Conflicting messages between God and Jesus?

dreadnought · Jan 28, 2018

If you are in intense pain, you will be trying to resolve that. You'll think about forgiveness later.

PeaceJoyLove · Jan 28, 2018

I don't disagree with this from a certain place one sees from...

Whose sins we hold are held... God is reconciling the world unto himself. The kingdom of heaven is within you...tribulation/suffering/pain are in the world. The call to come out of her and where we are 'seeing'/perceiving from have everything to do with the question asked of Adam in the garden, "Where art thou?"

Daniel Martinovich · Jan 28, 2018

Because the revelation of Gods word into the earth was progressive. That is what Jesus meant when he said I am come to fulfill as in fill up the law and the prophets not do away with them. Think of a glass half full that Jesus came to fill. The easiest thing to see this in is sickness and disease. In the OT it was attributed to God. In the NT to Satan. It's because of the way God progressively gave the world light and tolerated certain evils, even among his saints, until the time of reformation. When the messiah came.
Thankfully though. With the miraculous nature of God's Word. It was written in such a way that all of it is applicable as principle. In other words nothing has changed. Its just he way it is applied changes with the change in circumstances the world is in.
I have said a mouthful there. it's pretty deep and cannot be looked at superficially.

Cat Loaf You · Jan 28, 2018

It was eye for eye , then God send his Son Jesus Christ to die for your sin so Jesus proclaimed jubilee and because of that everybody was forgiven so no eye for eye .

Then Jews rejected Christ so he said sell your cloak and buy sword because i will be no longer with you .

Eye for eye was part of Law , Law way untill John read Luke 16:16 , then gospel of kingdom preached by Christ and today gospel by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

mukk_in · Jan 28, 2018

Nothing, actually. God's love is synonymous with His justice. As much as mercy triumphs over judgment, God will still judge the world. Those of us in Christ will escape His wrath. So God's justice and love co-exist, I believe. Peace in Christ.

curious mike · Jan 28, 2018

This is what I was referring to?

Exodus 21:23-25: “f there is harm, then you shall pay life for life,eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe

chilehed · Jan 28, 2018

Let the punishment fit the crime, and don't seek vengeance. No contradiction at all.

GirdYourLoins · Jan 28, 2018

I have been taught that "an eye for an eye" was a limitation in reasonable justice to be taken in revenge. In the culture at the time this law was given it would apparently not be unusual for someone to kill a person for taking their eye. An eye for an eye was saying they cant go any further than that. This fits with Jesus words as well which saying you wont even go up to the limit God set, but show mercy.

Apologetic_Warrior · Jan 28, 2018

The conflicts start to go away when we realize a few things...

Concerning Jesus and the commandments to love...

(Deut 6:5 [KJV])
And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

(Deut 10:12 [KJV])
And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

(Deut 11:13 [KJV])
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the LORD your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,

(Deut 13:3 [KJV])
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

(Deut 30:6 [KJV])
And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

(Josh 22:5 [KJV])
But take diligent heed to do the commandment and the law, which Moses the servant of the LORD charged you, to love the LORD your God, and to walk in all his ways, and to keep his commandments, and to cleave unto him, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul.

(Matt 22:37 [KJV])
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

(Mark 12:30 [KJV])
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

(Luke 10:27 [KJV])
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

So the commandments of Jesus to love, are the commandments of God, even quotes from the O.T.

Also concerning the Law and Prophets, Jesus said;

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

So with these Scriptures, the conflicts should be melting away because there is no conflict between God the Father and God the Son. The conflict is more in our interpretations of "an eye for an eye" and "turn the other cheek", but these are both qualities of God Himself, He is just, and He is merciful.

As for avoiding strife, which is conflict...

(Matt 5:10 [KJV])
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

(Matt 5:12 [KJV])
Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

(John 15:20 [KJV])
Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

(Acts 7:52 [KJV])
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

(1Cor 4:12 [KJV])
And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:

(2Cor 4:9 [KJV])
Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;

(Gal 4:29 [KJV])
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

(1Thess 2:15 [KJV])
Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:

For Christians, conflict is unavoidable, inevitable, it will happen to whatever extent or measure as God wills. And not only conflict with the world and the ways of the world, but with ourselves, in daily spiritual warfare. Life is nearly a constant battle, in one way or another. Praise God for the peace that passes all understanding.

Tom 1 · Jan 28, 2018

The OT regulation sets out a law for the tribe of Israel, later the nation of Israel. Jesus is talking about individual behaviour, not the authority of a national ruling body to carry out legal punishment.

dqhall · Jan 28, 2018

The legal doctrine of an eye for an eye is referred to as lex talionis; the law of revenge. It was found written on cuneiform tablets as part of the laws of King Hammarubi of Mesopotamia c. 1800 BC. This was from before the Bible was written. People reasoned if they did not destroy someone's eye, then they would not have to worry about it. Gandhi pointed out a weakness in the law. If someone takes an eye, a second person takes the first person's eye, then the third person takes the second person's eye until the whole world is blind.

I think "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" is in the category of laws made by men and not by God. Jesus' way of not taking out people's eyes works better than the whole world becoming blind. Desire for revenge has brought down many great men.

Colter · Jan 28, 2018

The Old Testament was written by humans not God. The OT is the human way, Jesus was the new, divine way.

The Times · Jan 28, 2018

The same being, through two personas administering the balance between justice and grace.

Deadworm · Jan 28, 2018

Posters have missed the key issue here--progressive revelation. Jesus' Sermon on the Mount places Him on a mount to present Him as the New Moses and the new Lawgiver prophesied in Deuteronomy 18:15-20. Jesus's status as the expected "Prophet like Moses" is universally recognized as a major theme in Matthean scholarship. As the New Lawgiver, Jesus both fulfills the OT Law and contradicts it.

For example, the Law allows a man to easily divorce his wife for any perceived "indecency (Deuteronomy 24:1-4)," an expression which Jewish men could twist for their own convenience. Jesus' prohibition of divorce (Mark 10:11-12) refutes that Law. Jesus explains this contradiction thus: "Because of your hardness of heart, he (Moses) wrote this commandment for you (10:5)." In other words, the Jews were not culturally open to God's true will in this matter; so progressive revelation was required. The Matthean exceptive clause ("except for unchastity") does not alter Jesus' insistence that marriage be treated as a lifelong commitment.

In fact, through Jeremiah, God makes it clear that He never authorized the Jewish system of sacrifice in the first place:

"In the day that I brought your ancestors out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to them or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them: Obey my voice and I will be your God, and you shall be my people; and walk only in the way that I command you, so that it may be well with you (7:22-23)."

The cultural need for progressive revelation required God to embrace the sacrifice system until Christ came and became "the end of the Law for everyone who believes (Romans 10:4)." Understandably, then, God often expresses His true aversion to the sacrifice system through the OT prophets.

Similarly, Jesus repudiates the OT Law of "an eye for an eye" in favor of His higher command to love one's enemies, turn the other cheek, and go the extra mile.
God's aversion to the vindictive and militaristic Israelite mindset is twice expressed empathically in Isaiah 2:4 and Micah 4:3:

"They shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up the sword against nation, neither shall they learn warcraft any more."

Jesus' repudiates the OT law of an eye for an eye in favor of His ethic of nonviolence and love of enemies to build on God's vision of global pacifism.

Neogaia777 · Jan 28, 2018

Some things are due to the Old Covenant, God's wrath was not satisfied till one met it, until that time, God was very angry sometimes, and now still is, but only with those who reject or do not have Christ, but not those who are under Christ...

And one met the righteous requirements of the Old Law Covenant, to institute a new covenant, now not involving anyone having to meet the requirements of the law any more to those who are in Christ, but are treated as if they did meet those requirements by freely believing in the one God sent, Christ, by faith...

To do this the new covenant caused the righteous one doing it to have to die, to seal the Covenant with blood... Otherwise, it could not happen...

Thank You Jesus!

God Bless!

Rescued One · Jan 28, 2018

Matthew 6
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Matthew 18
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Ephesians 4
32And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

SolomonVII · Jan 29, 2018

I think that justice is a basic rule of the world, much like gravity. We do not get away with anything, in the end. And if we die before justice is meted out to us personally, it is meted out to our sons and daughters, and to our society as a whole. Every lie we tell, every fraud we perpetuate, every violent act we impose, resonates across time. It all comes back on us.

The antidote to justice is repentance and forgiveness. Forgiveness is a miracle, much of the same order as walking on water, or rising on clouds. To defy the gravitas of justice is as miraculous as defying gravity itself. To shed tears of repentance on the feet of those we have wronged, and for them to then forgive us, miraculously erases the universal law of justice, as if gravity itself ceases to exist.
We do not know how, but we do know this is true. To have someone beg for our forgiveness, and to accept it, changes nothing, and yet, miraculously, it changes everything. Our perception of the world transforms before our very eyes. It restores the world to its original creation before the Fall. We forgive, and the relationship between the one who wrongs and the one who is wronged is restored in all of its glory, even better than it was before.

The Kingdom of Heaven has always been there. The Kingdom of Heaven is forgiveness, and if we want it, it is ours.

Until then, as the rainbow promises us, God has chose not to destroy the world, but to make it more durable and more capable of withstanding the blows of our sins. Sarah oppresses the Egyptian slave Hagar; the children of Sarah spend centuries in slavery oppressed by the Egyptians. That is wheels of Justice grinding on and on and on.

We do not get away with anything. But if we remember the times we were slaves in Egypt, we begin to understand the cycle of sin, and understand what it takes to break that cycle.

timewerx · Jan 29, 2018

I think you misunderstood this one. True love doesn't practice 100% tolerance. True love doesn't tolerate and encourage evil.

You must not have read Jesus making a whip out of chords to violently drive away the merchants at the temple

JoeP222w · Jan 29, 2018

Need some verse references to give the proper context.

curious mike · Jan 29, 2018

Ok guys, I've now read each and every post, thanks for all the insights. Let's switch gears a little please and let me ask you guys for your opinions on this issue. What had sparked this thread was last week I was having a discussion with a friend on my living environment and the many regualr evils which surrounds me. I had told the friend:

"I am trying to encourage the people here to stop sinning, for in this household and environment sinning is acceptable by some with responses I get being like "everybody sins". I am tired of telling people about their sins and getting into arguments over this. I feel like if I don't stop discussing God with them it's going to continue hampering my spiritual walk as it will only keep me frustrated and angry."

To this the friend said:
actually pointing out the sins of people is not the ideal way to minister to people....in fact ...scripture shows us different accounts were Jesus ministered with mercy....compassion.....to those that were in darkness....such as the woman caught in adultery....but even then after he delivered her from death ...as the law required her to be stoned to death....then be added sin no more.
More than anything its thru our example...our demonstration walking out the love of God toward others rather than making them feel guilty or shamed.
In fact Jesus had issue with those that claimed to be followers of his.....he would often ask questions to see where their true committment was......to see how if they truly trusted Him or other things."

I replied with "Of course we all know Jesus's message about love and forgiveness BUT even he reprimanded and got angry at people who were sinning when he had had enough and pointed out their sins, needless to say about God himself too."

To which the friend's reply was "Yes but His anger was primarily directed to the religious people/leaders...As mentioned Jesus mainly got angry at the hypocracy of the religious leaders, not individual people."

My thinking is Dreadnought is dead-on correct If you are in intense pain, you will be trying to resolve that. You'll think about forgiveness later.

If one is "realistic" that is. So my question you guys is, if I don't make the people around me aware of their lies, deceit, hypocrisy, racism, obscenities and debauchery, how will I ever get them to stop? I am not being smug or self-righteous, it's that these things mentioned above is directly affecting me. It's constant, never ending and I don't know how else to deal with these guys. Do I leave them alone and not mention anything when they are doing what's mentioned and do I keep being on the receiving end and do nothing just so I can falsely act like nothing is bothering me and respond in kindness?

Conflicting messages between God and Jesus?

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