Conflict of Conscience vs Scripture

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Israel had a law from God, no less:

15 "If a slave has taken refuge with you, do not hand them over to their master. 16 Let them live among you wherever they like and in whatever town they choose. Do not oppress them."

That's 3500 years before we were trying to do this in the U.S.A.

Ooops --- look at the context of God's Command and Promise >>>>
(the united states and most churches in most places fail utterly) >>>>

"14"Since the LORD your God walks in the midst of your camp(NOT the usa) to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp(obviously not the usa) must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you."

 

[Sketcher]

So you are saying that moral rules exist, and God (alone) is not beholden to such rules/morals. And by extension if someone was commanded by God to do something against those rules then that person would be exempt from Judgement from those actions or is it for God alone to take such actions?

No. I am saying that God is the supreme authority, and he gave us rules to live by, and our human rights. God did not give to man the right to take another man's life for any and every reason. He gave permission to do that some of the time in specific circumstances (i.e. one man murders another and has had a fair trial with at least two witnesses), but it's not a blank check. God alone may take a life for any and every reason. If God were to tell someone to kill another specific person, then they would be right to do so, but he will not give that order to any Christian, he has given us marching orders already which are completely incompatible with that.

 

[Sketcher]

I can agree in the statement but must say that almost every position has been taken by theists on most subjects and scripture has been used to defend each of the positions.

During Slavery debates people just screamed bible passages at each other, for hours on end. Suffragettes movement similar, each side came armed with Scripture supporting their own side.

So even if we sat here today with Slavery still present in the Southern States and male only voting rights you would still be able to make the same statement and be accurate.

Yes I would. It wouldn't be an endorsement of abuses of either of those social aspects either.

 

[FredVB]

Ooops --- look at the context of God's Command and Promise >>>>
(the united states and most churches in most places fail utterly) >>>>

"14"Since the LORD your God walks in the midst of your camp(NOT the usa) to deliver you and to defeat your enemies before you, therefore your camp(obviously not the usa) must be holy; and He must not see anything indecent among you or He will turn away from you."

Our own and other countries are not the people of Israel among whom Yahweh walked to whom the conditional promises were given, certainly, though most of the people of that descent now, or at all the modern state of Israel, are not living with that perfect holiness. Yet the morality that there is call to in those conditions are still right for all of us, and there would still be blessings in that for those who are in Christ. It won't be morality that will be liked though in this modern world, and there are many Christians who are worldly too, with having the materialism among them that is in the world around them. There is still yet the perfect will of Yahweh that many neglect.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Sorry, no. There were no innocent children ..... and the destruction was not just for mis-deeds, but for complete evil hearts full of deception, devastation, "kill, steal and destroy" motives from the very core of all the hearts, much like today....

Now you can see what happens when devotion to scripture snuffs out your conscience.

 

[durangodawood]

Scripture always takes precedence over conscience, which doesn't reside on some higher level judging Scripture....

So did someone else decide for you that scripture should be considered worthy?

 

[durangodawood]

Sorry, no. There were no innocent children ..... and the destruction was not just for mis-deeds, but for complete evil hearts full of deception, devastation, "kill, steal and destroy" motives from the very core of all the hearts, much like today....

Are the children in your life evil to the core?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Are the children in your life evil to the core?

Read Ephesians 2, and see Galatians expanded greek study pdf by wuest.
ALL society (all children) are under the prince of the power of the air, the devil,
EXcept those purchased by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD.
See? All those children you see around you , EXCEPT those purchased (redeemed) by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD (JESUS),
are subjects of the devil, not subjects of JESUS in the Kingdom of God.

Thus, another reason and need to be saved by grace through faith in JESUS - to escape the total corruption of mankind, the only way possible - in JESUS.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Now you can see what happens when devotion to scripture snuffs out your conscience.

Serve YHVH (GOD) or serve the devil. Two choices. One leading to life - the narrow road to life that few find; the other leading to destruction - the wide popular road most choose to remain on.
'devotion' ?
'scripture' ?
'conscience' ?
Won't make any difference if someone is on (and stays on) the wide road.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Now you can see what happens when devotion to scripture snuffs out your conscience.

We can also see what happens when unparalleled devotion to unwarranted axiomatic thinking in relation to the modern assumptions of the Human Rights Regime and World Democracy, or any other Post-Enlightenment wannabe socio-political regime, such as is also seen in overgrown and godless Socialism and/or Communism, goes to seed and thus snuffs out faith in the one true Lord, Jesus Christ.

[For those of you who are thinking: Oh, my gosh! 2PhiloVoid doesn't believe in Human Rights!!!! Travesty!!! Despair!!! Incredulity!!!!

........uh no, just come to your senses and realize ... that's not what I actually said above. As a Christian, I do believe there are 'human rights,' it's just that they don't come in the shape and form that everyone is preferring these days...]

 

[durangodawood]

Read Ephesians 2, and see Galatians expanded greek study pdf by wuest.
ALL society (all children) are under the prince of the power of the air, the devil,
EXcept those purchased by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD.
See? All those children you see around you , EXCEPT those purchased (redeemed) by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD (JESUS),
are subjects of the devil, not subjects of JESUS in the Kingdom of God.

Thus, another reason and need to be saved by grace through faith in JESUS - to escape the total corruption of mankind, the only way possible - in JESUS.

Well even if true, its hardly the childs fault.

 

[Halbhh]

Now you can see what happens when devotion to scripture snuffs out your conscience.

There are no scriptures saying children were not innocent. Further, we have Romans 2:6-16, and 5:13 and other verses showing those who die young will gain Life. When God destroyed certain cities, such as for reasons like Ezekiel 16:49-50, Deuteronomy 12:31, and more, we can understand that in those extremely evil conditions, these innocent children were taken away from that evil and will live again. But what of adults like you and me? What will be our results when all is revealed, every prejudice, every act of not-love? .... only Christ Jesus could save such as us. He can make you new.

 

[Halbhh]

Well even if true, its hardly the childs fault.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

And the beginning of Matthew 18
.
His words trump our guessing.

But Romans 5:13 Can help you understand how children will be judged. And 4:15 --

"And where there is no law there is no transgression."

No matter what anyone asserts in any other answer, it's just fact without awareness of doing wrong -- think here of children unaware of doing what we consider a wrong thing, because they are immature and don't yet understand -- without awareness, there is no accountability, no sin.
Sin is only that done with awareness of doing wrong, not done accidentally, not done without understanding. Sin is only that one knows is wrong and does intentionally knowing it is wrong.

All will be judged fairly. Romans chapter 2, verses 6-16
Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

 

[Par5]

Read Ephesians 2, and see Galatians expanded greek study pdf by wuest.
ALL society (all children) are under the prince of the power of the air, the devil,
EXcept those purchased by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD.
See? All those children you see around you , EXCEPT those purchased (redeemed) by the BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD (JESUS),
are subjects of the devil, not subjects of JESUS in the Kingdom of God.

Thus, another reason and need to be saved by grace through faith in JESUS - to escape the total corruption of mankind, the only way possible - in JESUS.

You may call yourself "redeemed", I call it religious mania. Your fanaticism appears to have robbed you of empathy for others who share this planet with you. On reading your posts I can only shake my head and wonder how anyone can end up with such a view of life as you do. What turns people away from Christianity more than anything else are Christians themselves. You are one of those Christians.

 

[Halbhh]

You may call yourself "redeemed", I call it religious mania. Your fanaticism appears to have robbed you of empathy for others who share this planet with you. On reading your posts I can only shake my head and wonder how anyone can end up with such a view of life as you do. What turns people away from Christianity more than anything else are Christians themselves. You are one of those Christians.

Well even if true, its hardly the childs fault.

Fortunately, the scripture instead points to a much better situation for all: to do 'wrong', one must be aware it is wrong. Not by accident, nor by innocent actions without understanding. To be accountable, we have to know it's wrong when we do it.

"And where there is no law there is no transgression." (Romans ch 4, and again in chapter 5)

No matter what anyone asserts in any other answer, it's just fact without awareness of doing wrong -- think here of children unaware of doing what we consider a wrong thing, because they are immature and don't yet understand -- there is no accountability, no sin.

So, first children aren't doing sin, because they do not understand. They are still truly in a state of innocence regarding their immature actions! This helps us understand one part (there are more) of why Christ said of children not yet baptized (in His own words!) --
Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

All will be judged fairly (children, adults, those incapacitated, all, no exceptions). Romans chapter 2, verses 6-16 (if you want to understand this better, read with real listening through Romans chapter 2, or at least verse 6-16)
Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

So, children who die are going to gain Life, generally. But....what about you and me? What will be our outcome?

There is someone who can wash you clean of all wrongs you've done. It took nothing less than the necessity that the very One from God (with Him since the beginning) would have to come and suffer under all our wrongs so that we could be changed, and redeemed! It's an amazing grace, truly.

 

[Fantine]

Some people look at the scriptures in a cultural context. Polygamy was sanctioned in the Old Testament, and yet it is condemned today. The reason might be that the earth needed to be populated quickly--while the opposite problem exists today. Perhaps the male population was decimated in war time, leaving women unprotected, and creating a great need for the male population to be replenished quickly.

Approval of polygamy was obviously a matter of necessity, but modern people find the morality of polygamy questionable.

Certainly slavery is an even more heinous offense against human rights against which our souls should cry out--yet Paul told slaves to obey their masters.

I would add that there are many ways of reading the Bible, and, in today's individualized society, many people will read the Bible to ascertain how God is speaking to them personally--and they will view everything they read in that context.

 

[DogmaHunter]

My conscience on slavery issues, treatment of women, or rape does not conflict with the Bible's moral commands surrounding these issues.

So, you are fine with the practice of slavery?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I'm not familiar with a pro-slavery or anti-slavery view in Scripture. Could you define what you mean by slavery and demonstrate how Scripture speaks in favor of it?

Slavery: to own human beings and consider them your private property, to the point where you can buy and sell them and where your off spring can even inherit them. And where the slave does not have the freedom to leave.

How scripture speaks in favor of it? It says "do it" and it even regulates the practice, explaining in disturbing detail who you can enslave, how to buy them, how to enslave them for life, how to pass them on to off spring, how and to what extent you can beat them, etc.

Didn't you read the OT?

 

[DogmaHunter]

I don't see how these Scriptures are pro-slavery.

The first is instructions for how Christian slaves ought to live. There were many slaves in the Greco Roman world who became Christians. They needed to know how to live. So Paul gives them instruction.

The second is case law for how people should be punished for sexual activity with slaves. It does not positively command or condone slavery.

The third is a restriction on Hebrew debt-slavery. No matter the size of the debt, the slavery could only last 6 years.

How are those laws and instructions pro slavery?

Because if the bible were anti-slavery, there would be no need for all these rules and things...
Instead of all that, it would simply state: "thou shall not keep slaves" and leave it at that.

 

[Tree of Life]

So, you are fine with the practice of slavery?

I don't have a problem with ancient debt slavery per se.