confused and frustrated

[ana811]

Hi, I'm new to these forums. I grew up in a Assembly of God church which is Armenian in belief and was always taught we had free will and could choose to be saved and believe in Jesus, but I was also taught you could lose your salvation. It was always a mystery at what point you sinned too much and God would stop forgiving you. So consequently I was always very worried about whether or not I had lost my salvation. Now I'm studying Calvinism because I feel much of what I have been taught is in error. However, I'm wondering how do you know if you are one of the elect? How can you really know you are saved? I'm just all confused. Please help.

 

[ana811]

Jonas,

Thanks for your reply...I guess I'm still somewhat stuck in a works mentality. But what you said makes sense.

 

[ana811]

I agree salvation is not by your works or else Jesus death and resurrection is worthless. However, after coming to the realization that it is only Christ and Christ alone who saves, are not Christians required to live a righteous life? Are you saying that anyone who trusts that Christ has covered their sin on the cross goes to heaven regardless of how they live their life? Doesn’t the Bible call us to live holy lives? Doesn’t James 2 indicate that faith is dead without works? James 2:24 “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Please explain.

 

[pinkieposies]

I agree salvation is not by your works or else Jesus death and resurrection is worthless. However, after coming to the realization that it is only Christ and Christ alone who saves, are not Christians required to live a righteous life?

Yes! It is what we as Christians are called to do, in thankfulness for God's saving grace and the redemption we have in Christ. However, it is not what actually saves us.

Are you saying that anyone who trusts that Christ has covered their sin on the cross goes to heaven regardless of how they live their life?

Well, if someone who claims they are a saved Christian is going around purposely commiting sin against God because he thinks there will be no consequences, he probably wasn't really saved to begin with. Does that make sense?

God Bless,
Erin

 

[ana811]

Erin,

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I was getting the impression from Jonas that you can just have faith and be saved and live how you want. Maybe I just misunderstood. Thanks

 

[edie19]

Hi, I'm new to these forums. I grew up in a Assembly of God church which is Armenian in belief and was always taught we had free will and could choose to be saved and believe in Jesus, but I was also taught you could lose your salvation. It was always a mystery at what point you sinned too much and God would stop forgiving you. So consequently I was always very worried about whether or not I had lost my salvation. Now I'm studying Calvinism because I feel much of what I have been taught is in error. However, I'm wondering how do you know if you are one of the elect? How can you really know you are saved? I'm just all confused. Please help.

First welcome - there are many knowledgable folks here who are more than happy to answer your questions and share their knowledge of reformed doctrine.

An excellent resource most on the SR would recommend:
www.monergism.com

How do we know we're saved - we leave our former way of living, we have concern for the Lord and His law. As we grow in our understanding of God we have no desire to sin. Instead we seek after righteousness, we love our neighbors. Jesus gave us the standard - He was patient, kind, truthful, respectful, encouraging - do we do these things for those around us. We look at God's commandments as a guide by which to live, we love His word. Do we succeed in these things 100% of the time - hardly. But, we have confidence in the promises that He has given us - we recognize that Jesus the Christ lived a 100% holy life (something we can never do), suffered the punishment we deserve and we can be confident in the promises God has made.

edie

For non-reformed theologies..."at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God -- and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place."
- D.A. Carson
​

 

[ana811]

...at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer.

This is exactly why I ended up having a problem with arminian theology. It was way too stressful. Every messege was about what more you had to do and how you weren't doing well enough and it just gets draining and you feel like God doesn't love you and puts all these requirements on you that are impossible to meet and it really causes you to question if you are really saved and get confused because at the same time they are telling you it's not you it's God...but the next breath is but you must do this or that...but then I was getting the impression that on the other side of the fence it's not you at all, it's God and it doesn't matter what you do. And both seemed to not make sense. But thanks edb19 for your explanation.

 

[edie19]

Erin,

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I was getting the impression from Jonas that you can just have faith and be saved and live how you want. Maybe I just misunderstood. Thanks

Ana,
I'm going to share another post of Jonas'.

For starters, I am NOT a "Calvinist". . . .

Additionally, Jonas regularly refers to a website that is highly critical of the Reformed and/or Calvinistic doctrine. This same website criticizes such theologians as A.W. Pink, John Calvin, J.I. Packer and Charles Spurgeon.

I don't want to get into a doctrinal argument with Jonas here. But you are posting on the "Ask a Calvinist" thread and sadly, he's the one answering you so far. As I said in my previous post - there are some very knowledgable men and women on the reformed forum. IMNSHO, you'll get better responses from them.

edie

 

[ana811]

Edie,

I completely missed that...thanks for pointing that out...I'm meeting with my Pastor tonight (PCA church) and thought about printing out what he said and asking him is this what Calvinists believe.

 

[edie19]

Edie,

I completely missed that...thanks for pointing that out...I'm meeting with my Pastor tonight (PCA church) and thought about printing out what he said and asking him is this what Calvinists believe.

ana,

While you're meeting with your pastor tonight - have him get out his copy of the Westminster Confession of Faith (he darn well better have one!!) and ask him to review the chapter on the assurance of grace and salvation. I say chapter, but it is really only 4 paragraphs plus Scripture references.

edie

 

[Bob Moore]

Erin,

Yes, that makes perfect sense. I was getting the impression from Jonas that you can just have faith and be saved and live how you want. Maybe I just misunderstood. Thanks

Let's have a look at the Scripture, shall we?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Read the rest of Hebrews 11 for much more on faith.

And continuing in wilfull sin is out of the question because, Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (see also Romans 6:1)

In fact, one of the most useful gauges of saving faith is the evidence of what, if anything, has happened to the life of the person. We know that the scripture says, in 2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. So then, if the person's life does not show that the old things have passed away (this must not be taken to imply perfection) that fact is grounds for doubt about that person's status before God. Now let me be perfectly clear about this: confidently expect your life to be entirely different, but do not be surprised when you stumble, because you will. The thing that is different after salvation is that you then have the power of God to sustain you through trials. Before receiving the gift of saving faith one has only one's own resources and they are patently not up to the task.

And do not worry about loosing what God has given. See John 10:26-29.

 

[Rolf Ernst]

I agree salvation is not by your works or else Jesus death and resurrection is worthless. However, after coming to the realization that it is only Christ and Christ alone who saves, are not Christians required to live a righteous life? Are you saying that anyone who trusts that Christ has covered their sin on the cross goes to heaven regardless of how they live their life? Doesn’t the Bible call us to live holy lives? Doesn’t James 2 indicate that faith is dead without works? James 2:24 “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Please explain.

You are right! A life not improved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a life that has never been regenerated.

Jesus came to save His people from their sins and sanctification which brings the true believer to increased levels of holiness is a consequence of the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the life of believers. BUT we must be careful that we do not offend God by thinking we are adding something to His work of salvation. That would be trusting in ourselves to some extent rather than wholly leaning upon Jesus.

We must beware of thinking we are to some extent saved by our works of faith. We are not saved BY our works, but we are saved UNTO good works which God has before ordained that we should walk in them. Works are not part of the purchase of our salvation. They are the result of the salvation which He works in us. So the Bible truly testifies, "Without holiness, no man shall see God." The Bible is not saying by these words, do this and you will be saved. It is saying that everyone who sees God will have upon him the marks of the increased holiness which the Holy Spirit and Christ worked in him through the process of sanctification; that is, through the progressive improvement of their thoughts, words, and deeds toward holiness.

 

[Jesus1stKing]

Let's have a look at the Scripture, shall we?

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Read the rest of Hebrews 11 for much more on faith.

And continuing in wilfull sin is out of the question because, Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. (see also Romans 6:1)

In fact, one of the most useful gauges of saving faith is the evidence of what, if anything, has happened to the life of the person. We know that the scripture says, in 2 Corinthians 5:17, Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. So then, if the person's life does not show that the old things have passed away (this must not be taken to imply perfection) that fact is grounds for doubt about that person's status before God. Now let me be perfectly clear about this: confidently expect your life to be entirely different, but do not be surprised when you stumble, because you will. The thing that is different after salvation is that you then have the power of God to sustain you through trials. Before receiving the gift of saving faith one has only one's own resources and they are patently not up to the task.

And do not worry about loosing what God has given. See John 10:26-29.

Well said!

 

[Jesus1stKing]

I go to a "Non-Denominational" church [Calvary Chapel of Tucson] which is rapidly spreading across the US and around the world.

With that said here is something you must read if you want a clear view of Calvinism, Arminianism, & the Word of God. This should help clear matters up quickly and easily with out getting lost in others opinions;as good and well intentioned as they may be.
Please P/M me and let me know what you think after you get a chance to read this. It is a pretty quick and easy read, although it may take a while to digest afterwords.
http://www.calvarytucson.org/PDF/caatwog.pdf

 

[jonas3]

I agree salvation is not by your works or else Jesus death and resurrection is worthless. However, after coming to the realization that it is only Christ and Christ alone who saves, are not Christians required to live a righteous life?

Yes

Are you saying that anyone who trusts that Christ has covered their sin on the cross goes to heaven regardless of how they live their life?

I will say this, a Christian (i.e. one who believes the gospel) would not be a Christian if they had no regard for God's commandments. A Christian does not serve sin, as it is written, "1 What then shall we say? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Let it not be! We who died to sin, how shall we still live in it?" - Ro 6:1-2 (LITV). Please read all of Romans chapter 6 as it discusses this very issue.

Doesn’t the Bible call us to live holy lives?

The Bible calls Christians to live holy lives. Christians do not attempt to keep God's commandments in an effort to gain or maintain salvation. Christians strive to be obedient out of a love for Jesus Christ who first loved them.

Doesn’t James 2 indicate that faith is dead without works? James 2:24 “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Please explain.

“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” – James 2:26


If a man says that he has faith, but does not have any accompanying good works, then his faith is a dead faith. If a man has true faith, then his works will show forth this faith. The works do not justify a man’s profession of faith and make the faith real, but rather, the works show forth that a man has real faith. There exists no Christian who has true faith, and does not have good works. And what are good works? They are the keeping of God’s commandments, which naturally flow from a regenerate person; therefore, all who have true faith have good works.

“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” – 1Jn 2:4.

God’s people strive to keep His commandments because of the truth, or the Spirit, that is in them. On the contrary, we can know that the truth is NOT in a person (i.e. they’re unregenerate) if they profess to believe in Jesus Christ, but have no regard for His commandments. Now, I want to clarify something. By someone's lawless form of life we may know that they are unregenerate and not Christians; however, simply by someone's "law-keeping", or by their "good deeds" we CANNOT know if they are a true Christian. There are many whose lives appear to conform to the law of God who are yet unregenerate. These people may have a "form of godliness" (2Tim 3:5), but they are unregenerate. The end of the "good deeds" of the unregenerate is death, because they think their works are acceptable for their salvation, or that God is pleased by their doing of them, even when they deny the gospel. Therefore, we can know that someone is unregenerate if they have no regard for God’s commandments, which is what the apostle John is saying in the above verse, but we CANNOT know that someone is regenerate simply by their commandment keeping (i.e. good works).

Remember, true faith is always accompanied with good works; however, “good works” are not always accompanied with true faith.

Please feel free to ask any questions,
-jonas

 

[Bob Moore]

With that said here is something you must read if you want a clear view of Calvinism, Arminianism, & the Word of God. This should help clear matters up quickly and easily with out getting lost in others opinions;as good and well intentioned as they may be.
Please P/M me and let me know what you think after you get a chance to read this. It is a pretty quick and easy read, although it may take a while to digest afterwords.
http://www.calvarytucson.org/PDF/caatwog.pdf

[/quote]

There are a number of red flags just in the first couple of pages. "No desire to be divisive nor dogmatic". But that is the very essence of Christianity. It is incredibly divisive because Christians stand for the light that the world hates. Therefore, if any church refuses to recognize that it's very existence is divisive I would proceed with caution. On page 2 we find a statement that being loving is more important than holding correct theology. That is relativism, and it has no place in the church. You can easily love and tolerate a man right into hell because you didn't have the courage to tell him the truth. (Actually that is arguable, but I use it hyperbollically to make a point). The majority report among evangelical churches is to one degree or another Arminian. And there is a marked degree of Arminian theology in the referenced link. But Arminius was condemned as a heretic just as were Pellagius and Cassian. But come to think about it, there is no heresy I can recall that has ever been put down finally and completely. Century after century they rise up in different guise.

But I will say this, no church has it all right. There are areas where disagreement is perfectly acceptable, but any church that values unity more than truth has to be suspect, and Calvary chapels own words reveal that they do.

 

[JJB]

There are a number of red flags just in the first couple of pages. "No desire to be divisive nor dogmatic". But that is the very essence of Christianity. It is incredibly divisive because Christians stand for the light that the world hates. Therefore, if any church refuses to recognize that it's very existence is divisive I would proceed with caution. On page 2 we find a statement that being loving is more important than holding correct theology. That is relativism, and it has no place in the church. You can easily love and tolerate a man right into hell because you didn't have the courage to tell him the truth. (Actually that is arguable, but I use it hyperbollically to make a point). The majority report among evangelical churches is to one degree or another Arminian. And there is a marked degree of Arminian theology in the referenced link. But Arminius was condemned as a heretic just as were Pellagius and Cassian. But come to think about it, there is no heresy I can recall that has ever been put down finally and completely. Century after century they rise up in different guise.

But I will say this, no church has it all right. There are areas where disagreement is perfectly acceptable, but any church that values unity more than truth has to be suspect, and Calvary chapels own words reveal that they do.

I read through the Calvary chapel pamphlet as well and the verse that kept popping into my head is the one about hating your father and mother because of following Christ. The Gospel is not about getting along. It divides the sheep from the goats.

Luke 14:25Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.

 

[edie19]

Bob, Julie,

Thanks for the posts. I scannedthe Calvary Chapel stuff, a lot struck me as questionable, yet sounded "good". You obviously spent more time reviewing their website and pointed out some definite flaws in their theology.

edie

 

[Jesus1stKing]

There are a number of red flags just in the first couple of pages. "No desire to be divisive nor dogmatic". But that is the very essence of Christianity. It is incredibly divisive because Christians stand for the light that the world hates. Therefore, if any church refuses to recognize that it's very existence is divisive I would proceed with caution. .[/QUOTE]

Well I can see that you will find what you wish to see so perhapes there is NO point in my going on, But on the other hand there may be others that are willing to search and see with out approching it with a PREDETERMINED set of values. SO with that in mind I would like to say that "in context" what is being said is that they have no intention in creating rifts WITH IN christianity, for as you so aptly pointed out there exists enough in the rest of the world.

On page 2 we find a statement that being loving is more important than holding correct theology. That is relativism, and it has no place in the church.

Once again you have suceeded in finding what you were looking for at the price of removing it from CONTEXT. if you put the whole statement together you; NO someone else; would find that what is being discussed is: that it is a shame people are more concerned with 'Being Right', then being filled with the Love of the Holy Spirit, when it comes to discussions which commonly create rifts and divisions among the family of God.

The majority report among evangelical churches is to one degree or another Arminian. And there is a marked degree of Arminian theology in the referenced link. But Arminius was condemned as a heretic just as were Pellagius and Cassian. But come to think about it, there is no heresy I can recall that has ever been put down finally and completely. Century after century they rise up in different guise.

What "Majority Report"? Perhapes this was something put together by the "Moral Majority". {ROFL} I agree you and others as well will find doctrins supported by Aminianists, as well as Calvinists, Protestants, Lutherns, add infinitum. That is to say that there are good points in a lot of other doctrins, however the key is to NOT GOT LOST IN "DOCTRIN", but rather to search the scriptures dilligently and to follow the promptings of the Holy Spirit.

But I will say this, no church has it all right. There are areas where disagreement is perfectly acceptable, but any church that values unity more than truth has to be suspect, and Calvary chapels own words reveal that they do.

I am pleased that you can conceed a point, even if it is your own, but I stand by my suggestions that this document although prepared by my church has many good points in it's comparison, and that it does NOT say that their wayis the only right way to salvation. In fact the reason for this document is to edify and allow people to have a basis of information to pray over and search as the Spirit leads.

 

[Bob Moore]

Jesus1stKing,

I am pleased to see that you are as open minded and loving as your church.

By the way, I did not find "what I wished to see", I found what they said.

Here is something you said

SO with that in mind I would like to say that "in context" what is being said is that they have no intention in creating rifts WITH IN christianity, for as you so aptly pointed out there exists enough in the rest of the world.

You seem to think that using the appelation 'Christian' makes it so. It does not. Jesus never hesitated to point out error, and neither should His church.