Congregational Security

[ContraMundum]

Then I also recall a conversation with a Muslim guy I made friends with during a visit to Argentina. He said Islam was a peaceful religion, and that they only wanted the land that had previously belong to them at some point in History, because Islam somehow (I'm no expert and am only quoting him) doesn't allow that once a country becomes Muslim it goes back to officially belonging to another religion. That obviously would include, well, nearly the whole of Europe, so I find it pretty disturbing that the Islamic world is advancing there in high proportions. England, a country and people that are very dear to my heart, seems to be a pressure cook ready to explode because of the rise of Muslim demographics.

Kol tov,
Fremen

I've been looking into this for a few years....here's what I gather....

What you're speaking of (I think) is the Islamic idea of the "waqf". That is, that Allah has given the land to Islam- some Muslims take that to mean the whole planet, incidentally. Others take it to mean previously occupied places as well as Arabia (so some of Southern and Eastern Europe would be included) and others mean it to take only places directly shown to be given to Muslims by Allah (eg. Israel).

Anyway- despite the obvious paranoia that occurs with each new wave of immigration to any country, there are actually Muslims that are afraid that they are losing the battle for souls in Europe and Africa (see this article and this article for some examples of many). The figures of converts are very trumped up by the Muslims and the rate of assimilation into western culture is phenomenal. Churches are reporting a lot of conversions from Islam. This has happened before. When the Roman Empire fell to the invading pagan armies, God converted the invaders and within a generation or so they were no longer pagan. So, no matter what, I'm not worried because God has promised that His Church would never fall. He's got this one under control.

 

[ChavaK]

The figures of converts are very trumped up by the Muslims and the rate of assimilation into western culture is phenomenal.

I suspect that the numbers of converts to Islam is trumped up,
but I also suspect they win more converts to Islam than they lose to
other faiths.

 

[ContraMundum]

I suspect that the numbers of converts to Islam is trumped up,
but I also suspect they win more converts to Islam than they lose to
other faiths.

Yes, I understand that many people would agree- but I'm not convinced. I believe their increase in numbers is relative to their birth rate. Their birth rate has increased with their standard of living, which is much higher in Europe than it would be in other places- not to mention the tremendous role western technology and charity has played in making their lives better in the East. I don't think they have such a convincing witness to their religion that people are flocking to it. A few do, but the rest of their growth appears to be attributable to having babies, IMHO.

 

[ChavaK]

I don't think they have such a convincing witness to their religion that people are flocking to it.

I hope not...the few obvious converts I've seen are generally women
that presumably converted to get married.

 

[ContraMundum]

I hope not...the few obvious converts I've seen are generally women
that presumably converted to get married.

BINGO! Exactly, thank you. I wasn't going to say it, but it seems to be true...or they convert to get divorced.

 

[Desert Rose]

.....
Have you ever taken any security measures to help prevent such an
attack, should one happen? Ever have any scares, or feelings of not
being safe in your own congregation?

Technically speaking, that attack would be hard to prevent, it happened inside parking structure. To protect the structure if its not a synagogue's property, you need to get a permit for surveillance cameras, or hire a private security company.

Antiterrorism and prevention is a diffucult and complicated task that involves so much in technology alone, to achieve any measurably effective results would consume huge chunk of any shul one church's budget.
But, luckily, terrorism is not a widespread threat in religious org-s in USA now, even though lone gunmen periodically go nuts and shoot, like in a baptist church in march, even Amish girls a couple years back...

Americans are indeed very lucky, because if it was not loners, but really terrorism, then, sorry for bold statement, guns are not the effective tools of mass extermination. Unlike bombs, and that we can't prevent unless we put metal detectors/ remove shoes before entering, airport style.

If there are responsible persons among congregation who have permits to carry and most importantly, who keep their skills sharp by regular target practices, then its smart to have them bring guns to services, just in case. Thats as much as we can , as i see it, realistically do.If there are enough - again, trained in at least basic security- volunteers, we can do security cameras. Otherwise... IMHO, a prayer would be the best defence.

 

[visionary]

There is an intent to injure and is carried out in a hostile, antagonistic spirit. And it is God's intent that we act and think like Yeshua, and pray for them for "they know not what they do" We are in a spiritual warfare, and if we do not realise that, we will lose even more spiritual freedoms as this hostile, antagonistic evil spirit continues to errode every truth we believe. Our brethren in faith may not believe everything exactly the same way that we do, but in one aspect we all have faith in God, the Father. Let us pray that the hostil evil spirit that divides us, persecutes us, tests our faith is rebuked in the Lord's name. Let us not look with consternation at what is slowly sneaking in upon us, with a woe is me, but fearlessly go forth in faith, bringing the good news to all who will listen. We know the time is short, we know that it will weary the saints in right doing, but that does not mean we should not help our brethren around the world. There are groups who have dedicated their lives to helping the persecuted around the world, and we should help them.

Persecuted Church Weblog: Egyptian Christians suffer from swine flu response

In this case, teaching them the biblical diet.

 

[zaksmummy]

Then I also recall a conversation with a Muslim guy I made friends with during a visit to Argentina. He said Islam was a peaceful religion, and that they only wanted the land that had previously belong to them at some point in History, because Islam somehow (I'm no expert and am only quoting him) doesn't allow that once a country becomes Muslim it goes back to officially belonging to another religion. That obviously would include, well, nearly the whole of Europe, so I find it pretty disturbing that the Islamic world is advancing there in high proportions. England, a country and people that are very dear to my heart, seems to be a pressure cook ready to explode because of the rise of Muslim demographics.

Kol tov,
Fremen

There was a politician about forty years ago who predicted "blood in the streets" because of the rise in immigration into the country. Its seems that he was correct - there have been over the past twenty years a number of riots associated with race relations and then there were the tube bomb attacks.

Peoples dislike of "foreigners" has really become apparent in th last few years, especially since the Labour government took over in 1997. The BNP are trying to capitalise on the immigration issue at the moment and it will continue to get worse I think leading up to the election, which will probably be in May - it usually is.

Its worse in the south and in the cities. Ive heard people complaining that the immigrants get all the council houses and lots of state benefits - this is probably a load of rubbish, but people who percieve they have little or nothing are very good at finding scapegoats.

 

[anisavta]

I found it interesting - this summer as I traveled to Oregon, even in these little podunk towns that not but a few years ago would not have even known what a Muslim was, on the streets were women in various degrees of Islamic headcover.

 

[Heber]

There was a politician about forty years ago who predicted "blood in the streets" because of the rise in immigration into the country. Its seems that he was correct - there have been over the past twenty years a number of riots associated with race relations and then there were the tube bomb attacks.

Peoples dislike of "foreigners" has really become apparent in th last few years, especially since the Labour government took over in 1997. The BNP are trying to capitalise on the immigration issue at the moment and it will continue to get worse I think leading up to the election, which will probably be in May - it usually is.

Its worse in the south and in the cities. Ive heard people complaining that the immigrants get all the council houses and lots of state benefits - this is probably a load of rubbish, but people who percieve they have little or nothing are very good at finding scapegoats.

Ah yes, Enoch Powell - who was in so much trouble for saying what ordinary folk had been saying for years. If he had been listened to we may not have, today, the extremists who walk the streets, on either side of the problem!


PS Our hall has been booked for an election in May (but don't tell the world that seems to be what Gordon Brown is planning!!!)

 

[Gxg (G²)]

To my knowledge, the only place Messiancs are targeted for persecution because they are Messianic is Israel. Some have nearly been killed and it's only a matter of time until some nut from Mea Shearim or a member of the Shas party takes bullets to them. Should Messianics take security measures in Israel? I don't know, but they could make a case for it I bet. Most Israelis would not take issue with them, I would guess.

Many Christians are already the victims of rampant, bloody terrorism. Those in Sudan and other parts of Africa are being killed as part of an "cleansing" program. Likewise in Pakistan, where villages are destroyed and the people slaughtered almost weekly. In Egypt it is commonplace. It is said that Christianity is the most persecuted major religion in the world. We don't grasp that concept in the West because we are too concerned with American Idol etc and don't want to find out about the rest of the planet. Learn more here.

In other words, you don't have to be Jewish to be the target of terrorism. It bothers me that when an entire Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Bhuddist villiage is slaughtered and razed to the ground it doesn't make the news.

I don't think the experience of the Americans and British here on this forum compares, frankly. I don't know why people desire to portray a persecution situation comparable to the Jews. We all have it easy in this part of the world- Jew and Gentile alike. Vandalism of property and heckling from detractors happens to all religions, everywhere, at any time. As for Christians, I think most Christians- regardless of background- have been the victims of that at one point or another, but we shouldn't let it bother us, should we? We were told it would happen.

In the West, where we have religious freedom, Christians don't take a lot of security precautions because a) we're not afraid of death, b) all are welcome in the church and c) it's not likely to happen so why live in fear? It might happen in some parts of the US where people are afraid of everything from escalators to the neighbours' dog but I haven't come across it yet.

As for my congregation- no security, no cameras. Shoot us if you wish, we will still pray for you.

Raises the question if, when danger is present, if the churches should endorse body guards or self-defense