Confused

[kamiller1972]

Please forgive me if this question/topic has been asked over and over, but I am just so very confused:

We are given the Law in the Old Testament. Then we are given Grace in the New Testament.

Does that mean that God condoned everything in the Old Testament? The many wives, the second class citizenship of women (from what I have read, it seems many were treated as property...there is law that states that if a woman cannot prove she was raped, she is stoned to death (???)...)

Forgive me...I am a very new Christian. There is no doubt in my heart...Jesus is very much my saviour. I want to read and study the word of God very much, but find it difficult to do so when it comes to the Old Testament.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Please forgive me if this question/topic has been asked over and over, but I am just so very confused:

We are given the Law in the Old Testament. Then we are given Grace in the New Testament.

Does that mean that God condoned everything in the Old Testament? The many wives, the second class citizenship of women (from what I have read, it seems many were treated as property...there is law that states that if a woman cannot prove she was raped, she is stoned to death (???)...)

Forgive me...I am a very new Christian. There is no doubt in my heart...Jesus is very much my saviour. I want to read and study the word of God very much, but find it difficult to do so when it comes to the Old Testament.

In the first place Grace was not given in the New Testament. Grace was given since the first time men sinned.

So in the OT God did not condone everything as you say. Many of the rules God gave to the church in the wilderness or Children of Israel in the wilderness seems to be very harsh. God was trying to show them how serious sin is.

Let me explain a bit about the laws and its purpose. First to establish some facts.
1. Sin is the trangression of the law. It is a sin to do something against the command of God.
2. Grace is God's mercy and pardon for the sins we commit so that they are no longer held against us.
3. The blood of Jesus washes away sins. The bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Once sins need to be forgiven there must be shedding of blood.

Because Jesus Christ had not shed his blood on the cross, a temporary system was set up as a representation and shadow of how God deals with the sin problem. When someone sinned (broke God's law) what did he have to do in the OT? He needed to sacrifice a lamb and spill it's blood symbolizing Jesus Christ shedding his blood on the cross for our atonement. Because of this, there needed to be laws to dictate how these ordinances and sacrificial services must be. Furthermore there was a priestly system with an earthly sanctuary as well which was a pattern of the heavenly sanctuary.

So firstly there was God's moral laws which tells you what is right and what is wrong. We call these the 10 commandments. When a man sinned he needed to use the temporary system that was set up in order to get forgiveness for his sins and there were specific laws taking about that process. Therefore you would realize that certain laws had different purposes.

Furthermore the children of Israel was a Church State. There were priests and prophets but there were also judges and so Moses had to be their spiritual and civil leader. Like any society there must be laws to govern it. So for instance, when someone broke God's moral law there were punished according to the "law of the land" so to speak which says what to do when someone committed certain sins. When Israel changed as a civil society these laws also changed. When Israel decided they wanted a King much like the other nations then the King decided what happened when someone was found in sin.

Let me give you an example to prove that this changed. Bathsheba would have been stonned to death for committing adultery with David in Moses say, but since David was King of Israel he had authority to change these kind of laws. David could not have said that Adultery is no longer a sin because that is apart of God's moral law. But David could have said a woman caught in adultery must pay a fine to the King or something like that. In other words he had power because he was the civil leader to change all of these civil laws.

So the law has it purpose but in no time and in no way was the law ever meant to give anyone salvation. Salvation has always been through grace.

 

[kamiller1972]

In the first place Grace was not given in the New Testament. Grace was given since the first time men sinned.

So in the OT God did not condone everything as you say. Many of the rules God gave to the church in the wilderness or Children of Israel in the wilderness seems to be very harsh. God was trying to show them how serious sin is.

Let me explain a bit about the laws and its purpose. First to establish some facts.
1. Sin is the trangression of the law. It is a sin to do something against the command of God.
2. Grace is God's mercy and pardon for the sins we commit so that they are no longer held against us.
3. The blood of Jesus washes away sins. The bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no remission. Once sins need to be forgiven there must be shedding of blood.

Because Jesus Christ had not shed his blood on the cross, a temporary system was set up as a representation and shadow of how God deals with the sin problem. When someone sinned (broke God's law) what did he have to do in the OT? He needed to sacrifice a lamb and spill it's blood symbolizing Jesus Christ shedding his blood on the cross for our atonement. Because of this, there needed to be laws to dictate how these ordinances and sacrificial services must be. Furthermore there was a priestly system with an earthly sanctuary as well which was a pattern of the heavenly sanctuary.

So firstly there was God's moral laws which tells you what is right and what is wrong. We call these the 10 commandments. When a man sinned he needed to use the temporary system that was set up in order to get forgiveness for his sins and there were specific laws taking about that process. Therefore you would realize that certain laws had different purposes.

Furthermore the children of Israel was a Church State. There were priests and prophets but there were also judges and so Moses had to be their spiritual and civil leader. Like any society there must be laws to govern it. So for instance, when someone broke God's moral law there were punished according to the "law of the land" so to speak which says what to do when someone committed certain sins. When Israel changed as a civil society these laws also changed. When Israel decided they wanted a King much like the other nations then the King decided what happened when someone was found in sin.

Let me give you an example to prove that this changed. Bathsheba would have been stonned to death for committing adultery with David in Moses say, but since David was King of Israel he had authority to change these kind of laws. David could not have said that Adultery is no longer a sin because that is apart of God's moral law. But David could have said a woman caught in adultery must pay a fine to the King or something like that. In other words he had power because he was the civil leader to change all of these civil laws.

So the law has it purpose but in no time and in no way was the law ever meant to give anyone salvation. Salvation has always been through grace.

Thank you! This has given me much to think about.

 

[LilLamb219]

There is Law and Gospel in both of the testaments...in Genesis God gives the promise of a Savior, so right off the bat we have our Gospel, the good news!

In the Old Testament, God was setting a group of peoples aside for His purpose. He was strict with them, but that's because man kept straying and God would continually pull them back to Him so that He could bless them...man would stray again, God would get mad but He would pull His people to him over and over again so that they would be blessed.

We are by nature enemies of wrath but God loves us so much that He came to earth in the form of man to die in our place!

 

[timf]

We are given the Law in the Old Testament. Then we are given Grace in the New Testament.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

The death penalty was more widely prescribed than today. Promiscuous women, rebellious sons, and others were to be killed. The two people on crosses next to Jesus were both thieves.

The tough laws of God were to protect the nation of Israel. If they had been faithful, they would have had God's blessings. By ignoring those laws, they brought calamity upon themselves. The record of what they did was kept for our benefit.

1 Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

People under the law were supposed to realize that they couldn't keep the law and needed Jesus;

Romans 7:23-24 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

However, people like the Pharisees actually thought they had kept the law and Jesus showed them that it was impossible;

Matthew 5:21-22 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The grace God gives us shows us that as we die to ourselves, we make more room in us for His Holy Spirit to work. According to 1 Corinthians 13, the Biblical definition of love is essentially selflessness. Without self there is not much to break the law.

Romans 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

[Peripatetic]

Remember that some of the laws in the old testament were given so that the nation of Israel could be strongly established. For example, the OT law says not to marry someone from another race. That was important so that the nation wouldn't just disappear into a mixture of races and cultures. There is no such law for us now.

Some of it was cultural too. Multiple wives and the lower standing of women was normal everywhere. The OT laws were radical enough to be difficult for Israel. Even the notion of one God was very unusual back then, so maybe it wasn't in God's plan to change it all at once. Of course Jesus would challenge these practices later on.

Finally, we can't always equate biblical concepts from thousands of years ago to those of our day. Slavery is a good example. We think of slavery as a terrible victimization of people being used like objects. Slavery was different in Biblical times. In many cases, a person would sell himself into slavery as a "bond servant" to pay off debts for a period of time. That is: trade work for a place to live and payback of debts. Of course there were evil forms of slavery back then too, but it could also be done with mutual respect and benefit as part of the local economy.

 

[kamiller1972]

Wow! Y'all have given me a lot to ponder and think about. I really appreciate all the input. I feel this does relieve some of the anxiety I was having when reading certain passages of the Old Testament. Thank you!

 

[asiyreh]

I have a theory about this male dominance thing in the Hebrew society. Now this is only a theory, please don't beat me sisters, it's a thought in my head, something that the Holy Spirit is working on at the moment. It will probably be allot more complete and established, with biblical doctrine in a few months time, it's not complete at the moment... but anyway here goes...

*eyes all the women in the room nervously.

Hehe

Ok so have a look at the majority response of a woman to any particular question asked by someone. You'll usually find that response carries a great deal of emotion with it. This is obviously not all women but a majority. Men will tend to be very law based in there responses, this is the biblical doctrine, now go do it, they'll say.

Now I think Christ had a great plan in creating man and women one seems to temper the other. If it weren't for women all us men would probably have this pharisee view of the gospel by now. All law and no spirit. On the flip side if it weren't for the men well the gospel message might be some type of, free love, hippie movement by now. Of course we have to factor the Holy Spirit as well, but you take my meaning.

So why the men then in Jewish culture and not the woman.
Well that law had to be preserved in it's entirety! There's something very important in it's preservation.

Look what Christ says here in Matthew.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matthew 5:18

So obviously that law thing is something extremely essential in Christ's battle plan, and that how we've got to look at the Jewish culture. A battleplan for salvation. I want to talk more about that later. But for this one portion of Kam's question.... Was this male dominance a protection of the law thing? Maybe... it's just a theory but maybe.

 

[kamiller1972]

I have a theory about this male dominance thing in the Hebrew society. Now this is only a theory, please don't beat me sisters, it's a thought in my head, something that the Holy Spirit is working on at the moment. It will probably be allot more complete and established, with biblical doctrine in a few months time, it's not complete at the moment... but anyway here goes...

*eyes all the women in the room nervously.

Hehe

Ok so have a look at the majority response of a woman to any particular question asked by someone. You'll usually find that response carries a great deal of emotion with it. This is obviously not all women but a majority. Men will tend to be very law based in there responses, this is the biblical doctrine, now go do it, they'll say.

Now I think Christ had a great plan in creating man and women one seems to temper the other. If it weren't for women all us men would probably have this pharisee view of the gospel by now. All law and no spirit. On the flip side if it weren't for the men well the gospel message might be some type of free love hippie movement by now.

So why the men then in Jewish culture and not the woman.
Well that law had to be preserved in it's entirety! There's something very important in it's preservation.

Look what Christ says here in Matthew.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Matthew 5:18

So obviously that law thing is something extremely essential in Christ's battle plan, and that how we've got to look at the Jewish culture. A battleplan for salvation. I want to talk more about that later. But for this one portion of Kam's question.... Was this male dominance a protection of the law thing? Maybe... it's just a theory but maybe.

I actually think this makes some sense...you can stop being nervous now, lol.

 

[Emmy]

Dear kamiller 1972. Yes, there seems to be quite a difference between the Old= and New Testament. But Jesus gave us good advice, In Matthews 22, verses 35-40, Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is:
Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus states this great fact: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God wants Love from us, with hearts, souls, and minds, and also love for our neighbour, as we love ourselves. God wants selfless love, no strings attached.
The Old Testament is mainly a History of the Israelites, and in the New Testament Jesus showed us what God wants from us: Love with all our beings, and love for our neighbour, ( all we know and all we meet) love as we love ourselves. Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love. Jesus told us to" Ask and receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. (our neighbour)
God will see our efforts to Love God, and have love and charity for our neighbour. God will approve, and God will bless us. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we get up and ask God for Forgiveness, and carry on loving and caring.
I say this with love, karmiller1972. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

 

[kamiller1972]

Dear kamiller 1972. Yes, there seems to be quite a difference between the Old= and New Testament. But Jesus gave us good advice, In Matthews 22, verses 35-40, Jesus tells a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is:
Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus states this great fact: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
God wants Love from us, with hearts, souls, and minds, and also love for our neighbour, as we love ourselves. God wants selfless love, no strings attached.
The Old Testament is mainly a History of the Israelites, and in the New Testament Jesus showed us what God wants from us: Love with all our beings, and love for our neighbour, ( all we know and all we meet) love as we love ourselves. Jesus will give us His Love and Joy, and the Holy Spirit will empower us with His Love. Jesus told us to" Ask and receive," then we thank God and share all Love and Joy with all around us. (our neighbour)
God will see our efforts to Love God, and have love and charity for our neighbour. God will approve, and God will bless us. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we get up and ask God for Forgiveness, and carry on loving and caring.
I say this with love, karmiller1972. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.

Thank you for your words of wisdom. It helps greatly!

 

[Echetus]

The Law is the knowledge of Sin and Acknowledgement of the need of Jesus. By no means was the law abolished. Should we sin to let grace abound? God Forbid. Israel is the Holy Nation, the first of Civilization. The Jews were unable to uphold the law, and God exiled them. But now Jesus has redeemed the Gentiles(Non Jews), and made them a Blessing to Israel, just as Abraham was promised that He will be the Father of many Nations. Not one jot of the law will be abolished.
Women arent equal. It was the woman that was deceived. The purpose of woman is to serve man. Would you rather obey God, or obey your own sinful nature. Sarah the wife of Abraham did call him "Master".

 

[asiyreh]

The purpose of woman is to serve man.

Whao!

and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Mark 10:8

Not one jot of the law will be abolished.

"The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." Decretal, de Tranlatic Episcop.

Amazing the audacity!

 

[kamiller1972]

The Law is the knowledge of Sin and Acknowledgment of the need of Jesus. By no means was the law abolished. Should we sin to let grace abound? God Forbid. Israel is the Holy Nation, the first of Civilization. The Jews were unable to uphold the law, and God exiled them. But now Jesus has redeemed the Gentiles(Non Jews), and made them a Blessing to Israel, just as Abraham was promised that He will be the Father of many Nations. Not one jot of the law will be abolished.
Women arent equal. It was the woman that was deceived. The purpose of woman is to serve man. Would you rather obey God, or obey your own sinful nature. Sarah the wife of Abraham did call him "Master".

Um...sorry, don't agree with that at all, no disrespect. My husband, who considers himself a Christian Fundamentalist (his meaning for this is that he follows the fundamentals of the Bible and the 10 Commandments), states that we are both equal. When it comes down to major decision making, he makes the final decision but if it turns out he was wrong, then he acknowledges this and we go with my decision. He would NEVER want me calling him "Master" and I never would either way. My only Master is my Lord and Saviour, thank you very much.

 

[Harry3142]

kamiller1972-

The purpose of the OT laws was never to obtain salvation. Instead, they were intended as a 'constitution' in the same manner as The code of Hammurabi was. So long as all of the people obeyed this same set of laws their society would grow and prosper. But there it ended. Even the promise made by God as a reward for keeping the laws of Torah had nothing whatsoever to do with an afterlife:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

There is the agreement. In return for the hebrews' keeping the laws and commandments of Torah in this life, including The Ten Commandments, they would be rewarded in this life. There was to be no thought of there being an afterlife, muchless their earning a place in it through the keeping of these laws and commandments. The only 'afterlife' they were to accept was this:

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19,NIV

So what are they referring to in the New Testament when they refer to laws and commandments which needed to be obeyed in order to attain salvation? They're referring to all the laws that they had written after the time that the Torah was written in order to convert the laws of Torah from societal laws to salvific laws. There were over 1,000 laws in a subset attached to the Sabbath commandment alone, and in order to keep that commandment in a way that could earn the person his own salvation every one of those 1,000+ laws had to be obeyed. The other commandments also had laws in subsets attached to them. That's why Jesus berated the Pharisees for putting heavy burdens on the people. The 'burdens' were all the laws in these subsets that they insisted must be obeyed in order to merit salvation.

I hope this helps. God bless-

 

[kamiller1972]

kamiller1972-

The purpose of the OT laws was never to obtain salvation. Instead, they were intended as a 'constitution' in the same manner as The code of Hammurabi was. So long as all of the people obeyed this same set of laws their society would grow and prosper. But there it ended. Even the promise made by God as a reward for keeping the laws of Torah had nothing whatsoever to do with an afterlife:

If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your forefathers. He will love you and bless you and increase your numbers. He will bless the fruit of your womb, the crops of your land - your grain, new wine and oil - the calves of your herds and the lambs of your flocks in the land that he swore to your forefathers to give you. You will be blessed more than any other people; none of your men or women will be childless, nor any of your livestock without young. The Lord will keep you free from every disease. He will not inflict on you the horrible diseases you knew in Egypt, but he will inflict them on all who hate you. (Deuteronomy 7:12-15,NIV)

There is the agreement. In return for the hebrews' keeping the laws and commandments of Torah in this life, including The Ten Commandments, they would be rewarded in this life. There was to be no thought of there being an afterlife, muchless their earning a place in it through the keeping of these laws and commandments. The only 'afterlife' they were to accept was this:

"By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19,NIV

So what are they referring to in the New Testament when they refer to laws and commandments which needed to be obeyed in order to attain salvation? They're referring to all the laws that they had written after the time that the Torah was written in order to convert the laws of Torah from societal laws to salvific laws. There were over 1,000 laws in a subset attached to the Sabbath commandment alone, and in order to keep that commandment in a way that could earn the person his own salvation every one of those 1,000+ laws had to be obeyed. The other commandments also had laws in subsets attached to them. That's why Jesus berated the Pharisees for putting heavy burdens on the people. The 'burdens' were all the laws in these subsets that they insisted must be obeyed in order to merit salvation.

I hope this helps. God bless-

Thank you so much. This does help very much! God bless.

 

[LilLamb219]

God never intended for women to be demeaned by men and to be reduced to inferior servants. If you look at how scriptures talk of Christ being a bridegroom and the Church His bride, you'll see the concept of how man is to take care of a woman and how the woman does things for her man...it's about love, respect, mercy, compassion, etc... all those things that love are.

Okay, just had to interject that in here

 

[kamiller1972]

God never intended for women to be demeaned by men and to be reduced to inferior servants. If you look at how scriptures talk of Christ being a bridegroom and the Church His bride, you'll see the concept of how man is to take care of a woman and how the woman does things for her man...it's about love, respect, mercy, compassion, etc... all those things that love are.

Okay, just had to interject that in here

Yes ma'am! Couldn't agree with you more! Amen!

 

[Wells Marsh]

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. </SPAN>

A Christian really should have a firm foundation in grace and truth from the New Testament before trying to study the Old Testament. One way to begin is to study the books of Romans and Galatians. The first 7 chapters of Romans, and the first 4 chapters of Galatians will lay a foundation. The remaining chapters of these two books will build on that foundation.

Take your time, ask the Holy Spirit (the teacher) to give you understanding, and enjoy!

 

[kamiller1972]

John 1:17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. </SPAN>

A Christian really should have a firm foundation in grace and truth from the New Testament before trying to study the Old Testament. One way to begin is to study the books of Romans and Galatians. The first 7 chapters of Romans, and the first 4 chapters of Galatians will lay a foundation. The remaining chapters of these two books will build on that foundation.

Take your time, ask the Holy Spirit (the teacher) to give you understanding, and enjoy!

That's really beautiful! Thank you so much for your feedback! It has been helping me so much! Especially today when it has been much needed!