Conflicting geneologies

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judge

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If we read matthews gospel we are told that Josephs father was called jacob, in Matt 1:16 

    and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

However in Lukes gospel in 3 :23-24 we are told that Heli ws josephs father.

In addition to this in matthews gospel we are told that there were 42 generation but there are only 41 in the text.

 

I believe the solution to this is that Mary's father was named Joseph as well as her husband. IOW Matt 1:16 should read Joseph the father of Mary.

This reading is confirmed in the Aramaic version of Matthew as used by the Assyrian COE in Aramaic, which differentiates between the two Josephs calling the Joseph in verse 16 "gowra" (father) and the one in Matt verse 19 bal'a (husband)

 

Any thought scholars?
 

Ima Knerd

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Matthew and Luke, though they both followed Mark, felt free to alter his earlier gospel as they saw fit.  And since John's community of believers saw Jesus existing before the begining of creation (and thus trumping the Genesis account), they saw no need for a geneology at all.

Both religious and atheistic fundamentalists have (and will) argue the differences between these two geneologies as long as they can, taking the literal words at face value and getting understandably upset when they don't perfectly agree.

The New Testament is not a secular history or biography in our modern sense of written communication.  It is a faith document which is more concerned with the importance of Jesus rather than the family history of his relatives.

 
 
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judge

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Originally posted by Aikido7


The New Testament is not a secular history or biography in our modern sense of written communication.  It is a faith document which is more concerned with the importance of Jesus rather than the family history of his relatives.

  [/B]

 

Yes, I've heard this theory, but I see no reason to take it seriously. Luke quite deliberately contradicts this at the beginnig of his story.
 
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Ima Knerd

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Ah, but Luke contradicts much of which is in the other gospels. And you misread his introduction to Theophilus. It not only claims human authorship by its very title, but states as clearly as possible a very practical human motivation and decision to write.

A careful reading of his introduction shows that there are other gospels and that they have been found wanting--thus, this new "orderly" or "systematic" account has been written.

Rather than bend and limit the faith to accomodate contradictions in the texts, it seems common sensical to mainstream biblical scholarship to go for the simplest explanation: the gospels were written by different people with different agendas. The evangelists were people, not parrots; thinkers, not memorizers.

Like us, they fashioned a Jesus that spoke to their present-day concerns.
 
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judge

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Originally posted by Aikido7

Rather than bend and limit the faith to accomodate contradictions in the texts, it seems common sensical to mainstream biblical scholarship to go for the simplest explanation: the gospels were written by different people with different agendas. The evangelists were people, not parrots; thinkers, not memorizers.

Like us, they fashioned a Jesus that spoke to their present-day concerns.

 

Yes and the moon is blue but bananas are yellow...ssshh..don't tell anyone. ;)
 
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Ima Knerd

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Originally posted by judge
 

Yes and the moon is blue but bananas are yellow...ssshh..don't tell anyone. ;)

It is an interesting idea to resort to mocking, dismissive jokes when discussing faith issues--I am just surprised, judge, to hear them from YOU!
(I guess if one puts a cute icon afterwards, then it is okay....)

If you have an assertion to make, please make it and be out front about it. Let your yes be "yes" and your no be "no." If you don't agree with my assertion, simply say so and provide your evidence for doing so. I am adult and I can take it.
 
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Ima Knerd

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Originally posted by fakemind
getting back to the original post - i find it really interesting! and definately something to look into. i havnet yet studied the claimed discrepancies in geneologies in the Bible, but i have faith there are none. :)

much Christian love,

Your post is a great example of why the knowledge and study of historical and archeological evidence in regard to the Bible is not necessary for a pure and strong faith. Many scholars draw a clear difference between the Jesus of history and the Christ of faith.

"Jesus was a man."--that is a statement of historical fact.
"Jesus is the messiah."--that is a statement of pietistic faith.

What is of concern to me is that most priests and pastors are at least exposed to many of these issues after they attend a seminary or theological school. Or do some reading. But because they seem not to want to "rock the boat," they keep many of us in the pews in a state of biblical illiteracy. This leads to ease but not growth.
 
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judge

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Originally posted by Aikido7
It is an interesting idea to resort to mocking, dismissive jokes when discussing faith issues--I am just surprised, judge, to hear them from YOU!
(I guess if one puts a cute icon afterwards, then it is okay....)

If you have an assertion to make, please make it and be out front about it. Let your yes be "yes" and your no be "no." If you don't agree with my assertion, simply say so and provide your evidence for doing so. I am adult and I can take it.

 

Apologies if you were offended. What you are saying is nonsense IMHO and you seem unmilling to say it straightforwardly.

You said the following.

"Rather than bend and limit the faith to accomodate contradictions in the texts, it seems common sensical to mainstream biblical scholarship to go for the simplest explanation: the gospels were written by different people with different agendas. The evangelists were people, not parrots; thinkers, not memorizers.

Like us, they fashioned a Jesus that <I>spoke to their present-day concerns</I>.


&nbsp;

Why no just come out and say it?

What you are saying is that the authors of the gospels made thse stories up. They lied. I am saying they did not lie and I am explainig why&nbsp;I think they did not.

&nbsp;

All the best
 
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judge

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Apologies if you were offended. What you are saying is nonsense IMHO and you seem unmilling to say it straightforwardly.

You said the following.

"Rather than bend and limit the faith to accomodate contradictions in the texts, it seems common sensical to mainstream biblical scholarship to go for the simplest explanation: the gospels were written by different people with different agendas. The evangelists were people, not parrots; thinkers, not memorizers.

Like us, they fashioned a Jesus that <I>spoke to their present-day concerns</I>&nbsp;"



Why no just come out and say it?

What you are saying is that the authors of the gospels made these stories up. They lied. I am saying they did not lie and I am explaining why&nbsp;I think they did not.



All the best
 
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Ima Knerd

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The evangelists did not lie. That is a vulgarization that I would never make and it is a secular idea that would never occur to the authors spreading the "Good News" of Jesus to the first-century world.

I only hope you read your Bible more carefully than you read my last post!

You have taken my reply and elaborated upon it, yet you deny the gospel writers did the same. If they were "channelers" of inerrant truths, then it must follow that our understanding of those truth must also be inerrant. This would mean that we would all have to have a claim on inerrant interpretation and we would all need to participate in an endless perfect chain of right interpretation! Clearly this is nonsense.

We moderns need to understand that the evangelists were human beings and experienced Jesus as continuing to be present with them after the crucifixion. This means that they were concerned with the Jesus who is. not the Jesus who necessarily was. the Jesus who speaks and acts, not the Jesus who may have spoke and acted.

It is clear to a careful reader that Matthew and Luke had copies of Mark in front of them when they wrote their account. This explains the consistent differences in their gospels. Matthew and Luke are not independent gospels but variations of Mark. I also believe they made use of a separate sayings source when they didn't follow Mark--often using it in the same order and with the same word combinations!

Most believers are understandably shocked at the notion that the gospel writers mythologized actual events and even created stories and sayings from scratch. There are a number of reasons for this: first, we live in a secular world and read the Bible as if it were a modern biography or a newspaper article. Second, clergy have been derelect in teaching the rest of us what has been known in Christian scholarship among theologians for nearly 300 years. Third, it has only been 500 years since Luther took the Bible away from the province of the priests and translated it for the people. One only has to enter a good, reputable Christian bookstore today to see the amazing number of Bibles and translations. It is as if Judge Wapner's "People's Court" did so well, so now it seems everyone in daytime TV is getting into the "court business."

Finally, there is that sticky matter of history versus faith--which is actually a false dichotomy, but even so it just proves the point that a Christian of the caliber of, say, Mother Teresa, can be a perfect example of the best of the faith and still not "need" to know anything about biblical scholarship and the quest for the "real" Jesus. No one is insisting that biblical scholarship be shoved in anyone's face (even though some fundamentalists actively try to subvert a fair hearing of the evidence!).

To the Christian who seeks a deeper and different dimension to her faith, the long tradition of Christian history, thought and interpretation is a refreshing well to drink from.

It has been quite recent in world history to add the letter "s" on the end of the word "religion." It has also been quite recent for anthropologists to define the word "myth" not in the popular sense terms of fable or falsehood. but in the sense that myth is the closest humans can come to describing absolute truth. Now that we're waking up to smell the coffee of other religions and cultures, we are finding ourselves in the awkward position of respecting humanity's other faiths, or seeing our faith as true and their faith as lies. If one reads the Bible as a literal, journalistic account of true history, then one will have a difference experience of the divine from the one who reads the Bible as a complex blend of history and theology.

I feel that all of these issues are profoundly disturbing--but I also feel that truth, and not "what we would wish to be so" should be the final standard. That is because finally, I have faith that God is omnipotent enough to take care of Himself!
 
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Ima Knerd

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The "real story" is lost, and we have to make the best of the sources we have.

I believe that Matthew and Luke were human beings, writing their accounts for different audiences, in different places and at different times. I also believe they were divinely inspired to write their gospels.

For the last 300 years, careful readers of the Bible have noticed that Mark's gospel was the earliest, and both Luke and Matthew had a copy of Mark in front of them when they wrote their gospels. If you read study the gospels in parallel the way scholars do--instead of reading them one after the other--you can watch how inispiration changes for both Matthew and Luke and appreciate how they wrote their accounts. There is also a sizable amount of material in Luke and Matthew that is very similar and can be found when they're not using Mark. This material is a "sayings source," a hypothetical "missing document" about the same length as another saying souce called "The Gospel of Thomas" found in Egypt in 1946. Both the Luke and Matthew source and the Thomas gospel contain a list of sayings attributed to Jesus. There are no birth narratives, passion accounts or crucifixion mentioned.

There is another level, another way to view the discrepancy in the geneologies without resorting to going beyond what is literally in the text.
That way is to view the gospels as a complex blend of history and theology. By taking this seriously, I do not take the Bible always literally. I am sorry if you feel that is "waffling," but it does make sense to me and to mainstream biblical scholars as well.
 
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Ima Knerd

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For the literal- minded, Luke begins with Adam and Matthew begins with Abraham.

Matthew traces through the royal line of the house of David, but Luke goes from David to Nathan--not Solomon--and ignores the royal line.

As you point out, Luke has Jesus' grandfather as Eli and Matthew says he was Jacob. Your "solution" is in keeping with Eusebius, a fourth-century Christian historian who went to great lengths to reconcile the grandfathers into one person, but his argument was as unconvincing as it was ingenious. He suggested that Jacob and Eli were brothers and that one died without having a son so the other brother married the widow who then had a son who was both his son and "his brother's son."

No one in the discipline of biblical studies supports this view today.
 
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judge

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Hi again, I'm sure it was not intentional but it seems you have misread my post.

&nbsp;

Originally posted by Aikido7
For the literal- minded, Luke begins with Adam and Matthew begins with Abraham.

Matthew traces through the royal line of the house of David, but Luke goes from David to Nathan--not Solomon--and ignores the royal line.

As you point out, Luke has Jesus' grandfather as Eli and Matthew says he was Jacob. Your "solution" is in keeping with Eusebius, a fourth-century Christian historian who went to great lengths to reconcile the grandfathers into one person, but his argument was as unconvincing as it was ingenious. He suggested that Jacob and Eli were brothers and that one died without having a son so the other brother married the widow who then had a son who was both his son and "his brother's son."

No one in the discipline of biblical studies supports this view today.

&nbsp;

I am not suggesting what you have said here :)

I do not seek to reconcile Eli and Jacob into one person. The whole point of my post was that they are two different people.

They were two different people. Matthew traces Mary's geneology and Luke traces Josephs. I'm sure if you re-read this will become clear.. All the best :)
 
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Ima Knerd

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Since scholarship is deconstructs faith claims and concentrates solely on historical data, it is not surpirising that many believers have chosen the Matthew/Mary and Luke/Joseph method of apologetics.

Like Eusebius, we can be disturbed by what appear to be "contradictions" to a literal, secular mindset.

It is perfectly understandable to want to "make things work out." You are strong in your faith and when history seems to negate that faith, your faith is large enough to supplant it.
 
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Outspoken

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"Rather than bend and limit the faith to accomodate contradictions in the texts, it seems common sensical to mainstream biblical scholarship to go for the simplest explanation: the gospels were written by different people with different agendas. The evangelists were people, not parrots; thinkers, not memorizers.
"

Nope, there are no contradictions in the text. In terms of geology just a simple look shows that.
 
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judge

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Originally posted by Aikido7
Since scholarship is deconstructs faith claims and concentrates solely on historical data, it is not surpirising that many believers have chosen the Matthew/Mary and Luke/Joseph method of apologetics.

Like Eusebius, we can be disturbed by what appear to be "contradictions" to a literal, secular mindset.

It is perfectly understandable to want to "make things work out." You are strong in your faith and when history seems to negate that faith, your faith is large enough to supplant it.
&nbsp;

&nbsp;Have you understood Eusebius's argument?

In view of the fact that I suggested you may have misread my post I will assume you made sure of what I had written before replying.

If you did check my post how is it that you think I am agreeing with Eusebius?

Eusebius following Julius Africanus IIRC suggest that Heli died childless, and that Jacob from Matthews gospel was the father of Joseph (the husband of Mary)

Do you realise I am directly contradicting this?

Jacob from matthews gospel awas the father of Joseph THE FATHER of mary (not Joseph the husband of Mary)

&nbsp;

All the best...anyway
 
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Ima Knerd

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When scriptural harmony is one's main goal, Lady Truth sometimes takes a back seat to theology.

Again, I want to point out that both Eusebius and modern believers each have their own valid ways of reconciling biblical contradictions. I just happen to belive those ways are not historical but theological in nature. Theology--not historical truth--is in the driver's seat.

It is my view that we have nothing to fear from contradictions, that God is strong enough to take it without having to be "defended" and that biblical contradictions do not negate the saving power of Christ.

But if it makes you feel safer or more of a Christian to argue against contradictions in the text--then by all means go for it! Being a biblical scholar and historian does not always have to be the same thing as being a true believer and a good Christian, even though it can profoundly deepen one's existing faith.
 
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