• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Conservative Christian

Status
Not open for further replies.

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think many Young Earth Creationists are taught that those who don’t accept their particular interpretation of Genesis are liberal, or even nominal, Christians. They are "compromising" Christians who feel the need to please the "World". This is not true, and I am living proof.

I am a Christian.

I am a conservative: morally, religiously and politically.

I vote Republican, oppose abortion, oppose homosexual clergy, and support the war in Iraq.

While I love nature and backpack regularly, I drive a Range Rover and don't get all uptight over it.

I don’t drink, smoke, use drugs or curse.

I do not cater to the World, and I share my faith regularly.

I do not compromise my faith to please those around me.

I attend a fundamentalist Church and have taught Sunday School and led adult Bible Studies.

I believe the Bible is the holy, inerrant Word of God.

I am Spirit-filled and Spirit-led and am as open as I can possibly be to the prompting of the Spirit.

I believe that those who are saved are going to heaven and those who are not are going to hell.

I believe that no man "cometh unto the father but by Jesus"

I believe Man is in a fallen state and needs God’s redemptive gift and that the holy word of God tells us exactly how this redemptive gift works and why we need it.

I believe that every thing in the Bible is true, but not always literal.

I believe that almost every event described in the Bible is based on historical events, but those before Abraham may be, in whole or in part, told with poetic language and may even be allegorical or metaphorical truths for us.

I believe that God Created the Universe and everything in it.

I believe that God most likely used evolution to create the diversity of life we see on this planet.

I believe that nothing in Scripture contradicts either evolution or an Earth that is billions of years old.


So, while it is a "warm fuzzy" for YEC's to relegate a belief in an old earth and evolution to those "liberals" who are bent on watering down Christianity, etc, I beg to differ . . .
 

Chris Green

Regular Member
Jun 26, 2003
2,192
2
47
Birmingham, England
Visit site
✟17,347.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If God said he creted the world in 7 days, but these were each 1000 years, then was Jesus dead for 3000 years as opposed to 3 days?

I think we should take it literally.

By the way, I agree with everything else you say. I admire your standards and unwillingness to compromise you faith.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Chris Green said:
If God said he creted the world in 7 days, but these were each 1000 years, then was Jesus dead for 3000 years as opposed to 3 days?

I think we should take it literally.

By the way, I agree with everything else you say. I admire your standards and unwillingness to compromise you faith.
There are three possibilities for a "day" or "yom" as it is used in Genesis:

1. It does mean a literal 24 hour period, and should be read literally.

2. It is written with the 24-hour period meaning, but the entire passage is either symbolic, allegorical or a metaphor.

3. It is written to mean "a period of time" since this is one of the other definitions of "yom".

Karl thinks it is 2. I think it *could* be 2, but lean toward 3. I do not think 1 is a possibility.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
bump since some YEC's seem to think all non-YEC Christians are liberal, or that a belief in evolution can lead to all kinds of liberal mindedness

Also to let anyone interested to know that I will be away from the boards for a few days. I am going on a cruise with my wife for our anniversary. See you all later!
 
Upvote 0

Buck72

The Watchman
Oct 14, 2003
387
18
53
Charleston, SC
Visit site
✟23,117.00
Faith
Protestant
Vance enjoy your vacation - God's blessings to you.


I will argue the 'yom' again and again:

I typed up my own answer to yom, without study guide or mentor here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t63553&page=12

Here's some more info about "yom" from another source:

Part One of a Series:
Why Six Days?
by Chuck Missler

The Book of Genesis presents a disturbing problem for many Bible-believing Christians. Did God really create the heaven and the earth in just six 24-hour days? How does a serious student of the Torah - the five books of Moses - reconcile the Genesis account with the "billions of years" encountered in the dictums of astronomy, geology, et al?

Many continue to attempt to circumvent the problem by assuming that the six days represent "geological eras," or that the traditional text is simply a rhetorical "framework" for a literary summary of the creative process. Various forms of "theistic evolution" have been contrived in attempts to reconcile the Biblical text with the various theories and conjectures which dominate our evolution-based society.

However, the sincere student cannot escape the confrontations which result from the straightforward reading of the text with the ostensible declarations of "science." How can we deal with these fundamental issues?

Why Is It So Critical?

There are four basic questions that confront all of us: Who am I? Where did I come from? Why am I here? Where am I going when I die?

And your eternal destiny will be determined by your "world view" in addressing these issues. And there are really only two world-views: either everything - including you - is the result of some kind of cosmic accident, or this is all the result of a deliberate design by a Designer.

This issue could not be more fundamental to everything. It comes as a shock to many to discover that every major theme and doctrine in the Bible has its roots in this "Book of Beginnings": sovereign election; salvation, justification by faith, believer's security, separation, disciplinary chastisement, the Divine Incarnation, the "rapture" of the church, death and resurrection, the priesthoods (both Aaronic and Melchizedekian), the Antichrist, and even the Palestinian Covenant that is being challenged by the continuing tensions throughout the world today all have their roots in this critical foundational book of the Bible. And each of these issues also has its consummation in the Book of (the) Revelation. (Like every good textbook, the answers are always in the back!)

Who Really Wrote the Torah?

There are those who have suggested the books of Moses were actually compilations by a number of redactors over the years - the common "Documentary Hypothesis" being one of the most prevalent theories. Fortunately, these previously popular notions have been thoroughly shredded by competent scholarship. But allow me to save you many hours of boring library research. I know who wrote the Books of Moses: Moses did. How do I know? Jesus Christ Himself said so! Many times.1

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? - John 5:45-47

Jesus quotes from each of the books of the Torah and attributes them each to Moses. The New Testament includes 165 direct quotes (and over 200 allusions) to the Book of Genesis, and over 100 of these are from the first 11 chapters. These include the Creator and the creation, 2 (and allusions3), creation of man and woman,4 the fall of man,5 the Flood of Noah,6 etc. So if you believe in Jesus Christ, you have no problem as to who wrote the Book of Genesis. (And if you don't believe in Jesus Christ, you have much bigger problems than the authorship of Genesis!)

But "Six Days"?

The account of the creation of the universe in six days still is a "bone in the throat" to many Christians. Many point out that the word for "day" is yom , and is translated to 54 other words; however, 1181 of 1480 occurrences it is "day," and when used with a number it is always a literal day. But the real problem isn't the account in Genesis. It is in Exodus. In the middle of the Ten Commandments, the Creator Himself wrote it with His own finger in stone!

For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11

It is undeniable that God intended us to understand that it was, indeed, six literal days. So how do we deal with the common understanding that "billions of years" was involved? How do we deal with the astronomical distances of millions of "light years" between the galaxies of the universe? Can anyone familiar with the discoveries of modern science take the Genesis account seriously?

It may come as a pleasant surprise to discover that the more you know about modern science - the real physics, not the mythology and conjectures that masquerade as "science" - the more you can take the Biblical text seriously. The Lord always rewards the diligent. (A recent book includes articles by fifty top scientists - from many different fields of specialization - who declare why they believe in a literal six-day creation. 7)

Continued next post...
 
  • Like
Reactions: FEZZILLA
Upvote 0

Buck72

The Watchman
Oct 14, 2003
387
18
53
Charleston, SC
Visit site
✟23,117.00
Faith
Protestant
...continued

The Nature of Time

One of the many advantages that 20th century science has given us is that, thanks to Dr. Albert Einstein's brilliant discoveries, we now know that time is a physical property and is subject to mass, acceleration, and gravity. We have come to realize that we live in a four-dimensional continuum properly known as "space-time." (This is what Paul seems to imply in his letter to the Ephesians!8) It is interesting that when one takes the apparent 1012 expansion factor involved in the theories of the "expanding universe," that an assumed 16 billion years reduce to six days!

Furthermore, the astronomical timetables now seem to be entirely overturned with the reluctant acknowledgments that the speed of light is not longer regarded as the constant that the high priests of physics had been previously convinced of.

The Nature of Light

Not only have recent scientific articles highlighted the discoveries that the speed of light has changed over the centuries (something that Barry Setterfield has been declaring for decades) the very nature of light has ripped open the entire world of quantum physics that has shattered our concepts of reality itself.

The changes in the velocity of light not only impacts our understanding of the astronomical distances and properties, it affects the atomic behavior involved in the red shift of spectra, the reliability of radiological dating, etc. It is the peculiar properties of photons themselves that continue to astonish the quantum physicists wrestling with the very nature of our physical existence. It is now recognized that subatomic particles lack a property known as "locality." All subatomic particles are now understood to be immediately connected. There is a simultaneity - a "non-locality" - among all photons that has been confirmed in the laboratory. It now appears that our entire universe may actually be a gigantic hologram of some kind. 9

The Fabric of Space

Most of us assume that space is simply an empty vacuum with nothing "in it." However, it is increasingly evident that even empty space has astonishing properties that have yet to be fully understood. We now know that this "firmament," (raqia ) which the Scripture presents, possesses electromagnetic properties including dielectric permittivity, magnetic permeability, an intrinsic impedance,10 and has an astonishing "zero-point" energy sufficient to keep all the electrons in the entire universe in their orbits.11 The term "stretching the heavens" appears at least 17 times in the Scriptures.12

According to the Scriptures, the heavens can be "torn,"13 "worn out" like a garment,14 "shaken,"15 "burnt up,"16 "split apart" like a scroll,17 rolled up" like a mantle 18 or a scroll.19 The concept of being "rolled up" carries some additional insights. There must be some dimension in which space is "thin." If space can be "bent," there must be a direction it can be bent toward. Thus, this tells us that there must be additional dimensions beyond those of space itself. It is now understood that we live in even more than four dimensions: ten dimensions is the current estimate (which is precisely what Nachmonides concluded in his commentary on Genesis back in the 13th century!) The more we understand from the current perspectives of modern physics, the more comfortable we are with the chronicle in Genesis One.

The Architecture of the Solar System

The more we study our solar system, the more questions get raised. Here, too, the prevailing assumptions that are broadly taught are totally specious. The "Nebular Hypothesis," that the planets were somehow thrown off by the sun, is mathematically untenable. There is no plausible explanation that would support a solar origin of the planets. The sun contains 99.86% of all the mass of the solar system, and yet contains only 1.9% of the angular momentum. The nine planets contain 98.1%. Furthermore, the outer planets are far larger than the inner ones. (Jupiter is 5,750 times as massive as mercury, 2,958 times as massive as Mars, etc.)

There are many other provocative enigmas concerning our planetary history:

o There are three pairs of rapid-spin rates among our planets: Mars and Earth, Jupiter and Saturn, and Neptune and Uranus, are each within 3% of each other. Why?

o Earth and Mars have virtually identical spin axis tilts (about 23.5°). Why? (From angular momentum and orbital calculations, it would seem that the three pairs of these planets may have been brought here from elsewhere.)

o Why does Mars have 93% of its craters in one hemisphere and only 7% in the other? It would appear that over 80% occurred within a single half-hour!

It's almost as if God designed it to challenge any naturalistic hypotheses!

"Evening" and "Morning"?

The Hebrew terms, Erev,and Boker, now refer to "evening" and "morning" but their origins remain obscure. Erev designates obscuration, mixture (increasing entropy). The time when encroaching darkness begins to deny the ability to discern forms, shapes, and identities; thus, it becomes a term for twilight or evening.20 This also marks the duration of impurity, when a ceremonially unclean person became clean again,21 and thus, the beginning of the Hebrew day.

Boker is a designation for becoming discernible, distinguishable, visible; perception of order; relief of obscurity (decreasing entropy). It thus is associated with being able to begin to discern forms, shapes, and distinct identities; breaking forth of light; revealing; hence, denotatively, dawn, morning. (As traditional designations for the Hebrew day, technically it would seem to only designate the nighttime hours, but it is used connotatively for the entire calendar day.)

It is noteworthy that neither of these are recorded on the seventh day, and thus their original significance may have been to designate the increments of creation.

Other Issues

There are other questions that arise from the Genesis narrative. When was the earth created? It seems to have preceded the rest of the universe. Surprisingly, there are some cosmologists that are (again) beginning to suspect that the universe may be geocentric after all! How did plants (3rd day) flourish without the sun's photosynthesis (4th day)? When were the angels created? (They apparently witnessed the events of Genesis 1.) 22 When did Satan fall? He had apparently already fallen by Chapter 3.

As we explore these, and other, enigmas that emerge from the Biblical text, let us not confuse the precision of the text with conjectures and mythology that pervades our pagan culture and uninformed classrooms. (It's tragic that we can't insist on evidence-based education for our children rather than the foolishness and dogma that continues to strip them of their God-fearing heritage.)

But the more acquainted you become with the amazing discoveries and insights from the frontiers of science - and are able to dismiss the nonsense that prevails among the uninformed - the more comfortable the Genesis text becomes! We plan to continue this series of articles in the unmitigated aspiration of stimulating you to dig ever deeper into God's inerrant Word!


* * *
We invite you to join us as we go verse by verse through the Book of Genesis. This foundational 24-week study will begin in January, 2004 through our K-Rations tape a week subscription plan as well as through our Berean Online Fellowship.




This article was originally published in the
November 2003 Personal Update NewsJournal.
Notes: [RETURN TO TEXT]

  1. Matthew 8:4; 19:7,8; 23:2; Mark 1:44; 10:3,4; 7:10; Luke 5:14; 16:19, 31; 20:37; 24:27,44; John 3:14; 5:39,45,46; 6:32; 7:19, 22,23.
  2. Matthew 13:35; Mark 13:19; John 1:3; Acts 4:24; 14:15; Romans 1:20; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:10; 11:3.
  3. Romans 1:25; 16:25; Ephesians 3:9; 1 Timothy 4:4; Hebrews 2:10; 4:10; 9:26; James 3:9; Revelation 3:14; 4:11; 10:6; 14:7.
  4. Matthew 19:4-6, 8; Mark 10:6; Acts 17:26; 1 Corinthians 6:16; 11:8,9; Ephesians 5:31; 1 Timothy 2:13, 14; Revelation 2:7; 22:2, 14.
  5. Romans 5:11, 14, 17, 19; 8:19-20; 1 Corinthians 15:21-22; 2 Corinthians 11:3; Revelation 20:2.
  6. Matthew 24:37; Luke 17:26; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 2:5; 3:5-61.
  7. John F. Ashton, In Six Days , Master Books, Green Forest AR, 2001.
  8. Ephesians 3:18.
  9. Cf. "Information in the Holographic Universe," Scientific American , August 2003.
  10. Any radio ham that has had to tune an antenna array knows about the 377 ohms.
  11. It has been estimated at a staggering 1.071 x 10117 kilowatts per square meter!
  12. 2 Samuel 22:10; Job 9:8; 26:7; 37:18; Psalm 18:9; 104:2; 144:5; Isaiah 40:22; 42:5; 44:24; 45:12; 48:13; 51:13; Jeremiah 10:12; 51:15; Ezekiel 1:22; Zechariah 12:1.
  13. Isaiah 64:1.
  14. Psalm 102:25.
  15. Hebrews 12:26, Haggai 2:6, Isaiah 13:13.
  16. 2 Peter 3:12.
  17. Revelation 6:14.
  18. Hebrews 1:12.
  19. Isaiah 34:4.
  20. Proverbs 7:9; Jeremiah 6:4.
  21. Leviticus 15.
  22. Job 4:7.
 
Upvote 0

Buck72

The Watchman
Oct 14, 2003
387
18
53
Charleston, SC
Visit site
✟23,117.00
Faith
Protestant
In follow-up from post 1:

The conflict from YEC (I hate that term, though I fit the category of "literalist") is this:

There is great danger is discounting the word because of notional world views that do not fit within a literal interpretation. Every challenge that non-literalists seem to raise up is easily answered literally from the Bible...there is no reason to take the Bible non-literally, and in so doing you only open yourself up to "every wind of doctrine" without a leg to stand on when new "evidence" pops up refuting scripture...remember the "faith" of Hebrews 11.

*Liberalism is spawned from non-literal biblical reasoning. That is why we have a "cloud of witnesses" applauding a gay bishop when the word tells us clearly that is not acceptable. Not good, definitely not good.
 
Upvote 0

Chi_Cygni

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2003
954
25
From parts unknown
✟1,221.00
Faith
Anglican
Literalism falls down at every almost every challenge it faces.

It is only a minority of Christians that believe that.

Some 90% + of the world's Christians do not believe a literal Bible.

In fact I could not be a Christian if I had to accept a literal (every word) Bible.

I mean seriously how does literalism get around the fact of stating hares being ruminants? (when they are not)

There are so many errors in the biblical geneologies, mathematical errors, scientific nonsense.

To rest your faith on Biblical literalism is to pin in on a mist of fantasies.

The twists of logic and downright lies needed to maintain a literal Bible goes not only against the tenets of the faith BUT it makes the individual perform mental machinations that they would not do in everyday life.

If a supposedly non-ficiton book on just about any subject required you to do the mental gymnastics the literal reading of the Bible requires, everyone would throw the book away as being worthless.

Yet when it comes to the Bible, people employ different standards of reason that they don't apply to anything else.

*** News just in ***

You don't need a literal Bible to be a Christian, in fact a literal Bible I think requires you to actually act in a non-Christian manner - it is a fine line between literal Bible and Bible worship becoming your false idol
 
Upvote 0
A

Ark Guy

Guest
Vance said:
I think many Young Earth Creationists are taught that those who don’t accept their particular interpretation of Genesis are liberal, or even nominal, Christians. They are "compromising" Christians who feel the need to please the "World". This is not true, and I am living proof.

I am a Christian.

I am a conservative: morally, religiously and politically.

I vote Republican, oppose abortion, oppose homosexual clergy, and support the war in Iraq.

While I love nature and backpack regularly, I drive a Range Rover and don't get all uptight over it.

I don’t drink, smoke, use drugs or curse.

I do not cater to the World, and I share my faith regularly.

I do not compromise my faith to please those around me.

I attend a fundamentalist Church and have taught Sunday School and led adult Bible Studies.

I believe the Bible is the holy, inerrant Word of God.

I am Spirit-filled and Spirit-led and am as open as I can possibly be to the prompting of the Spirit.

I believe that those who are saved are going to heaven and those who are not are going to hell.

I believe that no man "cometh unto the father but by Jesus"

I believe Man is in a fallen state and needs God’s redemptive gift and that the holy word of God tells us exactly how this redemptive gift works and why we need it.

I believe that every thing in the Bible is true, but not always literal.

I believe that almost every event described in the Bible is based on historical events, but those before Abraham may be, in whole or in part, told with poetic language and may even be allegorical or metaphorical truths for us.

I believe that God Created the Universe and everything in it.

I believe that God most likely used evolution to create the diversity of life we see on this planet.

I believe that nothing in Scripture contradicts either evolution or an Earth that is billions of years old.


So, while it is a "warm fuzzy" for YEC's to relegate a belief in an old earth and evolution to those "liberals" who are bent on watering down Christianity, etc, I beg to differ . . .
[noflame]

Jay
CF Moderator
 
Upvote 0

Chi_Cygni

Well-Known Member
Nov 10, 2003
954
25
From parts unknown
✟1,221.00
Faith
Anglican
I don't care if this gets deleted but Ark Guy you sound like a complete buffoon.

Why don't you go to the teenager forums where you can interact with others your age.

You are so obviously out of your league in an adult forum.

Of course you have me on ignore but I thought I would post anyway.
 
Upvote 0

Late_Cretaceous

<font color="#880000" ></font&g
Apr 4, 2002
1,965
118
Visit site
✟25,525.00
Faith
Catholic
Are you attacking Mormonism Ark Guy?

How dare you attack ANY other religion - christian or not (Mormons ARE christians BTW).

I am not a mormon, I don't believe in any of the "latter day saint" stuff. However - I would never put down their religion or members of that chruch.

The fact that you have to go around attacking other religions, and individuals who hold opinions counter to yours only shows that you have already lost the debate long ago.

Stop flinging mud, and either bow out of this debate with some shed of dignity, or start behaving yourself in a responsible, intelligent and Christian manner.

Please
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Listen, it is really not that complicated for me.

The evidence for an old earth, billions of years old, is so overwhelming that to disbelieve it is simply perverse stubborness and even greater hubris than the adamant geocentrist position.

I also always start with a literal reading of Scripture unless it is clear that a literal reading can not be what was intended (not by the scribal writer but by God). If there is any way to read Genesis one literally in a way that is consistent with the evidence that the Earth is billions of years old, I am all for it.

My point is that I am also perfectly fine with the Scripture being read non-literally. Scripture is still wholly true and HOLY TRUTH even if God told it to us in allegorical or symbolic language.

So, if it is literal and consistent with an old earth, great. If it is allegorical, that is fine as well. The point is that YEC's going around spouting that the earth is actually only 10,000 years old is so patently contrary to vast weight of the evidence that it can only damage the Christian message. So why do it?
 
Upvote 0

Late_Cretaceous

<font color="#880000" ></font&g
Apr 4, 2002
1,965
118
Visit site
✟25,525.00
Faith
Catholic
Buck

I found your "Fabric of Space" section very interesting. Indeed, a total vacuum is still a dynamic place. It is the fabric of space which imparts many of the properties of matter to the particles that exist in it (mass for example).

I also appreciate the way you have tied it into scripture. I am not saying I agree with it or disagree with it, but it is very interesting to me.

However, that is definitely NOT a literal interpretation is it. It can only bee seen that way in retrospect of modern scientific knowledge. In order for that to be the result of literal interpetation, we would have expected people to understand the notion of "the fabric of spacetime" prior to any scientific discoveries.

If anything, you have provided support to the non-literalist side of the debate.
 
Upvote 0

Vance

Contributor
Jul 16, 2003
6,666
264
59
✟30,780.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To follow up on that thought, LC, if we accept that all the evidence does, indeed, point to an old earth and an even older universe (which this article concedes, contrary to typical YEC teaching), then either it is simply THAT old, or some "looks that old, but is not really" concept is true. The ONLY reason to even consider the latter is in an effort to correspond to a literal reading of a six 24-hour day creation and the genealogies. These theories and concepts are ONLY needed to explain the data if you insist on that reading of the text, no scientist who does NOT hold to such a literal reading is going to think such a theory more likely than the simple fact that the universe is really that old.

Since I can fully accept a non-literal reading without it effecting any theological truths, or a literal reading with a different definition for YOM and "morning and evening", both of which approaches are consistent with "the earth really is that old", I find this dramatically more likely.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.