Congregational Security

[ChavaK]

So I saw question posed at another forum that I thought was interesting.
It has to do with the latest synagogue shooting today.

Have you ever considered the fact that some terrorist could come to your
congregation, not realizing it is Messianic rather than Jewish?
(yes, I know there may be some Jews there, but on the whole I think
a terrorist would be interested in a place where it is presumed everyone
is Jewish and it has some attachment to traditional Judaism).

Have you ever taken any security measures to help prevent such an
attack, should one happen? Ever have any scares, or feelings of not
being safe in your own congregation?

 

[Kris10leigh]

Around 9/11 we felt fearful of being at church, but I think that was pretty normal across America. We all felt like targets. But my family has been so blessed in our feeling of complete security no matter where we are. We are very lucky and stories like this make me remember not to take anything for granted.

I think it's terrible that any group of people is targeted in any way. I long for the day that we do enter into an era peace and we will know we are there because finally people will be judged based on their individual merit, not based on race, religion, sexual orientation, hair color, gender or interest.

 

[anisavta]

Terrorism is not a respecter of persons or religion.
We as Messianic believers are double targeted. We are hated because we are Jews and hated because we believe in Yeshua (Jesus).
So far we have felt divine Protection at my shul. One door is locked during service allowing for only one entrance. We have someone in the greeting area throughout the whole service who monitors the door.
Because we had several firebombings at the synagogues in my city several years back, we have police protection at all Federation functions.

 

[JudaicChristian]

So I saw question posed at another forum that I thought was interesting.
It has to do with the latest synagogue shooting today.

Have you ever considered the fact that some terrorist could come to your
congregation, not realizing it is Messianic rather than Jewish?
(yes, I know there may be some Jews there, but on the whole I think
a terrorist would be interested in a place where it is presumed everyone
is Jewish and it has some attachment to traditional Judaism).

Have you ever taken any security measures to help prevent such an
attack, should one happen? Ever have any scares, or feelings of not
being safe in your own congregation?

I have been to some Baptist Churches that had cameras and armed guards.

 

[Heber]

One of our messianic meetings was verbally objected to, in no uncertain terms by... Anglican ministers who tried to stop a meeting with a visiting Messianic speaker from Russia. The meeting was being held in an Anglican church and they turned up to heckle and generally ruin the meeting! They complained to the Bishop who took no notice - that probably wound them up no end.

In another part of the country graffiti on the walls, stones and things thrown at our house, glass scratched with graffiti etc.

There a more problems here for non Messianic Jews than for Messianics, I think.

It's life, I'm afraid. But we do not tend to get the sort of problems you guys get in the US, yet. That must be really scary.

 

[Hadassah]

Chava, I don't know if you recall the church fires that were going on a couple of years back in Alabama (mostly rural and many within walking distance of homes) - but that was another call for increased security in our congregation, as we have a Torah, and it was being stored in an Ark, but not otherwise protected.

A member had an ingenious idea to modify a fire-safe so that it would comply for the needs of our scroll, protect it when not in use, and yet have the ner-tamid .. very interesting complication we had, and no one had ever encountered it before.

On top, we had to make some structural changes to the building to bring it up to code as it used to be a home, and was no longer. It had to meet some new fire codes (Doors had to open a certain way, no more than X amount of seats, etc).

Prior to that, around 9/11, we had some major draw to security, and started implementing some plans. Closer to '04 or '05, we had a mosque open not too far from us, and between the craziness that broke out with that, we had some really ignorant "Good ol' boys" getting itchy and territorial, so we increased security again, and those who had permits to conceal-carry had dedicated to do so when it came to meetings and also coming together for Shabbat.

We also contacted the security firm that looked over our congregation, and the local PD. They increased their "drive-by" on our road, and often would come up and check things out if there seemed to be a car parked at an odd time. I remember one time I was setting up for something, and had dedicated to come between my work to home hours (as rush hour at that time of year going home was horrible either way I went home, and the Synagogue was along one of the routes) -- an officer pulled in the driveway within 10 minutes of me pulling in.

You shoulda seen my face.. LOL! I was pleasantly surprised, and we got to chat for a minute when I explained who I was, why I was there and that all was well. I did let the elders know that we definitely were being checked up on.

When I had visited our local Conservative shul, the police stand at all entrances and also drive by (it's not too far from the inner city, but it's closer to the nice area of the city) - the security was rather good, but not as good as what I've seen at some churches (consealed-carry ushers, organized parking/ persons looking out at the entrances/exits of the parking lot and around the building, individuals keeping the children's areas safe and looked over, closed doors during services with individuals "casing" the building (services being broadcast on speakers so they don't miss out) and heavy emphasis on meeting/greeting new attendees)...

I think we could do more for our security, but I haven't been other than to visit the few times my morning sickness cooperated, and what I did see was much better than when I last attended my home congregation. I think some CCTV/cameras might benefit as well as reflective mirrors in the parking area, and someone keeping an eye on the parking area during services (erev shabbat for instance) might be better ... other than that, there isn't much they really can do, short of splitting down to splinter groups meeting in homes and agreeing to meet only at certain times of the month together. KWIM?

 

[Torah]

There were concerns for our congregation’s safety back in 2004, Our Rabbi would say “If our Congregation look Jewish, eats Jewish, Celebrates G-ds Holydays. We will be treated just as the Jews.”

During this time our Congregation was getting a lot of publicity because of our dance group. [Israeli dance] They danced at the “Promise Kippers” Pastors convention in Arizona. There were threats on our dance group and we were put in a bus and escorted by police to the convention.

For a year after this I was asked to sit by the front door of our Congregation.
[I have a concealed weapon permit]

 

[ChavaK]

I have been to some Baptist Churches that had cameras and armed guards.

Interesting....I wonder who would have anything against Baptists?

 

[zaksmummy]

I read in the paper a couple of years ago about an Anglican Vicar and church who was harrassed so much by a gang of teenages that the police charged them under the blasphemy laws. Doesnt happen very often, I've never heard of it before or since.

Dont know about synagogues, but when we went to Wales last year my MIL read in the paper that a Jewish guy had been assalted outside the town we were staying at, there is an orthodox synagogue there.

 

[Heber]

Interesting....I wonder who would have anything against Baptists?

Churches supporting Jews / Israel also get targetted. The Baptist church may well have fitted into that category.

 

[ContraMundum]

So I saw question posed at another forum that I thought was interesting.
It has to do with the latest synagogue shooting today.

Have you ever considered the fact that some terrorist could come to your
congregation, not realizing it is Messianic rather than Jewish?
(yes, I know there may be some Jews there, but on the whole I think
a terrorist would be interested in a place where it is presumed everyone
is Jewish and it has some attachment to traditional Judaism).

Have you ever taken any security measures to help prevent such an
attack, should one happen? Ever have any scares, or feelings of not
being safe in your own congregation?

To my knowledge, the only place Messiancs are targeted for persecution because they are Messianic is Israel. Some have nearly been killed and it's only a matter of time until some nut from Mea Shearim or a member of the Shas party takes bullets to them. Should Messianics take security measures in Israel? I don't know, but they could make a case for it I bet. Most Israelis would not take issue with them, I would guess.

Many Christians are already the victims of rampant, bloody terrorism. Those in Sudan and other parts of Africa are being killed as part of an "cleansing" program. Likewise in Pakistan, where villages are destroyed and the people slaughtered almost weekly. In Egypt it is commonplace. It is said that Christianity is the most persecuted major religion in the world. We don't grasp that concept in the West because we are too concerned with American Idol etc and don't want to find out about the rest of the planet. Learn more here.

In other words, you don't have to be Jewish to be the target of terrorism. It bothers me that when an entire Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Bhuddist villiage is slaughtered and razed to the ground it doesn't make the news.

I don't think the experience of the Americans and British here on this forum compares, frankly. I don't know why people desire to portray a persecution situation comparable to the Jews. We all have it easy in this part of the world- Jew and Gentile alike. Vandalism of property and heckling from detractors happens to all religions, everywhere, at any time. As for Christians, I think most Christians- regardless of background- have been the victims of that at one point or another, but we shouldn't let it bother us, should we? We were told it would happen.

In the West, where we have religious freedom, Christians don't take a lot of security precautions because a) we're not afraid of death, b) all are welcome in the church and c) it's not likely to happen so why live in fear? It might happen in some parts of the US where people are afraid of everything from escalators to the neighbours' dog but I haven't come across it yet.

As for my congregation- no security, no cameras. Shoot us if you wish, we will still pray for you.

 

[ContraMundum]

There were concerns for our congregation’s safety back in 2004, Our Rabbi would say “If our Congregation look Jewish, eats Jewish, Celebrates G-ds Holydays. We will be treated just as the Jews.”

During this time our Congregation was getting a lot of publicity because of ourdance group. [Israeli dance] They danced at the “Promise Kippers” Pastors convention in Arizona. There were threats on our dance group and we were put in a bus and escorted by police to the convention.

For a year after this I was asked to sit by the front door of our Congregation.
[I have a concealed weapon permit]

Would you have used your weapon in the case that a deadly terrorist situation arose?

 

[ContraMundum]

One of our messianic meetings was verbally objected to, in no uncertain terms by... Anglican ministers who tried to stop a meeting with a visiting Messianic speaker from Russia. The meeting was being held in an Anglican church and they turned up to heckle and generally ruin the meeting! They complained to the Bishop who took no notice - that probably wound them up no end.

When I read this I had to laugh out loud. Why? Because I thought "oh, that's nothing compared to the way these people treat traditional conservative Anglicans!!" They take our buildings away from us, then heckle! (Not to mention take away our retirement pensions and livelihood)

Next time you need a building to use in Britain- pm me. I'll set you up with some normal people.

In another part of the country graffiti on the walls, stones and things thrown at our house, glass scratched with graffiti etc.

There a more problems here for non Messianic Jews than for Messianics, I think.

It's life, I'm afraid. But we do not tend to get the sort of problems you guys get in the US, yet. That must be really scary.

Question- because of the high amount of Muslims in the UK- do you think vandalism of church and esp. Messianic property and the risk of terrorism will increase?

 

[Heber]

Where we were living at the time it was not a clash of Muslim vs Messianic. It was simple anti-semitism by people indigenous to the area. Most of the UK burned synagogues, beatings and grave desecrations have not been attributed to Muslims, to be fair to them. More like certain political views that have been in the news a lot recently where there has been a history of anti semitism (and a hashoah denial, to boot).

Where we are now, the anglican problem is simply fuelled by anti Israel and pro 'Palestinian' policies within that denomination, even though it presents itself as multi-cultural ie any culture is ok as long as it has nothing to with the Jews in any form. I once reported a UK vicar who didn't know me but, on the basis that I wore a Yeshua, King of kings (in Hebrew) sweat shirt, came up to me and said he hated all Jews! And this was in his vestibule. His bish took no action at all.

Given that most denominations in the UK are institutionally anti-semitic or at least anti-Israeli, I am not surprised at your problems. I know what you mean, first hand.

However, I think that the Muslim issue may well become a major problem but, at the moment, it's our own people both inside and outside the church that are the bigger problem.

Are you a part of Forward in Faith?

 

[Ivy]

Many Christians are already the victims of rampant, bloody terrorism. Those in Sudan and other parts of Africa are being killed as part of an "cleansing" program. Likewise in Pakistan, where villages are destroyed and the people slaughtered almost weekly. In Egypt it is commonplace. It is said that Christianity is the most persecuted major religion in the world. We don't grasp that concept in the West because we are too concerned with American Idol etc and don't want to find out about the rest of the planet. Learn more here.

Yes, there's nothing anticipatory or imaginary in that, is there? It's actually happening.

 

[Hadassah]

Interesting....I wonder who would have anything against Baptists?

Ohhhhhhh I could think of a few things depending on the exact denomination and what they teach/preach.

In 2006-2007, that's the bulk of the congregations that were put to fire or otherwise desecrated. There were a few others, but that was the main denomination hands down, and it wasn't done to any particular town/city/county or divided among race lines either. It was just some college students that were up to no good, hated what was being said/taught, and lashed out. They're serving time now.

 

[ContraMundum]

Where we were living at the time it was not a clash of Muslim vs Messianic. It was simple anti-semitism by people indigenous to the area. Most of the UK burned synagogues, beatings and grave desecrations have not been attributed to Muslims, to be fair to them. More like certain political views that have been in the news a lot recently where there has been a history of anti semitism (and a hashoah denial, to boot).

Woah. Seriously? I didn't realise it had gotten to that. We're talking about the BNP, right?

Where we are now, the anglican problem is simply fuelled by anti Israel and pro 'Palestinian' policies within that denomination, even though it presents itself as multi-cultural ie any culture is ok as long as it has nothing to with the Jews in any form. I once reported a UK vicar who didn't know me but, on the basis that I wore a Yeshua, King of kings (in Hebrew) sweat shirt, came up to me and said he hated all Jews! And this was in his vestibule. His bish took no action at all.

I would have hit him with the obvious conclusion that if he hated all Jews then surely he must despise characters of the bible....and pointed out that this was self-evident by his actions anyway!

Given that most denominations in the UK are institutionally anti-semitic or at least anti-Israeli, I am not surprised at your problems. I know what you mean, first hand.

I have begun to realise that the whole anti-Israel thing is the position that is very easy to take given our current media. It's no wonder that people with a conscience are happy to take the sides of the Palestinians, as they are portrayed as victims- but the point the media rarely touches is who they are the victims of- and it's not "the Jews" or "Amerikka" or the UK as some suppose. Extremists hold them captive and use them as pawns...but I digress.

However, I think that the Muslim issue may well become a major problem but, at the moment, it's our own people both inside and outside the church that are the bigger problem.

Well, given the London bombings, I guess it's a matter of degrees. The good news is that there are many British Christians that are seeing the light on this. Just recently I met a British Presbyterian who was very much on our side- he was even against replacement theology, which stunned me coming from a Calvinist.

Are you a part of Forward in Faith?

TAC- very similar and we are in full communion with FiF. (A number of TAC clergy are Jews, BTW)

Interesting things you have mentioned!

 

[David Ben Yosef]

In 2006-2007, that's the bulk of the congregations that were put to fire or otherwise desecrated. There were a few others, but that was the main denomination hands down, and it wasn't done to any particular town/city/county or divided among race lines either. It was just some college students that were up to no good, hated what was being said/taught, and lashed out. They're serving time now.

I remember that, but was unaware of the denominational implications. Thanx for the info.

 

[fremen]

Question- because of the high amount of Muslims in the UK- do you think vandalism of church and esp. Messianic property and the risk of terrorism will increase?

This reminds me of a recent visit I paid to England. I hadn't been there in a while, and it surprised me to see the startling growth of Islam there. I also saw that xenophobia is increasing because immigration seems to be much greater than when I was there last time. One cab driver I was talking to during a long journey said to me that he hated what he called "the Asians" - I'm assuming he was referring to people from India and Pakistan. He said they had kids there and then their kids had the same citizenship as any other local. He then said a sentence I'll never forget: "A dog doesn't become a horse because it was born in a barn."

Then I also recall a conversation with a Muslim guy I made friends with during a visit to Argentina. He said Islam was a peaceful religion, and that they only wanted the land that had previously belong to them at some point in History, because Islam somehow (I'm no expert and am only quoting him) doesn't allow that once a country becomes Muslim it goes back to officially belonging to another religion. That obviously would include, well, nearly the whole of Europe, so I find it pretty disturbing that the Islamic world is advancing there in high proportions. England, a country and people that are very dear to my heart, seems to be a pressure cook ready to explode because of the rise of Muslim demographics.

Kol tov,
Fremen

 

[ChavaK]

England, a country and people that are very dear to my heart, seems to be a pressure cook ready to explode because of the rise of Muslim demographics.

This is happening all across Europe...last year I heard Dennis Prager
speak and he predicted that Europe will become increasingly Islamic
and that within 50 years there will be a major "civil war" between
the Muslims and the non-Muslims.