connecting the dots...

[visionary]

At the transfiguration, Moses appears with Elijah and visits with Yeshua, which I believe shows the intimate relationship these three had. Who better to connect with than your closest friends, especially when a critical decision has to be made, and words of comfort in the direction this is going will help bolster up the resolve.

 

[AbbaLove]

I took the uncapitalized him you put in red as Moses.

That's what i came to realize while formalizing my reply, but left it stand to see what you would say.

Was disappointed to see that you edited those two translations to make it look like such translations actually existed. It wasn't that long ago that you posted a comment saying it didn't bother you that translations don't capitalize "he" and "him" when referring to Yeshua/Jesus.

The problem it creates is when both you and gadar come across as both born again with the indwelling presence of His Spirit as your Teacher and yet you both can't be right when you disagree on a major issue as to whether or not Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God/Elohim/YHWH/YHVH Incarnate.

Will side with Chunkofcoal on the interpretation of Acts 7:38 as being Moses and not "He" being Yeshua as you believe.​

Acts 7:38
This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to "him" (Moses) in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​

If as you believe that He refers to Yeshua then for further clarification the verse would say Moses instead of "him" ... However, that is not the case as "he" and "him" are referring to the same person ... that being Moses.

Acts 7:38 (should be interpreted as follows)
This is Moses, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him (Moses) in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​

 

[visionary]

John 1:17 Torah was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah.

Isn't Torah the truth and grace gospel that Yeshua taught.. then and again when He walked the earth?

 

[visionary]

​

That's what i came to realize while formalizing my reply, but left it stand to see what you would say.

Was disappointed to see that you edited those two translations to make it look like such translations actually existed. It wasn't that long ago that you posted a comment saying it didn't bother you that translations don't capitalize "he" and "him" when referring to Yeshua/Jesus.

The problem it creates is when both you and gadar come across as both born again with the indwelling presence of His Spirit as your Teacher and yet you both can't be right when you disagree on a major issue as to whether or not Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God/Elohim/YHWH/YHVH Incarnate.

Will side with Chunkofcoal on the interpretation of Acts 7:38 as being Moses and not "He" being Yeshua as you believe.​

Acts 7:38
This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to "him" (Moses) in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​

If as you believe that He refers to Yeshua then for further clarification the verse would say Moses instead of "him" ... However, that is not the case as "he" and "him" are referring to the same person ... that being Moses.

Acts 7:38 (should be interpreted as follows)
This is Moses, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him (Moses) in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:​

Show me scripture that capitalizes those pronouns that are about God or Yeshua? As to the point you made regarding the "he" and "him" in the same sentence.. I will have to give it further thought.

I am not worried about the leadings of the Holy Spirit on any single matter for another believer, for we are all lead, each in his own time and in his own spiritual walk... somethings come sooner and are more important for different believers... but we all will know Him who is leading us.

 

[Open Heart]

The Son [Yeshua] given the titles Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, and the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6). I often think we forget that when we argue that it was the Father on Mount Sinai and not the Son.

I have studied this verse for a great many years, searching out numerous translations and talking to many rabbis. This is what I have come to understand:

Because Hebrew doesn't use "to be" as a linking verb, we mistakenly insert commas instead of understand that these titles are attributes of God. The best translation (mine) would be more along the lines of :
"A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting Father is the prince of peace." I am absolutely convinced of this.

 

[visionary]

I have studied this verse for a great many years, searching out numerous translations and talking to many rabbis. This is what I have come to understand:

Because Hebrew doesn't use "to be" as a linking verb, we mistakenly insert commas instead of understand that these titles are attributes of God. The best translation (mine) would be more along the lines of :
"A wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting Father is the prince of peace." I am absolutely convinced of this.

Now just add the first part of the sentence... THE SON was given the titles....

 

[Open Heart]

Now just add the first part of the sentence... THE SON was given the titles....

Yes. The name of the son is, "a wonderful counselor is the mighty God, the everlasting Father is the prince of peace."

While this fits with Yeshua, it does not make this a verse "proving he is God." It certainly avoids the problem of him being called the Father, which he is not. And since the verse also applies to an earthly son(the prophecy has a double meaning) it is not blasphemous.

 

[AbbaLove]

Show me scripture that capitalizes those pronouns that are about God or Yeshua?

The NKJV isn't the only translation that capitalizes "Him" and "He" when referring to God and Yeshua. However, none of these translations including the NKJV capitalizes "him" or "he" in Acts 7:37-38. We both agree that when these personal pronouns are Capitalized it's an indication that Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate.

However, there isn't a translation that capitalizes "him" in Acts 7:37 or "he" in Acts 7:38, and certainly not the KJB and AKJV that you altered the text to deceive us into thinking it's a reference to Yeshua. This is how the text of the KJB and AKJV (translations you edited) actually reads before you altered the text ...

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. (KJB)
38 "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give to us:" (AKJV)​

These same two verses after you altered the text to support your belief ...

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; HIM shall ye hear. (KJB)
38 This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (AKJV)​

Why didn't you use all CAPITALS for LORD and only capitalize Him as long as you decided it was alright for you to alter the text?

I am not worried about the leadings of the Holy Spirit on any single matter for another believer, for we are all lead, each in his own time and in his own spiritual walk... somethings come sooner and are more important for different believers... but we all will know Him who is leading us.

Both you and gadar believe you are being lead by His presence and yet in thread after thread for months if not years and still you both differ on whether or not Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate. Yet you will keep posting threads as if you believe you can change his mind; while he posts "My gloves are on until the day I die for I fight for what I know is true."

​

Was His presence leading you to alter the above scripture to give it a different meaning than is interpreted by the NKJV and other translations that do use Caps when it's appropriate to reference God and Yeshua ?

It helps to compare translations before you start altering text to justify your beliefs.

35 It was this very Moses whom they had denied (disowned and rejected), saying, Who made you our ruler (referee) and judge? whom God sent to be a ruler and deliverer and redeemer, by and with the [protecting and helping] hand of the Angel that appeared to him in the bramblebush.
36 He it was who led them forth, having worked wonders and signs in Egypt and at the Red Sea and during the forty years in the wilderness (desert).
37 It was this [very] Moses who said to the children of Israel, God will raise up for you a Prophet from among your brethren as He raised me up.
38 This is he who in the assembly in the wilderness (desert) was the go-between for the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and our forefathers, and he received living oracles (words that still live) to be handed down to us. (AMPC)​

In the context of these verses i can readily see why you capitalized "He" in verse 38. When one considers "He raised up me" at the end of verse 37, it stands to reason that "This is He" at the beginning of verse 38 should also be capitalized. Maybe, just maybe, His presence is leading you more than most translators when it comes to whether "This is he" would better read as "This is He" at the beginning of verse 38.

 

[chunkofcoal]

I am not worried about the leadings of the Holy Spirit on any single matter for another believer, for we are all lead, each in his own time and in his own spiritual walk... somethings come sooner and are more important for different believers... but we all will know Him who is leading us.

 

[visionary]

​

The NKJV isn't the only translation that capitalizes "Him" and "He" when referring to God and Yeshua. However, none of these translations including the NKJV capitalizes "him" or "he" in Acts 7:37-38. We both agree that when these personal pronouns are Capitalized it's an indication that Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate.

However, there isn't a translation that capitalizes "him" in Acts 7:37 or "he" in Acts 7:38, and certainly not the KJB and AKJV that you altered the text to deceive us into thinking it's a reference to Yeshua. This is how the text of the KJB and AKJV (translations you edited) actually reads before you altered the text ...

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. (KJB)
38 "This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spoke to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give to us:" (AKJV)​

These same two verses after you altered the text to support your belief ...

37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; HIM shall ye hear. (KJB)
38 This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us: (AKJV)​

Why didn't you use all CAPITALS for LORD and only capitalize Him as long as you decided it was alright for you to alter the text?

​

Both you and gadar believe you are being lead by His presence and yet in thread after thread for months if not years and still you both differ on whether or not Yeshua is the physical manifestation of God Incarnate. Yet you will keep posting threads as if you believe you can change his mind; while he posts "My gloves are on until the day I die for I fight for what I know is true."

​

Was His presence leading you to alter the above scripture to give it a different meaning than is interpreted by the NKJV and other translations that do use Caps when it's appropriate to reference God and Yeshua ?

It helps to compare translations before you start altering text to justify your beliefs.

35 It was this very Moses whom they had denied (disowned and rejected), saying, Who made you our ruler (referee) and judge? whom God sent to be a ruler and deliverer and redeemer, by and with the [protecting and helping] hand of the Angel that appeared to him in the bramblebush.
36 He it was who led them forth, having worked wonders and signs in Egypt and at the Red Sea and during the forty years in the wilderness (desert).
37 It was this [very] Moses who said to the children of Israel, God will raise up for you a Prophet from among your brethren as He raised me up.
38 This is he who in the assembly in the wilderness (desert) was the go-between for the Angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and our forefathers, and he received living oracles (words that still live) to be handed down to us. (AMPC)​

In the context of these verses i can readily see why you capitalized "He" in verse 38. When one considers "He raised up me" at the end of verse 37, it stands to reason that "This is He" at the beginning of verse 38 should also be capitalized. Maybe, just maybe, His presence is leading you more than most translators when it comes to whether "This is he" would better read as "This is He" at the beginning of verse 38.

The alteration was for emphasis, and I apologize if I gave anyone the impression that it was a deception on my part.

 

[visionary]

Beginning with the first gospel promise, and coming down through centuries from the patriarchs to our present time, there has been a gradual unfolding of the purposes of God in the plan of redemption. The Saviour typified in the rites and ceremonies is the same that is revealed in the gospel. The clouds that enveloped His divine form have rolled back; the mists and shades have disappeared; and Yeshua, the world’s Redeemer, stands revealed. He who proclaimed the law from Sinai, and delivered to Moses the precepts of the law, is the same who spoke the Sermon on the Mount. The great principles of love to God, which He set forth as the foundation of the law and the prophets, are only a reiteration of what He had spoken through Moses to the Hebrew people: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Do you not see Him, our Creator, our Redeemer has been with us through out all the centuries?
Why else is it written.... two different ways for the same commandments...

Here is this verse He is revealed as our Redeemer....

Deut 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the Lord thy God hath commanded thee. 13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work: 14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou. 15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day.

Here is this verse He is revealed as our Creator....

Exodus 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Who is our Creator and Redeemer? Yeshua

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him.

Heb 1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Heb 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.

 

[AbbaLove]

​

 

[AbbaLove]

deleted

 

[gadar perets]

Steven's entire speech is all about connecting the dots... to show that Yeshua has been with them the whole way... When he said "this is he" he meant "this is Yeshua"

Acts 7:38
This is He, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

He received the living oracles from His father to give to Moses.

I replied to this in another thread, but evidently you did not accept the truth at that time. So I will repost it with some additional info.

Stephen begins recounting the life of Moses in Acts 7:20 and continues through verse 44.

Acts 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
​

Here Stephen identifies the subject as Moses and then proclaims something about him.

Acts 7:37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
​

Here Stephen identifies the subject as Moses and then proclaims something about him.

Acts 7:38 This is he [Moses], that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him [Moses - the angel did not speak to Yeshua. Actually, Christians falsely believe and teach that the angel was Yeshua who was speaking to Moses] in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
​

Here Stephen continues to speak about Moses.

If the "he" in verse 38 refers to Yeshua, then who is the "angel" referring to? Are you saying Yeshua was "with the angel" and it was that angel "which spoke to him [Moses]"?

Yeshua did not receive the lively oracles to give to Moses. Moses received them to give unto "us" [Israel].

 

[visionary]

Having an angel with Yeshua speaking to Moses sounds fine to me.

 

[gadar perets]

Having an angel with Yeshua speaking to Moses sounds fine to me.

The problem is that we don't see that in Exodus 3. All we see is an angel with Moses. Your bad habit of reading whatever you want into the text is extremely dangerous, not only for you, but for those who read you.

 

[visionary]

The problem is that we don't see that in Exodus 3. All we see is an angel with Moses. Your bad habit of reading whatever you want into the text is extremely dangerous, not only for you, but for those who read you.

Except what the Lord has shown me...