something


Jeremiah's Calling

Christianity emphatically does NOT have something to offer for everyone. This is not some smorgasbord.
You're right in saying Christianity is not a smorgasbord (there's a word I haven't heard in years) but you're wrong to think it does not have something to offer everyone. It offers the same forgiveness you yourself spoke of. And it offers it to all. A church may embrace a member who is homosexual without accepting the lifestyle. How else can the church and its people work to do God's will? Certainly not by turning them away. I hardly see that as something Jesus would do.


The Bible says PLAINLY, If anyone preaches anything other than this, let them be damned.
I am one of those people who never likes to say "The Bible says". Because the bible it's self is a collection of books and letters. To say "the Bible says" is the equivalent of saying " the library says".

The passage you refer to is from paul's letter to the Galations 1:9. And it is in answer to other Christians with whom he disagrees. Since we don't really know what it was these others were preaching it is difficult to know Pauls context, but it most certainly was refering to his own preaching vs. theirs and not to the Bible as a whole.
 
Upvote 0

GraceSeeker

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2007
4,339
410
USA
✟17,297.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
WRONG. No, my Love, no.
Christianity emphatically does NOT have something to offer for everyone....

The Bible says PLAINLY, If anyone preaches anything other than this, let them be damned.


I'm not sure what scripture text you thought you were quoting, but the actual text is something other than this which you provide above:

For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. (2 Corinthains 11:4, NIV)
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! (Galatians 1:8, NIV)

As you said above:
Show me a book, and I can only describe to you what I see from my view point. You see another view. Another sees yet a different view. But many people describe what they want to see, not what actually is.
I'm not sure what you see as the gospel that Paul preached, but it sure is different than what I see. The Gospel that Paul preached is one of salvation in and through Jesus Christ. What I see is that Paul preached it isn't about our righteousness, but His righteousness that we are saved. That you want to go back to keeping the Old Law with respect to anything, thus including homosexuality, is exactly what Galatians is against. That isn't to say that homosexuality is compatible with scripture or even the New Testament, but that your application of the text to bring about separation in the church misses completely what Paul was talking about and in the end itself preaches a different gospel than that of Jesus Christ. Your post is preaching a different Gospel than that which Paul preached and different than that which I have accepted. I will not abandon it just to win your approval.

Thank-you TheArtguy58, your expression of the Gospel -- "It offers the same forgiveness you yourself spoke of. And it offers it to all. A church may embrace a member who is homosexual without accepting the lifestyle." -- is that which I too read in Paul and believe Jesus himself preached.
 
Upvote 0

Jeremiah's Calling

His Majesties' Royal Ambassador to NE Alabama
Aug 20, 2010
29
4
His Majesties' Royal Embassy in NE AL
✟15,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I debated about answering this but to be honest I felt I had to say a little something


Jeremiah's Calling
You're right in saying Christianity is not a smorgasbord (there's a word I haven't heard in years) but you're wrong to think it does not have something to offer everyone. It offers the same forgiveness you yourself spoke of. And it offers it to all. A church may embrace a member who is homosexual without accepting the lifestyle. How else can the church and its people work to do God's will? Certainly not by turning them away. I hardly see that as something Jesus would do.


No, the church cannot embrace someone who won't repent of sinful behavior. Now, if the believing, repentant person is merely tempted but doesn't act on it or embrace indulging the temptation, that is altogether another matter. Temptation is not a behavior and therefore not a sin in need of repentance. (Besides, that person is not known as a sinner any more. He/she is called Christian.) I am talking about the ones who actively indulge their temptations and who won't give up their sinful lifestyles or who won't admit they're sinful. (These are called sinners.) No, we cannot embrace them as they are still in rebellion. This "hug the devil and pass him communion" attitude has got to be stopped. This attitude and practice is why the UMC is shriveling up. God won't bless false doctrine or sin. He actively works to oppose both. Blessed be the Lord for it.

But so you understand, the unrepentant turn away all by themselves. We mustn't deceive them or allow them to deceive themselves. We must love them enough to tell them the Truth. I'm glad someone told me. It is not wrong to bring out an oft neglected point for emphasis. Jesus Himself preached repentance. It is obligatory. And the unrepentant have no part with the people of God. Do we love them? YES. Do we invite them to church? YES. But do we automatically slap their names on the roll and give them positions in the church? NO. Do we include them in Holy Communion? NO. Holy Communion is for repentant believers ONLY - per Scripture. Does it break our hearts that they are turned away? YES. That compells us to tell them of their need to repent! That is love. That is the grace (prevenient) they need at this step. We mustn't skip this step. Until they experience circumcision of the heart, they have no part in the New Covenant.

A soul MUST admit to sin before mercy can be granted. A soul must realize its need before it can ask for help. A soul that is not lost will never be found. And we are ALL lost without Jesus. There IS a condition to forgiveness. One must have sinned first. Those who don't admit to sin cannot ask to be forgiven. And so their sin remains. So why do you argue with me? I am not wrong.

Furthermore, treating the unrepentant as "OK" with God in their rebellion is a slap in the face to everyone who has repented. You, in essence, are telling the rest of us that our obedience is pointless. The Lord rebuke you for that.

Correction: The Bible is One Word - Jesus. And there is no change in God between Old and New testaments. The only thing that changed: We sacrificed Jesus instead of continuing to slaughter animals. What was wrong then is still wrong now. Sin is that which offends God. God does not change.

I will give you this: Grace and forgiveness are offered to all. But they are given only to the receptive. Unrepentant souls are not receptive to either as they feel no need for either. Do you remember Jesus' parable about the king who brought in beggars from the highways and byways? They all were required to put on clean robes before being allowed to dine. One refused. The king tossed his rebellious backside hungry back out into the street. No compromise. No apology.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Jeremiah's Calling

His Majesties' Royal Ambassador to NE Alabama
Aug 20, 2010
29
4
His Majesties' Royal Embassy in NE AL
✟15,175.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
A-n-y-w-a-y.... back on topic:

I ran across this quote:


"Theological liberalism is a different religion, a religion of moralism and uplift, whereas, Christianity is about sin and grace." - John Gresham Machen (1881 -1937)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GraceSeeker

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2007
4,339
410
USA
✟17,297.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
I am talking about the ones who actively indulge their temptations and who won't give up their sinful lifestyles or who won't admit they're sinful. No, we cannot embrace them as they are still in rebellion.

I do contest your statements. And here is why:

Any sin is to rebellion against God's will for our lives. Now, I believe that I have been called and am attempting to go on to perfection, but I have not yet attained it. As a result, if you were to examine my life you wold have to conclude that (1) I still sin, (2) that these sins are acts of rebellion against God and his will for my life, (3) that while I times I realize them and confess them there are also times when I am oblivious to them and they go unconfessed and unrepented. Thus, I believe that if you were to examine my life you would have to conclude that I am not only tempted, but sometimes give in to those temptations. Whether I always confess it or not, I do live a sinful lifestyle. And though I don't know you personally, I would dare to say that should you look within, that you might be able to say to same thing with regard to yourself.

To my knowledge, not only are none of us without sin in our past, but I know of no one who is so totally free from sin that it is not also a part of our present. We are ALL rebells when it comes to our relationship with God. And yet, he does not cast us out. Rebels though we are, he nonetheless invites us to share in his righteousness and to co-heirs with of Christ, and to part of his holy Church.

Therefore, I can and will embrace "them" (whoever them are) for the same reason that in Christ, God has embraced me (and also you).
 
Upvote 0

GraceSeeker

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2007
4,339
410
USA
✟17,297.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
My preparations for this Sunday's sermon have left me feeling a need to expand a bit more on why I contest statements such as
Unrepentant people living in sin have no part whatsoever with the people of God.
and
No, the church cannot embrace someone who won't repent of sinful behavior.

I'm preaching on Luke 15. The passage begins with a description of description of the pharisees saying the same thing to Jesus that you have said to the church:
1Now the tax collectors and "sinners" were all gathering around to hear him. 2But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, "This man welcomes sinners and eats with them."
Jesus' response was to tell three parables about a God who seeks us even when we are lost sinners. Tax collectors were among those who were ostracized because their work was considered dishonest or immoral. In OT times it was taken for granted that God's people DID NOT consort with sinners, just as you have suggested that the Church of Jesus Christ should not. But what do we see? We see Jesus doing exactly that, and he tells stories to imply that this is the very attitude that God seeks of those who truly follow him, that we would not wait for the lost to come to us, but that we would go seeking them. Even the story of the lost son has the father not giving the son a chance to utter his well-rehearsed confession, but the offering of forgiveness is made first as can be seen by the father being filled with compassion and running to his son, throwing his arms around him and kissing him. The father even ignores the repentance that is ultimately made "I am no longer worthy to be called your son" and offers him not just sonship, but a ceremonial robe reserved for honor guests, a ring signifiying authority, and sandals which were those only a free man would wear.

Furthermore, treating the unrepentant as "OK" with God in their rebellion is a slap in the face to everyone who has repented. You, in essence, are telling the rest of us that our obedience is pointless. The Lord rebuke you for that.
If this is so, then please explain how it is that the Father treated the unrepentant older son with the same grace, for he "went out" to him as he had for the younger son, and he "pleaded" with him rather than scolding. And though the old son is both discourteous and disrespectful of his father, the father still treats him with tender mercy, calling him "my son".

This isn't to excuse the actions of either son, but what we have is a father who shows mercy as a unilateral condition of who he is, not at all dependent on the actions of the sons. The Church can have no different attitude toward sinners today, than God has toward us.

Your post sounds more like the comments of the old son or the pharisees, than of the God we are called to serve and model.
 
Upvote 0

mcswan

Regular Member
Oct 18, 2007
894
117
Connecticut
✟9,187.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I think all of us has thought about this story, and imagined ourselves as either of the two sons, troubled in our conscience about the obvious human failings we share. But as we mature in our faith, Christ calls us to become, not only each of the sons, but also the father. That may be the most difficult role.

[
232323232%7Ffp6327%3A%3Enu%3D6877%3E%3B%3C%3B%3E258%3EWSNRCG%3D32%3C259%3A244349nu0mrj
 
Upvote 0

WiredSpirit

and all God's people said... meh
Jul 5, 2004
1,882
125
39
Evansville
✟2,698.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Tell your friend & tell your pastor, "Repent and submit." Warn them. That would be the loving Christian thing to do! And if the pastor won't listen, flee that church! But warn them both and pray for them!

I'll get right on that ;)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

TheArtguy58

Newbie
Aug 21, 2010
44
14
✟7,734.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Jeremiah's Calling said:
<staff edit>
Interesting.
You sound a great deal more like a Reform Calvinist type than a Wesleyan.
Reminds me of a very nice guy we had at our church for a while who constantly referred to his Reform upbringing. He eventually returned to the Presbyterian church.
Do you attend a UM Church?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0

WiredSpirit

and all God's people said... meh
Jul 5, 2004
1,882
125
39
Evansville
✟2,698.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Interesting.
You sound a great deal more like a Reform Calvinist type than a Wesleyan.
Reminds me of a very nice guy we had at our church for a while who constantly referred to his Reform upbringing. He eventually returned to the Presbyterian church.
Do you attend a UM Church?

I was thinking the whole 'salvation is not for everyone' thing sounded a little Calvinist.
 
Upvote 0

Qyöt27

AMV Editor At Large
Apr 2, 2004
7,879
573
38
St. Petersburg, Florida
✟81,859.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I've tried to restrain myself from posting, because I can just see this spiraling further and further downhill, but this was eating at me.

So basically, is it just me or is this thread devolving into a question pretty much summed up as "Why aren't Methodists Fundamentalist?" Without meaning to be snarky, I'd put that question in the same category as asking why Catholics don't venerate Martin Luther, or like was touched on in the last couple posts, why Arminians don't accept TULIP.

The more important thing to come out of that, though, is where do you draw the line? 'Conservative' - used properly - means traditional. This encompasses a lot, especially when you consider that Methodism originated in the Church of England, and not as an immediate by-product of the Reformation or any product of the Radical Reformation (here's a nice Protestant family tree, or this broader one for Christianity as a whole). By that point alone, it already shares less in common with other big Protestant groups than said groups often do with each other. Fundamentalists often see themselves as the only conservatives there are, except - as those Christian family tree charts show - if conservative means 'traditional', then 'traditional' to what branch? Even despite that, the other point is that even proper traditionalists see fundies as reactionaries, not conservatives (reactionaries being farther right-wing than conservatives are).

So it loops right back around to whose definitions you're trying to use. If you do use Fundamentalism as your conservative litmus test, then of course everyone else will look like raging liberals (ok, that was a little hyperbolic; but those that aren't liberal still get pegged in that category depending on the goalposts you use).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟32,309.00
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Jeremiah's Calling said:
<staff edit>
Jesus called on us to preach to the unrepenetant, or did you miss that? Remember the parable of the lost sheep? Remember Matthew 25? Even a "blatantly unrepenetant" is a child of God.

<staff edit>
God created the world. Loving your enemies is what God tells us to do! Or did you also miss that? There are 2 parts to the Great Commandment: love God and love your neighbors. There is no qualifier there about "love your neighbors only if they are Christian, or repenetant, or clean, or have your skin color, or whatever" The commandment is to love (befriend) our neighbor,no matter what he/she is.


<staff edit>
This sounds like Reformed, not Methodism. I, personally, think befriending people, no matter who they are or their state of salvation, is what is right with Methodism. Christ called us to be inclusive. You are calling us to be exclusive.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.