Conflicted about discipline

[DZoolander]

So, my 3.5 year old girl goes to daycare/preschool twice a week. We do it mostly to give my wife some time to herself (or now to take care of the new baby without interruption) - and also for the socialization aspects.

Well, her daycare apparently has a kid that's the class/school bully. Every day my daughter comes home and complains about how this kid pushes other kids around (supposedly her, too), hits other kids (supposedly her, too), etc. I've spoken with the school administrators - and while they admit that the kid has some behavioral issues - they assure me that he's nowhere close enough to her to be bullying her.

Today, however, apparently he was close enough to her that she clocked him, and they complained to my wife about it.

I assume they want us to discipline her - but ya know - I'm conflicted about that. She says that he hit her first - and given the history of her talking about this kid in that way (and given that the school apparently hasn't done anything to stem it) - I've got no problems with my daughter clocking the kid.

In fact - I intend once she's old enough to enroll her in Krav Maga classes. I don't want her to fight - but I want her to stand the best possible chances of winning one if push comes to shove. I also do not want her subjected to bullying - and if it means clocking the kid while the school stands around impotently - I don't really have a problem with it.

I dunno - what do you think? What would you do?

 

[Autumnleaf]

She should be home with her mother.

 

[Angeldove97]

I would look into strategies to teach my child how to deal with a bully in a non-violent way instead of going straight to allowing her to hit back. I get that kids need to defend themselves, but they're learning the wrong lesson if it's to use violence.

 

[rich1540]

What does the school mean by discipline? If it is anything other than a talking to, I'd be looking for another preschool.

Maybe you have a little chat to her about violence not being an acceptable solution, but to be honest, she sounds like a perfectly sensible little girl. Is there any other solution for dealing with a bully?

 

[Hetta]

What does the school mean by discipline? If it is anything other than a talking to, I'd be looking for another preschool.

Maybe you have a little chat to her about violence not being an acceptable solution, but to be honest, she sounds like a perfectly sensible little girl. Is there any other solution for dealing with a bully?

ITA with this. Excellent.

She sounds as though she has excellent boundaries and self-esteem, Ezoo. She won't let anyone push her around, and that's great. I also agree with her learning krav magna. That will also teacher her discipline, and that's important too.

Can parents spend any time in the classroom with the kids or is it closed to outsiders? I am just asking because I wondered about maybe your wife calling into the classroom and just observing what is going on once or twice.

FTR, all of my kids went to part-time preschool programs and it was a part of getting them socialized for elementary school. In kinder/first grade, I saw the difference between kids who had been socialized in this way, and those who had not, and it is a huge difference. It's a really good thing to get them in at this age and get them ready to being with lots of other kids a couple of times a week. They learn more about sharing and cooperating than they do at home, and again, HUGE difference when school starts. It also makes that first day at school parting much easier for the child, because she or he is used to it.

I wanted to say as a caution that when one of my kids was in pre-school, he kept saying that he was being 'pushed' and once told me he was pushed down the stairs by another kid! I was horrified of course and called them immediately, and they were utterly blindsided. The lady who ran the pre-school program said she would watch for the next few days, and she did, and she reported back that she saw nothing going on with him, while he was still telling me he was being 'pushed'. But then he started telling other stories too - like they had been to the zoo that day, which it was only a 3 hour program and no permission had been asked, so I don't think so! There is a capacity for telling tall tales at this age. I'm not saying your daughter isn't being honest, but that capacity for exaggeration and story telling isn't unique. I don't want to disparage your daughter's honesty, but just sayin' this happened!

 

[DZoolander]

I've had the same thought cross my mind - to be honest. As a 3.5 year old, she does have an active imagination, and is prone to exaggeration sometimes.

So, what I've been trying to do is to nail down from her exactly what happened...but it's been pretty difficult to get anything beyond "so and so is mean. So and so pushes people. So and so pushes me. I hit so and so because he hit me first."

I tried doing a little role playing - where I told her to pretend I was the bully in question and to show me where she hit him, and where he hit her. But - she's having no part of it...lol "You're not him, you're daddy! You're not mean!"

So, while I'm pretty thoroughly convinced that *something* happened - and that the kid is a problem - I can't say with 100% certainty it's what she's saying with respect to the incident in specific...ya know?

That being said - I still am reluctant to tell her she did something "wrong" by smacking the kid if he truly is bullying her. While violence isn't a good option - I remember from being a kid that sometimes the schoolyard is kinda like lord of the flies...lol Sometimes you do come across a kid that needs to get popped - else he will make yours and everyone else's lives miserable.

 

[Odetta]

We had a similar situation in a daycare we used to use. Daycare really didn't do anything about the problem kid, but tried to discipline the kids that pushed back.

Once when picking up my kids, I saw my youngest kid charge another kid when that kid puffed out his chest at him in an aggressive stance. I pulled my kids out to the car talking to them about how that was unnecessary level of response and he was in trouble when he got home, etc. Then my oldest piped up that this kid would tackle other kids on the daycare playground and rub their faces in the dirt and similar other similar things and no care giver ever did anything about it. My kids were crying over this, so I believed them. I marched right back in to the managers office and told her what my kids said. I also asked if this problem kid was the instigator of the 10 kid pile up that had happened on the playground the day before, but she couldn't tell me.

Anyway, I ended up pulling my kids out of that daycare. Apparently other families did too. Enough of them that the daycare owners fired about 5 people, including the director, and spent a ton in marketing trying to get these families back. And finally kicked the problem child out of the daycare.

Sometimes it takes a strong stance by the parent to get daycare personnel to act.

We also have the stance that our kids will know how to defend themselves, and will back them up if they get in trouble at school for it. We took them to some martial arts classes that focused specifically on moves to use to diffuse a physical altercation and protect oneself from physical harm without being the aggressor until an adult can step in.

 

[DZoolander]

Exactly. I don't intend to let my kid work out to be prey for other kids due to the negligence of an administrative staff who's hoping to keep their bottom line up.

 

[LilLamb219]

Are there no cameras in the classroom?

 

[DZoolander]

Nope - this school doesn't have that feature.

 

[Mayzoo]

Have you talked to the boy's parents to get the second side of the story? Neither side may be "The Truth," but it would give you a bigger picture.

 

[DZoolander]

Nope - don't know the kids parents.

Basically - the progression has been:

1: About a month and a half ago she started coming home talking about some new boy named "xxx" that was hitting people and pushing them down. She also said he was doing it to her.
2: Right after that I went to the administration and asked about the kid. They admitted that he goes there, and that he has behavioral issues, but assured me that he's not in her class/nowhere near her, so he can't be doing anything to her.
3: I took them at their word - and figured she's really sensitive to seeing others getting hurt/etc - so maybe she was just internalizing stuff she saw him do to other kids
4: Over the past month and a half, she still regularly comes home and says that "xxxx is mean.. xxxx is pushing kids down. xxxx was mean to me" etc etc etc. But, she also said stuff like "xxxx tried to give me a hug", and I also kept in mind what her teachers said about him being nowhere near her, so I wasn't following up on it.
5: Well, yesterday, clearly he was close enough that she could pop him...and like I said...it was the same "He's mean to people, he's pushing people down" - followed by "He hit me first."

That's about the state of things so far.

 

[Mayzoo]

Nope - don't know the kids parents.

Basically - the progression has been:

1: About a month and a half ago she started coming home talking about some new boy named "xxx" that was hitting people and pushing them down. She also said he was doing it to her.
2: Right after that I went to the administration and asked about the kid. They admitted that he goes there, and that he has behavioral issues, but assured me that he's not in her class/nowhere near her, so he can't be doing anything to her.
3: I took them at their word - and figured she's really sensitive to seeing others getting hurt/etc - so maybe she was just internalizing stuff she saw him do to other kids
4: Over the past month and a half, she still regularly comes home and says that "xxxx is mean.. xxxx is pushing kids down. xxxx was mean to me" etc etc etc. But, she also said stuff like "xxxx tried to give me a hug", and I also kept in mind what her teachers said about him being nowhere near her, so I wasn't following up on it.
5: Well, yesterday, clearly he was close enough that she could pop him...and like I said...it was the same "He's mean to people, he's pushing people down" - followed by "He hit me first."

That's about the state of things so far.

They likely have common areas during outside play time .

I know nothing about daycare or their policies, but it seems as though the day care could set up a meeting between you and the other parents since this became briefly physical. You all can talk and brainstorm future solutions together. Despite the daycare's lackadaisical attitude, it is unlikely this will just go away on its own, so some type of mitigation is order.

 

[DZoolander]

They likely have common areas during outside play time .

Yeah - which is what I figured after yesterday...and truthfully found kinda irksome.

If I come to you and say my kid is alleging being bullied by another kid - and you know they have common time in the play-yard together - why do you tell me that it can't be happening "because they're not in the same class"?

 

[ValleyGal]

Has your daughter singled out any of the other kids? Have you talked with their parents to see if their children are reporting the pushy kid? If other children are saying he is pushing kids around, it's time for the parents to all discuss it with the admin. You should also remind the d/c providers of the conversation you had with them more than a month ago when they assured you the bully was nowhere near your child...and then say he was close enough she could pop him.

I have seen far too many incidents where a bullied child is the one who ends up being punished for the bully's bad behaviour. I also happen to think that these d/c providers should be teaching children how to have respectful relationships even at that age. For some of them, it could be the only exposure they get to healthy relationships, and that is a key time in their development for it.

 

[Mayzoo]

Yeah - which is what I figured after yesterday...and truthfully found kinda irksome.

If I come to you and say my kid is alleging being bullied by another kid - and you know they have common time in the play-yard together - why do you tell me that it can't be happening "because they're not in the same class"?

I won't tell ya that .

Likely, they are simply trying to brush this issue under the rug and hope it goes away. This kid may have other complaints against him, or he may be a worker/manager/owner's kid....no telling.

 

[Mayzoo]

Possibly, but unlikely, similar to a situation I was in as a child. I watched a kid my age (7-8?) beating up another kid, two boys--the bully 2-3 years older.. I went over warned the abuser to leave the other kid alone. He would not and starting giving me guff. I hit him on the back of the hand with a glasses case. Of course, no damage done, but he went home and cried to his mom. His mom came over and complained to my mom. I got a severe whopping because my mother was embarrassed that another parent came over to complain. She never got my side or investigated.

You say your daughter is sensitive and she complains of this boy bulling others a lot. It is not outside the realm of possibility that she had had enough of watching him hurt others (like I had as a child), even if he never touched her. BUT, it is more likely that he bullied her too. Without more information you will may never know what really happened. Since you know this kid has been complained about (at least by you), an adult should have been keeping a close eye on him at all times that he is freely with other kids (playtime), so where were the adults who should be able to say exactly what happened?

 

[NannaNae]

She should be home with her mother.

" and also for the socialization aspects" because all this ^^^ that is what socialization is.. do you want her to learn to be compliant to it or to live above it? your choice!

 

[mkgal1]

They admitted that he goes there, and that he has behavioral issues, but assured me that he's not in her class/nowhere near her, so he can't be doing anything to her.

A very similar scenario happened with our daughter (about the same age, too). The difference being that, in her situation, we were notified....but it was acknowledged (by the school) this was out of character for her to behave that way and the boy (who was known to have behavior issues ) had been goading her for weeks (and wouldn't listen to her or the teachers to stop).

Maybe your daughter's school doesn't consider it "bullying".....but it's obviously to the point of "harassing", and something should be done about the boys behavior (and maybe they can instruct your daughter--with your support-- on a better means to handle it, to where she knows she'll be backed up). It seems to me that she believed she needed to take matters into her own hands, because the school wouldn't do anything about her earlier complaints

 

[mkgal1]

I witnessed what I thought was a positive outcome of another similar situation (only a few months ago, while visiting my daughter's former school). This was between two little three year-old girls.....one literally grabbed a toy out of the other's hands. The teacher immediately took that girl aside and said she knows that she knows that's not acceptable behavior. She asked the little three year-old to "use her words" to describe what she was feeling right then. The little girl (the one that did the grabbing) responded by saying, "I'm frustrated!". Then she was asked what was frustrating her. This is what surprised me.....to hear this from a three year-old. She said, "I think I'm jealous." There were more details....but basically she was instructed on acceptable ways to handle jealousy and frustration.

Not that this applies specifically to your daughter's situation......but, to me, that's what learning socialization is. Children need to be heard and understood.....(so do the parents)....and it doesn't seem that much listening is going on from the school (and they're ignoring the root issues---like this boy's behavior).