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Vyrzaharak

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First of all...15$/hr isn't the minimum wage. Secondly, I'm fine with you being fined by the courts. If you didn't have the necessary resources to pay the fine...then the seizing of assets for sale to pay your fine works for me. I think it would be a waste of jail space.

1. $15/hr being the minimum wage is irrelevant, you can substitute whatever your minimum wage is - the argument remains the same. Period.
2. You're fine with me being fined by the courts, and you're fine with seizing my assets. Now, if I refuse, then what? You think the court will just be able to sprinkle some rainbow fairy dust to make everything better? Again, that ain't happening; what will happen should I refuse, is that I and my 'accomplices' will be imprisoned (if we don't resist and get shot), because that is the procedure.
 
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Vyrzaharak

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Ok...with regards to police procedure in the U.S., it is illegal to shoot someone simply for resisting arrest and it's completely against procedure.

That's where you're wrong. Resisting arrest is its own crime.

Who is "promoting laws without regard to the activity of their enforcement"?

People such as yourself or the OP.
 
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Ana the Ist

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1. $15/hr being the minimum wage is irrelevant, you can substitute whatever your minimum wage is - the argument remains the same. Period.

1. It is relevant...if we were discussing a 1,000$/hr minimum wage, I wouldn't be in favor of that law.



2. You're fine with me being fined by the courts, and you're fine with seizing my assets. Now, if I refuse, then what?

I don't know what you mean by "refuse"...if the courts seize your assets, they are no longer yours. You disagreeing with the courts won't change anything. You won't be able to take your money out of the bank, you won't own your home, you won't own your car, etc. They won't need your permission to sell these things.



You think the court will just be able to sprinkle some rainbow fairy dust to make everything better?

lol Yes...if you illegally shorted your employees 5,000$, and the courts take 5,000$ of your money from the bank and give it to your employees...then yes, they've received their justice. The wrong you have done to them has been righted.


Again, that ain't happening; what will happen should I refuse, is that I and my 'accomplices' will be imprisoned (if we don't resist and get shot), because that is the procedure.

Sorry to hear that. I suggest you move to a more civilized society.
 
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Ana the Ist

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That's where you're wrong. Resisting arrest is its own crime.

I never said it wasn't, it's simply not a crime you can be legally shot for.



People such as yourself or the OP.

At this point, it appears that the OP and myself have a much better understanding of how law enforcement works than you do.
 
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Vyrzaharak

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1. It is relevant...if we were discussing a 1,000$/hr minimum wage, I wouldn't be in favor of that law.

It is irrelevant, because the question is about the subject of enforcement.

I don't know what you mean by "refuse"...if the courts seize your assets, they are no longer yours. You disagreeing with the courts won't change anything. You won't be able to take your money out of the bank, you won't own your home, you won't own your car, etc. They won't need your permission to sell these things.

They won't be able to seize the assets, so now what?

lol Yes...if you illegally shorted your employees 5,000$, and the courts take 5,000$ of your money from the bank and give it to your employees...then yes, they've received their justice. The wrong you have done to them has been righted.

You really believe that's how it works? What about the fact I don't have $5k in the bank? What about my cars having already been sold in cash, that my houses are owned by a dozen of trustees that won't let your government take them back? Your system breaks down without a central point of authority. Simply put, your system will resort to arresting me.
 
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Vyrzaharak

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I never said it wasn't, it's simply not a crime you can be legally shot for.

There is no objective law preventing a cop from shooting someone for resisting arrest.

At this point, it appears that the OP and myself have a much better understanding of how law enforcement works than you do.

Yet you cannot grasp what happens when one resists arrest, cannot be fined, or what happens by preventing government from seizing their assets.
 
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Ana the Ist

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It is irrelevant, because the question is about the subject of enforcement.

Then why is minimum wage laws tantamount to slavery and not being required to pay for any service? It's essentially the same thing. When you hire an employee...you've basically made a contractual agreement to pay for services (work). Why is that like slavery and not your cable t.v. bill? That's also a contractual agreement to pay for services. Is being legally required to pay your cable bill equal to slavery?



They won't be able to seize the assets, so now what?

Why wouldn't they be able to? Even if your only asset was your business...they could still seize your business.



You really believe that's how it works?

It's not a matter of belief...I've seen it happen.

What about the fact I don't have $5k in the bank?

And you own a business?

What about my cars having already been sold in cash, that my houses are owned by a dozen of trustees that won't let your government take them back?

I'm pretty sure they'd just seize your share of the trust...and then sell it to a bank, or more likely, the other trustees.

Your system breaks down without a central point of authority. Simply put, your system will resort to arresting me.

I suppose you could argue that if you tried hard enough to avoid justice and remain a criminal...you could conceivably force the government to arrest you....but that doesn't make you a slave, it makes you a criminal.
 
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Ana the Ist

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There is no objective law preventing a cop from shooting someone for resisting arrest.

It's called murder...and there's laws against it on the books in every state.


Yet you cannot grasp what happens when one resists arrest, cannot be fined, or what happens by preventing government from seizing their assets.

If one cannot pay, they might be given other options for jail time instead of the fine or community service. When one resists arrest...they typically get arrested. It may require more than one cop to drag the person into custody...but that's why most places have more than one cop.
 
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Vyrzaharak

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Then why is minimum wage laws tantamount to slavery and not being required to pay for any service? It's essentially the same thing. When you hire an employee...you've basically made a contractual agreement to pay for services (work). Why is that like slavery and not your cable t.v. bill? That's also a contractual agreement to pay for services. Is being legally required to pay your cable bill equal to slavery?[...]I suppose you could argue that if you tried hard enough to avoid justice and remain a criminal...you could conceivably force the government to arrest you....but that doesn't make you a slave, it makes you a criminal.

What is slavery but a non-consensual claim of ownership? The slave did not consent to being enslaved, and that's what makes it unethical: the lack of consent. So why then should your government be allowed to decide for me what I pay my employees whom themselves consented to my pay? I do not consent, yet I am forced to obey its laws. I did consent to paying for my cable bills because I signed an explicit contract giving me access to those services, but there is no consent in non-explicit contracts.

It's called murder...and there's laws against it on the books in every state.

What you call murder, others call defending themselves.

If one cannot pay, they might be given other options for jail time instead of the fine or community service. When one resists arrest...they typically get arrested. It may require more than one cop to drag the person into custody...but that's why most places have more than one cop.

Same effect, and I said gunshot if one's lucky: for imprisonment can be far, far worse than a gunshot.
 
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Ana the Ist

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What is slavery but a non-consensual claim of ownership? The slave did not consent to being enslaved, and that's what makes it unethical: the lack of consent.

I'd say there's a little bit more to it than a lack of consent...there's an element of force. A slave doesn't merely not consent to being a slave...they're forced into slavery. No one is forced into hiring employees. There are business owners who only employ themselves.


So why then should your government be allowed to decide for me what I pay my employees whom themselves consented to my pay? I do not consent, yet I am forced to obey its laws. I did consent to paying for my cable bills because I signed an explicit contract giving me access to those services, but there is no consent in non-explicit contracts.

I don't know what kind of jobs you're talking about...but every single job I've ever worked since I was 15 had a contract of employment. Also, it's not determining how much you can pay your employees...it's just determining the least you can pay your employees.

Furthermore, you're lucky enough to live under a government that represents the people. You can vote for a candidate who doesn't want minimum wage laws and will fight against them. You could run for office yourself. You can get together with other business owners and entrepreneurs who all back the same candidates who will reduce the minimum wage laws to whatever you want. Your participation in this system is up to you...unlike slavery.

Finally, you can always opt out. Find a nation who's laws you agree with more and move your business there....it happens all the time. You can't do any of this as a slave. The only way a slave can really opt out is suicide.



What you call murder, others call defending themselves.

No...what I call murder in this instance is exactly what the law calls murder. You said yourself we aren't discussing anecdotal experiences...we're discussing "procedures" and police policy doesn't allow for cops to kill people who are merely resisting arrest. That's still murder under police policy. I can explain in more detail if you'd like.



Same effect, and I said gunshot if one's lucky: for imprisonment can be far, far worse than a gunshot.

If it's "far far worse"...than how can it also be the "same effect"? That doesn't even make sense. I'll accept that under some circumstances prison could be worse than being shot...but that's really up to the prisoners. It doesn't have to be.
 
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Ana the Ist

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First...the product is not paid,a wage.
The cost of a product sold is determined by cost to produce it.
The cost to produce is a total of expenses. Raw materials, R and D, marketing, distribution, LABOR COSTS, leases, utilities, licenses, etc.
If you made painted wooden ducks.
You pay $1 for wood + $1 for paint + $1 for labor and $.25 profit = $3.25 duck.
If you increase labor to $2, you wind up with a $4.25 duck.

The labor market determines salaries, from janitor to CEO.

I was going to give this post a thumbs up in agreement...but you lost me on that last sentence lol. The labor market is an archaic means of looking at labor. The average CEO may make 356 times the amount of his average employee...but that doesn't make him worth it. It simply means whomever is deciding these salaries and benefits is doing an awful job of assessing value.
 
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Vyrzaharak

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I'd say there's a little bit more to it than a lack of consent...there's an element of force. A slave doesn't merely not consent to being a slave...they're forced into slavery.

Force is immoral due to it being lack of consent. If there is any form of objective ethics (and I'm not saying there is), then consent alone defines the line in the sand. Whatever a man consents to over himself is ethical, whatever he doesn't consent to over himself is unethical, ergo self-owners; everything else is an argument of subjective morality.

No one is forced into hiring employees. There are business owners who only employ themselves.

No business is forcing an employee to work for them either, yet here you are.

I don't know what kind of jobs you're talking about...but every single job I've ever worked since I was 15 had a contract of employment. Also, it's not determining how much you can pay your employees...it's just determining the least you can pay your employees.

Nothing you say here has anything to do with what I said.

Furthermore, you're lucky enough to live under a government that represents the people. You can vote for a candidate who doesn't want minimum wage laws and will fight against them. You could run for office yourself. You can get together with other business owners and entrepreneurs who all back the same candidates who will reduce the minimum wage laws to whatever you want. Your participation in this system is up to you...unlike slavery.

What makes me lucky is the fact I don't live in a country that gets bombed on a daily basis. What makes me lucky is the fact I don't have to worry about my next meal because someone thought my parents were terrorists. What makes me lucky is the fact I live in a country that at one point practiced rugged individualism. The only reason to live in the United States is the knowledge that the United States won't attempt to blow itself up with bombs, that's what makes me 'lucky', not some system that's proclaimed by its fanatics as being 'democratic'.

Finally, you can always opt out. Find a nation who's laws you agree with more and move your business there....it happens all the time. You can't do any of this as a slave. The only way a slave can really opt out is suicide.

Firstly, tacit consent is NOT voluntary. Just because I decide to live somewhere does not even remotely imply that I agree to rules, only by explicitly signing a contract that has a clear exit clause can one agree to a rule. Secondly, to leave requires consent to the system itself, and I mean that pragmatically - as there's an Expat tax and the fact your 'democracy' has decided the IRS has full authority over my passport.

But either way, I am going to sit here and refuse to consent to the system since I never signed any explicit contract. If you don't like my refusal to consent, then you have the option of doing something for yourself - whether you decide to remove me by force or leave.

No...what I call murder in this instance is exactly what the law calls murder. You said yourself we aren't discussing anecdotal experiences...we're discussing "procedures" and police policy doesn't allow for cops to kill people who are merely resisting arrest. That's still murder under police policy. I can explain in more detail if you'd like.

Procedure refers to an objectively-defined activity. Like most criminal terms that don't exclusively govern any public employee, murder is a subjectively-defined proposition.

If it's "far far worse"...than how can it also be the "same effect"? That doesn't even make sense. I'll accept that under some circumstances prison could be worse than being shot...but that's really up to the prisoners. It doesn't have to be.

Same effect regarding the entire point, because both are forms of aggression.

Since I will be going to bed, however, I'll cut this short with a few statements by H.L. Mencken in regards to the myth of democracy -

Liberty and democracy are eternal enemies, and every one knows it who has ever given any sober reflection to the matter. A democratic state may profess to venerate the name, and even pass laws making it officially sacred, but it simply cannot tolerate the thing. In order to keep any coherence in the governmental process, to prevent the wildest anarchy in thought and act, the government must put limits upon the free play of opinion. In part, it can reach that end by mere propaganda, by the bald force of its authority — that is, by making certain doctrines officially infamous. But in part it must resort to force, i.e., to law. One of the main purposes of laws in a democratic society is to put burdens upon intelligence and reduce it to impotence. Ostensibly, their aim is to penalize anti-social acts; actually their aim is to penalize heretical opinions. At least ninety-five Americans out of every 100 believe that this process is honest and even laudable; it is practically impossible to convince them that there is anything evil in it. In other words, they cannot grasp the concept of liberty. Always they condition it with the doctrine that the state, i.e., the majority, has a sort of right of eminent domain in acts, and even in ideas — that it is perfectly free, whenever it is so disposed, to forbid a man to say what he honestly believes. Whenever his notions show signs of becoming “dangerous,” ie, of being heard and attended to, it exercises that prerogative. And the overwhelming majority of citizens believe in supporting it in the outrage. Including especially the Liberals, who pretend — and often quite honestly believe — that they are hot for liberty. They never really are. Deep down in their hearts they know, as good democrats, that liberty would be fatal to democracy — that a government based upon shifting and irrational opinion must keep it within bounds or run a constant risk of disaster. They themselves, as a practical matter, advocate only certain narrow kinds of liberty — liberty, that is, for the persons they happen to favor. The rights of other persons do not seem to interest them. If a law were passed tomorrow taking away the property of a large group of presumably well-to-do persons — say, bondholders of the railroads — without compensation and without even colorable reason, they would not oppose it; they would be in favor of it. The liberty to have and hold property is not one they recognize. They believe only in the liberty to envy, hate and loot the man who has it.


I have seen many theoretical objections to democracy, and sometimes urge them with such heat that it probably goes beyond the bound of sound taste, but I am thoroughly convinced, nonetheless, that the democratic nations are happier than any other. The United States today, indeed, is probably the happiest the world has ever seen. Taxes are high, but they are still well within the means of the taxpayer: he could pay twice as much and still survive. The laws are innumerable and idiotic, but only prisoners in the penitentiaries and persons under religious vows ever obey them. The country is governed by rogues, but there is no general dislike of rogues: on the contrary, they are esteemed and envied. Best of all, the people have the pleasant feeling that they can make improvements at any time they want to—... in other words, they are happy. Democrats are always happy. Democracy is a sort of laughing gas. It will not cure anything, perhaps, but it unquestionably stops the pain.

For what democracy needs most of all is a party that will separate the good that is in it theoretically from the evils that beset it practically, and then try to erect that good into a workable system. What it needs beyond everything is a party of liberty. It produces, true enough, occasional libertarians, just as despotism produces occasional regicides, but it treats them in the same drum-head way. It will never have a party of them until it invents and installs a genuine aristocracy, to breed them and secure them.

Thus the ideal of democracy is reached at last: it has become a psychic impossibility for a gentleman to hold office under the Federal Union, save by a combination of miracles that must tax the resourcefulness even of God. The fact has been rammed home by a constitutional amendment: every office-holder, when he takes oath to support the Constitution, must swear on his honour that, summoned to the death-bed of his grandmother, he will not take the old lady a bottle of wine. He may say so and do it, which makes him a liar, or he may say so and not do it, which makes him a pig. But despite that grim dilemma there are still idealists, chiefly professional Liberals, who argue that it is the duty of a gentleman to go into politics—that there is a way out of the quagmire in that direction. The remedy, it seems to me, is quite as absurd as all the other sure cures that Liberals advocate. When they argue for it, they simply argue, in words but little changed, that the remedy for prostitution is to fill the bawdyhouses with virgins. My impression is that this last device would accomplish very little: either the virgins would leap out of the windows, or they would cease to virgins.
 
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bhsmte

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This doesn't really deal with the issue.

Maybe the employer should be forced to raise wages. That he or she doesn't want to doesn't explain why this shouldn't be done.

Raise wages increases spending, and thus taxes and income for companies.

In reading all of your many posts on this topic, it appears you don't have an understanding of business and where this money comes from to pay these higher wages. Also, you are single focused on the wages of the average worker, with zero regard for the business and how it is impacted.

As a general rule, employees are paid a wage, that correlates with the following:

-the skill required to perform the job
-what the available employment pool is that can perform the job
-how important that specific employee has become to the employer and how hard they would be to replace
 
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RDKirk

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Ironically, I agree with that sentiment you quoted. Just not in the same vein as the person intends.

Minimum Wage is slavery, in the sense that its existence depends on misunderstanding rights. To establish minimum wage, one cannot help but assume a centralized ownership of the individual, in the same way that slaves were owned by the plantation of centuries past.

I think you diminish the horror of slavery.
 
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RDKirk

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You're misreading what I've stated, albeit not unsurprisingly (not an attack on you, many people misread it). It is not slavery in that business assumes ownership, but in that it is established by a centralized authority, government, claiming ownership. The minimum wage issue cannot exist without establishment of ownership of the individual by a centralized authority, that being government. There is no minimum wage without that, and slavery existed the same way - reliant on centralized, unquestionable authority.

No. Look at who is dictating to whom and who must obey. Minimum wage is the establishment of de facto ownership of the means of production (that is, business) by the government. The government dictates, the businessman obeys.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a minimum wage, I'm just pointing out that minimum wage is a product of government power exerted on businesses, not upon labor.
 
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RDKirk

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So the government has ownership of an individual because they establish a minimum that said individual should be paid? That is a line of reasoning that I am comfortable with. I would find it problematic later on if you are consistent in that line of reasoning, however. For example, would you also say that the ability for the government to arrest an individual is evidence of ownership?

If the government establishes a penalty for killing a person, that would be an establishment of ownership of that person....by that logic.
 
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Vyrzaharak

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I think you diminish the horror of slavery.

Then do objectively condemn slavery without the act of aggression. Condemn it without the axiomatic principle of self-ownership.

No. Look at who is dictating to whom and who must obey. Minimum wage is the establishment of de facto ownership of the means of production (that is, business) by the government. The government dictates, the businessman obeys.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a minimum wage, I'm just pointing out that minimum wage is a product of government power exerted on businesses, not upon labor.

It is exerted on labor, every bit as it is exerted on business. Business is its own labor.
 
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RDKirk

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I'm going to disagree that everyone who "resists arrest" gets shot

If he resists sufficiently, yes, he will be shot for even the slightest infraction (see: David Koresh).

The government will never say, "Well, sir, you're that serious about the matter, never mind...."
 
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RDKirk

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Then do objectively condemn slavery without the act of aggression. Condemn it without the axiomatic principle of self-ownership.



It is exerted on labor, every bit as it is exerted on business. Business is its own labor.

Well, I guess if it follows for a person that minimum wage is slavery, then of course business must also be labor.
 
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RDKirk

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Ok...with regards to police procedure in the U.S., it is illegal to shoot someone simply for resisting arrest and it's completely against procedure.

Well-to-do white man talking.

A police officer who shoots a man for resisting arrest will be exonerated.
 
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