connecting the dots...

[visionary]

Another connection between Pentecost and God’s redemptive work is that at Sinai Yeshua had made a covenant with the Israelites by giving them the Torah both in the tablets of the Ten Commandments and in the writing of the five books of Moses. According to 1 Corinthians 15:25 and 1 John 3:8, “one great design of God in the affair of redemption was to reduce and subdue those enemies of God till they should all be put under God's feet” which is Yeshua's job. You can not put them all under God's feet, unless the people are subservient to God's Will through the TEN. The first thing you do is teach the people, guide the people, and it is all part of the redemption plan.

In Jerusalem, the Holy Spirit wrote the law on the hearts of people in fulfillment of the prophecy of Jeremiah 31:33, part of the new covenant being unfolded by Yeshua and explained and experienced by the disciples. God’s design was “perfectly to restore all the ruins of the fall,” including both souls and body of elect men, and the physical world, so that there is a new heavens and a new earth (Isaiah 65:17) with Yeshua as King. Yeshua isn't just granted that authority or position without purpose.

God aims “to bring all elect creatures in heaven and earth to an union one to another, in one body under one head, and to unite all together in one body to God the Father” (Ephesians 1:11) and that body is in Yeshua. From start to finish Yeshua has been intimately involved in the process.

It was Yeshua's design to glorify the Father (John 13:31–32; 17:1) It is His work from beginning to end and that is why He is called the Alpha and Omega. Yeshua conquering evil, restoring the world, uniting all things, beautifying the elect, and glorifying the Godhead, will have all crowns thrown at His feet and He throws His crown at God's feet.

 

[visionary]

Hebrews 12:25
25 See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven:

Who is Him?

 

[AbbaLove]

Hebrews 12:25
25 See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven:
Who is Him?

Several translations don't capitalize him/he including: D-RB, NIV,
ESV, KJV, JUB, YLT.
​

Hebrews 12:26-27 (Lexham English Bible)
26 whose voice shook the earth at that time, but now he has promised, saying,

“Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also heaven.”[a]​

27 Now the phrase “yet once more” indicates the removal of what is shaken, namely, things that have been created, in order that the things that are not shaken may remain.

[a] Haggai 2:6 ~ For thus says Yahweh of hosts: ‘Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and dry land. (Lexham English Bible)

Adonai-Tzva’ot ~ Complete Jewish Bible
LORD of hosts ~ JPS 1917
LORD of Hosts ~ JPS 1985
​

 

[visionary]

Several translations don't capitalize him/he including: D-RB, NIV,
ESV, KJV, JUB, YLT.
​

Hebrews 12:26-27 (Lexham English Bible)
26 whose voice shook the earth at that time, but now he has promised, saying,

“Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also heaven.”[a]​

27 Now the phrase “yet once more” indicates the removal of what is shaken, namely, things that have been created, in order that the things that are not shaken may remain.

[a] Haggai 2:6 ~ For thus says Yahweh of hosts: ‘Once again, in a little while, I will shake the heavens and the earth and the sea and dry land. (Lexham English Bible)

Adonai-Tzva’ot ~ Complete Jewish Bible
LORD of hosts ~ JPS 1917
LORD of Hosts ~ JPS 1985
​

I am not worried about translators not capitalizing, as HIM, HE is not usually capitalized by many, but I like to capitalize to emphase whom I am seeing in the verse. But is your post an indication from you "Yahweh of hosts" is known as Yeshua?

 

[AbbaLove]

I am not worried about translators not capitalizing, as HIM, HE is not usually capitalized by many, but I like to capitalize to emphase whom I am seeing in the verse. But is your post an indication from you "Yahweh of hosts" is known as Yeshua?

Adonai-Tzva’ot ... Isra’el’s King and Redeemer, I am the first, and last; besides me there is no God (see Isaiah 43:11, Isaiah 44:6, Isaiah 45:5).

LORD of Hosts ... In the TaNaKh, the name Yahweh and the title Elohim frequently occur with the word tzevaot or sabaoth ("hosts" or "armies", Hebrew: צבאות) ... as YHWH Elohe Tzevaot ("YHWH God of Hosts"), Elohe Tzevaot ("God of Hosts"), Adonai YHWH Tzevaot("Lord YHWH of Hosts") or, most frequently, YHWH Tzevaot ("YHWH of Hosts").

"Connecting the dots" is open to MJ interpretation when using all Caps in the TaNaKh such as with LORD implying YHWH (Hashem). However, in the NT the implication of LORD (all CAPS) is also a reference to Yeshua/Immanuel ...

Revelation 19:16 ...
And on his robe and on his thigh he has a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (CJB)
And he has on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. (JUB)
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, “KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.” (NASB)
and he hath upon the garment and upon his thigh the name written, `King of kings, and Lord of lords.' (YLT)​

Something else to consider is Revelation 19:12 ...

His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many diadems; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. (NASB)​

If as some MJs believe that no one can see YHWH and live ... so then the above verse IMO is referring to the Son of God as LORD.

Got a question for you: When you see Adonai used in various English translatons of the TaNaKh do you think of Adonai (LORD) as representing both YHWH and Yeshua or just YHWH (Hashem)?

 

[pinacled]

Hebrews 12:25
25 See that ye refuse not Him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused Him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from Him that speaketh from heaven:

Who is Him?

“The days are coming,” says Adonai
when I will raise a righteous Branch for David.
He will reign as king and succeed,
he will do what is just and right in the land.
6 In his days Y’hudah will be saved,
Isra’el will live in safety,
and the name given to him will be
Adonai Tzidkenu [Adonai our righteousness].

 

[visionary]

Got a question for you: When you see Adonai used in various English translatons of the TaNaKh do you think of Adonai (LORD) as representing both YHWH and Yeshua or just YHWH (Hashem)?

Yes... If they are talking "body or flesh of God" it is Yeshua.. if not, then they are talking about God Himself.

 

[AbbaLove]

Yes... If they are talking "body or flesh of God" it is Yeshua.. if not, then they are talking about God Himself.

So is this differentiation your answer to "connecting the dots ..." ?​

So, with Yeshua being the physical manifestation of YHVH (John 1:1-4, 14) and YHVH being the supernatural Spiritual manifestation in Yeshua (John 14:7-9) aren't both "God Himself" ... take for example Isaiah 25:9 ...

In that day they shall say: This is our God; We trusted in Him, and He delivered us.
This is the LORD, in whom we trusted; Let us rejoice and exult in His deliverance!
(JPS 1985)

On that day they will say, “See! This is our God! We waited for him to save us. This
is Adonai ; we put our hope in him. We are full of joy, so glad he saved us!”
(CJB)​

YHWH and Yeshua are joint heirs in the above scripture of Isaiah 25:9? Some may believe that this scripture refers as much or more to the "body or flesh of God" as Israel's deliverer. Others will contend that this verse refers to YHVH (Hashem) who saves/delivers His chosen people without manifesting a physical presence.

Doesn't this verse refer to both or do Messianics have to decide whether ... "body or flesh of God" it is Yeshua.. if not, then they are talking about God Himself. Do you think Isaiah 25:9 is a reference to Yeshua or to God Himself or to both ?

 

[visionary]

​

So is this differentiation your answer to "connecting the dots ..." ?​

So, with Yeshua being the physical manifestation of YHVH (John 1:1-4, 14) and YHVH being the supernatural Spiritual manifestation in Yeshua (John 14:7-9) aren't both "God Himself" ... take for example Isaiah 25:9 ...

In that day they shall say: This is our God; We trusted in Him, and He delivered us.
This is the LORD, in whom we trusted; Let us rejoice and exult in His deliverance!
(JPS 1985)

On that day they will say, “See! This is our God! We waited for him to save us. This
is Adonai ; we put our hope in him. We are full of joy, so glad he saved us!”
(CJB)​

YHWH and Yeshua are joint heirs in the above scripture of Isaiah 25:9? Some may believe that this scripture refers as much or more to the "body or flesh of God" as Israel's deliverer. Others will contend that this verse refers to YHVH (Hashem) who saves/delivers His chosen people without manifesting a physical presence.

Doesn't this verse refer to both or do Messianics have to decide whether ... "body or flesh of God" it is Yeshua.. if not, then they are talking about God Himself. Do you think Isaiah 25:9 is a reference to Yeshua or to God Himself or to both ?

Yeshua is YHVH to me.

 

[gadar perets]

According to 1 Corinthians 15:25 and 1 John 3:8, “one great design of God in the affair of redemption was to reduce and subdue those enemies of God till they should all be put under God's feet” which is Yeshua's job. You can not put them all under God's feet, unless the people are subservient to God's Will through the TEN. The first thing you do is teach the people, guide the people, and it is all part of the redemption plan.

Why don't you cite the author of the quote you made? It is from "A History of the Work of Redemption" by Jonathan Edwards, not that he deserves credit since the statement is false. God did not put all His enemies under God's feet. 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 teach that "God" (Father YHWH) would put all things under His Son Yeshua's feet.

1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he (Yeshua) shall have delivered up the kingdom to God (YHWH), even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he (Yeshua) must reign, till he (YHWH) hath put all enemies under his (Yeshua's) feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he (YHWH) hath put all things under his (Yeshua's) feet. But when he (YHWH) saith all things are put under him (Yeshua), it is manifest that he (YHWH) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Yeshua).
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him (Yeshua), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (YHWH) that put all things under him (Yeshua) , that God (YHWH) may be all in all.​

Also, 1 John 3:8 is falsely applied with 1 Corinthians 15:25, but they take place at different times. 1 Corinthians 15:25 takes place after Yeshua's resurrection and 1 John 3:8 took place at his death (Hebrews 2:14).

 

[gadar perets]

Yeshua is YHVH to me.

Then you must also conclude, based on such verses as Psalm 2:7, that Yeshua is his own Father and that the Father is His own Son.

Psalm 2:7 I (Yeshua) will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me (Yeshua), Thou art my (YHWH's) Son; this day have I (YHWH) begotten thee (Yeshua).
​

This verse makes absolutely no sense if Yeshua is YHWH.

BTW, I am in no way coming against the trinity doctrine which is pictured below.

Based on this, I agree with them that the Father (YHWH) is NOT the Son (Yeshua).

 

[AbbaLove]

Yeshua is YHVH to me.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government is placed upon His shoulder, and His name shall be called The Wonderful One, The Counsellor, The God, The Mighty One, The Eternal Father, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.
14 And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.
John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 17:21
that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
John 20:28
And Thomas answered and said unto Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Philippians 2:5-6
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.
10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

Is this what you mean by "connecting the dots..." ?
​

 

[visionary]

Then you must also conclude, based on such verses as Psalm 2:7, that Yeshua is his own Father and that the Father is His own Son.

Psalm 2:7 I (Yeshua) will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me (Yeshua), Thou art my (YHWH's) Son; this day have I (YHWH) begotten thee (Yeshua).
​

This verse makes absolutely no sense if Yeshua is YHWH.

BTW, I am in no way coming against the trinity doctrine which is pictured below.

Based on this, I agree with them that the Father (YHWH) is NOT the Son (Yeshua).

Until I had a child, I am not a mother. I am still me, in whatever state I am in. It is like wearing hats for each of the responsibilities, times, and events. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.

 

[dfw69]

Then you must also conclude, based on such verses as Psalm 2:7, that Yeshua is his own Father and that the Father is His own Son.

Psalm 2:7 I (Yeshua) will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me (Yeshua), Thou art my (YHWH's) Son; this day have I (YHWH) begotten thee (Yeshua).
​

This verse makes absolutely no sense if Yeshua is YHWH.

BTW, I am in no way coming against the trinity doctrine which is pictured below.

Based on this, I agree with them that the Father (YHWH) is NOT the Son (Yeshua).

I agree with you here Gadar ..

The father is the father
The son was the son representing the father on earth ...that's how he was able to claim to be the father on earth . because he was his fathers representative on earth ....his presence was as if the father was with us in person

But none the less yahshua was with the father from the beginning. ..being the second person in the trinity ...that is how yahshua was able to testify of heavenly things and testify of his father and able to claim to be the bread from heaven and from above ...

 

[gadar perets]

Until I had a child, I am not a mother. I am still me, in whatever state I am in. It is like wearing hats for each of the responsibilities, times, and events. If you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.

In other words, the Father decided to become the Son? If so, He is really doing a good job making people believe He is really the Son. He begot His Son; He gave the Son His Holy Spirit; He talks to the Son and the Son talks to Him; He was still up in heaven while His Son was on earth; He resurrected His Son; His Son worships Him as the only true God; His Son mediates between man and Himself; He sits beside the Son on the throne; His Son will even turn the Kingdom over to Him after death is destroyed and then be subject to Him for all eternity! Wow! That is a very convincing performance by the Father! To bad its not true.

 

[gadar perets]

that's how he was able to claim to be the father on earth .

He never made such a claim.

 

[dfw69]

He never made such a claim.

I mean when he said "he that has seen me has seen the father ". .and" he and his father are one".. Rememeber when his disciples ask him to show us the father? And yahshua said basically....how can u ask me that question?...john 14:9

 

[gadar perets]

I mean when he said he that has seen me has seen the father . .and he and his father are one.. Rememeber when his disciples ask him to show us the father? And yahshua said basically....how can u ask me that question?...john 14:9

Yes, but those were not claims to being the Father. John 14:9 is a claim to be just like the Father which is why Hebrew 1:3 says he is the "express image" of the Father. An image is not the real thing, but a copy.

John 10:30 is a claim to be one in purpose with the Father.

 

[dfw69]

Yes, but those were not claims to being the Father. John 14:9 is a claim to be just like the Father which is why Hebrew 1:3 says he is the "express image" of the Father. An image is not the real thing, but a copy.

John 10:30 is a claim to be one in purpose with the Father.

Agreed ....

 

[visionary]

In other words, the Father decided to become the Son? If so, He is really doing a good job making people believe He is really the Son. He begot His Son; He gave the Son His Holy Spirit; He talks to the Son and the Son talks to Him; He was still up in heaven while His Son was on earth; He resurrected His Son; His Son worships Him as the only true God; His Son mediates between man and Himself; He sits beside the Son on the throne; His Son will even turn the Kingdom over to Him after death is destroyed and then be subject to Him for all eternity! Wow! That is a very convincing performance by the Father! To bad its not true.

I understand the difficulty in comprehending God and His abilities and choices from our linear finite mind. I also understand God trying to get us to understand.