Connected Wages

[Paradoxum]

If prices have gone up, they haven't gained anything. That's called "inflation."

So how has quality of life improved, in terms of products? Medicine, etc?

 

[Vyrzaharak]

As I said, that isn't true in real life. It's just companies doing whatever they want. There is not perfect competition. [...] Okay, is there proof or reasons beyond statement?

No, the fact there isn't "perfect" competition is precisely the point. Nobody is going to offer perfect competition, therefore the opportunity for competition will always exist. If there were such thing as "perfect" competition, there wouldn't be a market at all. Perfection does not require the law of scarcity.

I'm not sure what point either of us are making here.

You say you believe businesses should be forced to pay more. You say you believe there should be a minimum wage. How do you expect to enforce the law? Hmmm?

 

[381465]

Why does increasing the wage of the employee increase the wage of the product? Could it not it come from the lack of increase from the upper middle management?

First...the product is not paid,a wage.
The cost of a product sold is determined by cost to produce it.
The cost to produce is a total of expenses. Raw materials, R and D, marketing, distribution, LABOR COSTS, leases, utilities, licenses, etc.
If you made painted wooden ducks.
You pay $1 for wood + $1 for paint + $1 for labor and $.25 profit = $3.25 duck.
If you increase labor to $2, you wind up with a $4.25 duck.

The labor market determines salaries, from janitor to CEO.

 

[tstor]

Well it's not much different from minimum wage.

So this is what minimum wage looks like to you?

 

[Paradoxum]

The average business owner isn't "the richest" by any means.

I agree.

To use an example mentioned earlier, if a professional basketball player "does his job" excellently, it brings more wealth into the organization than the janitor who does his job excellently. Therefore, he should get a larger raise.

I don't think that is justified. The wealth should be shared.

Is that true? I know a good many women who are business owners...I would never have thought that being women meant they didn't understand what profit was.

Why do you think so?

You know I was being sarcastic?

You realize that money doesn't just "sit" in banks, right? You realize that bank deposits are going into society, right?

No, I don't. Money to the middle and working class adds to the national economy than that which... goes whether ever it goes in the world.

But you seem to have moved the goalpost--you were talking about linked wages before, now you're just talking about "good" pay.

I'm fine to change that.

You moved that goalpost again. Now you're talking about free time. When you say "free time," are you talking about real "free" time, or are you talking about paid time off?

I'm talking about 3 day weekends.

But it's got to get down to specifics. Like setting up an invasion army. To the generals, it's all divisions and battalions. But at some point, some particular sergeant has to point to some particular solder and say, "You!"

Why did the economy work on 6 days a week, and moved to 5 days a week, but 4 is just magically impossible?

 

[Vyrzaharak]

So this is what minimum wage looks like to you?
[picture]

Ironically, I agree with that sentiment you quoted. Just not in the same vein as the person intends.

Minimum Wage is slavery, in the sense that its existence depends on misunderstanding rights. To establish minimum wage, one cannot help but assume a centralized ownership of the individual, in the same way that slaves were owned by the plantation of centuries past.

 

[tstor]

Ironically, I agree with that sentiment you quoted. Just not in the same vein as the person intends.

Minimum Wage is slavery, in the sense that its existence depends on misunderstanding rights. To establish minimum wage, one cannot help but assume a centralized ownership of the individual, in the same way that slaves were owned by the plantation of centuries past.

What? Minimum wage does not "assume a centralized ownership of the individual." You know why? Because the individual agrees to do work for a person/company/business for a certain wage. That wage may be the bare minimum or higher. Slavery involves purchasing humans with or without their consent. A worker can quit if they feel their wages are not fair. A slave cannot.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is there as reason why the wages of the richest shouldn't be connected to the wages for the lowest paid?

If the wages (bonus', etc, included) of upper management is connected to the lowest paid; so if the highest is increased by 5%, the lowest in creased by 5.1%, why not?

I'm not sure I understand the question...

Are you asking why this isn't the way we do things?

Is this a question about the morality of doing things this way? It looks like you're asking about morality since you said "shouldn't"....

 

[Vyrzaharak]

What? Minimum wage does not "assume a centralized ownership of the individual." You know why? Because the individual agrees to a do work for a person/company/business for a certain wage. That wage may be the bare minimum or higher. Slavery involves purchasing humans with or without their consent. A worker can quit if they feel their wages are not fair. A slave cannot.

You're misreading what I've stated, albeit not unsurprisingly (not an attack on you, many people misread it). It is not slavery in that business assumes ownership, but in that it is established by a centralized authority, government, claiming ownership. The minimum wage issue cannot exist without establishment of ownership of the individual by a centralized authority, that being government. There is no minimum wage without that, and slavery existed the same way - reliant on centralized, unquestionable authority.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is there as reason why the wages of the richest shouldn't be connected to the wages for the lowest paid?

If the wages (bonus', etc, included) of upper management is connected to the lowest paid; so if the highest is increased by 5%, the lowest in creased by 5.1%, why not?

If your question is purely economic...I think this system could force an astonishing number of people into poverty or homelessness. Imagine if a struggling business had its highest paid earners take a 50% pay cut....it's lowest paid might not be able to even put food on the table at 50% less pay.

 

[381465]

You're misreading what I've stated, albeit not unsurprisingly (not an attack on you, many people misread it). It is not slavery in that business assumes ownership, but in that it is established by a centralized authority, government, claiming ownership. The minimum wage issue cannot exist without establishment of ownership of the individual by a centralized authority, that being government. There is no minimum wage without that, and slavery existed the same way - reliant on centralized, unquestionable authority.

Abolish minimum wage and abolish slavery.

 

[Ana the Ist]

You're misreading what I've stated, albeit not unsurprisingly (not an attack on you, many people misread it). It is not slavery in that business assumes ownership, but in that it is established by a centralized authority, government, claiming ownership. The minimum wage issue cannot exist without establishment of ownership of the individual by a centralized authority, that being government. There is no minimum wage without that, and slavery existed the same way - reliant on centralized, unquestionable authority.

Why would you think that the government would need to "own" people in order to institute a minimum wage?

 

[tstor]

You're misreading what I've stated, albeit not unsurprisingly (not an attack on you, many people misread it). It is not slavery in that business assumes ownership, but in that it is established by a centralized authority, government, claiming ownership. The minimum wage issue cannot exist without a priori establishment of ownership of the individual by a centralized authority, that being government.

So the government has ownership of an individual because they establish a minimum that said individual should be paid? That is a line of reasoning that I am comfortable with. I would find it problematic later on if you are consistent in that line of reasoning, however. For example, would you also say that the ability for the government to arrest an individual is evidence of ownership?

As well, would you advocate for the removal of a minimum wage?

 

[Vyrzaharak]

If your question is purely economic...I think this system could force an astonishing number of people into poverty or homelessness. Imagine if a struggling business had its highest paid earners take a 50% pay cut....it's lowest paid might not be able to even put food on the table at 50% less pay.

Economically, it'd destroy whatever's left of the legal market as it does. Perfect for many people I know, who won't work except under-the-table.

Abolish minimum wage and abolish slavery.

Abolish the system, indeed.

Why would you think that the government would need to "own" people in order to institute a minimum wage?

What is the cost of enforcement?

So the government has ownership of an individual because they establish a minimum that said individual should be paid? That is a line of reasoning that I am comfortable with. I would find it problematic later on if you are consistent in that line of reasoning, however. For example, would you also say that the ability for the government to arrest an individual is evidence of ownership?

As well, would you advocate for the removal of a minimum wage?

Yes, and yes. Anytime someone says, "there ought be a law..." - what exactly is it they are advocating for? What does happen if one breaks the law? They get arrested and imprisoned. What if they resist? Gunshot to the head, if they're lucky. That is how the system works, regardless of anyone's views on what ought to be.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What is the cost of enforcement?

Are you asking me what it costs to enforce a minimum wage? I'm sure we can find out the budget for fair business practices is if you're interested...

If you're asking what it specifically costs the person who breaks the law...it's a fine depending upon how much they've avoided paying their workers.

This doesn't answer my question though...

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, and yes. Anytime someone says, "there ought be a law..." - what exactly is it they are advocating for? What does happen if one breaks the law? They get arrested and imprisoned. What if they resist? Gunshot to the head, if they're lucky. That is how the system works, regardless of anyone's views on what ought to be.

I'm going to disagree that everyone who "resists arrest" gets shot...much less shot in the head...but regardless....

Enforcement of the law is necessary for society to function. If you've got any examples of societies which function without laws....I'm more than willing/interested to hear about them...

 

[Vyrzaharak]

Are you asking me what it costs to enforce a minimum wage? I'm sure we can find out the budget for fair business practices is if you're interested...

If you're asking what it specifically costs the person who breaks the law...it's a fine depending upon how much they've avoided paying their workers.

This doesn't answer my question though...

I mean, how far are you willing to go to enforce the (Minimum Wage) law? What is the enforcement of a law worth to you, that you can have your $15/hr job? Are you willing to go so far as to subject me into prison, and the consequence thereof, because I do not pay you $15/hr?

 

[Vyrzaharak]

I'm going to disagree that everyone who "resists arrest" gets shot...much less shot in the head...but regardless....

I never said everyone necessarily does get shot. I'm talking about procedure, not experience or anecdotal stories.

Enforcement of the law is necessary for society to function. If you've got any examples of societies which function without laws....I'm more than willing/interested to hear about them...

Maybe it is (I'm not promoting a society without laws either), but that doesn't excuse anyone from promoting laws without regard to the activity of their enforcement.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I mean, how far are you willing to go to enforce the (Minimum Wage) law? What is the enforcement of a law worth to you, that you can have your $15/hr job? Are you willing to go so far as to subject me into prison, and the consequence thereof, because I do not pay you $15/hr?

First of all...15$/hr isn't the minimum wage. Secondly, I'm fine with you being fined by the courts. If you didn't have the necessary resources to pay the fine...then the seizing of assets for sale to pay your fine works for me. I think it would be a waste of jail space.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I never said everyone necessarily does get shot. I'm talking about procedure, not experience or anecdotal stories.

Ok...with regards to police procedure in the U.S., it is illegal to shoot someone simply for resisting arrest and it's completely against procedure.

Maybe it is (I'm not promoting a society without laws either), but that doesn't excuse anyone from promoting laws without regard to the activity of their enforcement.

Who is "promoting laws without regard to the activity of their enforcement"?