Conflict of Conscience vs Scripture

[Rivga]

A question for Theists, given the Scriptures of most of the major religions are old and given that morality* has moved on since most of the scriptures were wrote.

How do you bridge the gap between what is clearly in the your scriptures and your Conscience?

For example Homosexuality - whilst I realise a lot of Theists still disagree with this and there is no conflict between Scripture and Conscience for them, but for many Theists in the west there is clearly a conflict (see Ireland historic vote).
Or another easy example is Slavery, which is significantly less divisive than homosexuality, now but it was not at a certain point.



*this is an assertion, but one based on evidence of the change in societal behaviours, Laws, justice systems, you get the picture.

 

[HereIStand]

Scripture always takes precedence over conscience, which doesn't reside on some higher level judging Scripture. Liberal theologians in the Presbyterian camp will sometimes appeal to the "God alone is Lord of the conscience" portion of the Presbyterian Confessions. But they omit the second part, "God alone is Lord of the conscience, and has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men, which are, in any thing, contrary to His Word; or beside it, if matters of faith, or worship. So that, to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience."

 

[Rivga]

to believe such doctrines, or to obey such commands, out of conscience, is to betray true liberty of conscience."

Not sure I 100%, are you saying that to disagree with scripture is to betray true liberty of Conscience.

But if you are only free to follow scripture then surely be definition you have no liberty of Conscience.

Or was my interpretation of what you wrote incorrect?

 

[Tree of Life]

A question for Theists, given the Scriptures of most of the major religions are old and given that morality* has moved on since most of the scriptures were wrote.

How do you bridge the gap between what is clearly in the your scriptures and your Conscience?

For example Homosexuality - whilst I realise a lot of Theists still disagree with this and there is no conflict between Scripture and Conscience for them, but for many Theists in the west there is clearly a conflict (see Ireland historic vote).
Or another easy example is Slavery, which is significantly less divisive than homosexuality, now but it was not at a certain point.



*this is an assertion, but one based on evidence of the change in societal behaviours, Laws, justice systems, you get the picture.

My conscience does not dictate to me that homosexual practice is good or permissible. So there is no conflict between my conscience and Scripture on this issue.

 

[Rivga]

My conscience does not dictate to me that homosexual practice is good or permissible. So there is no conflict between my conscience and Scripture on this issue.

The question was not just about Homosexuality - that was simply an example of were many theists have a conflict.
For you maybe Slavery or treatment of Women or attitudes to Rape.

 

[Tree of Life]

The question was not just about Homosexuality - that was simply an example of were many theists have a conflict.
For you maybe Slavery or treatment of Women or attitudes to Rape.

My conscience on slavery issues, treatment of women, or rape does not conflict with the Bible's moral commands surrounding these issues.

 

[Zoii]

I have to follow my conscience and ethics. God commanded or committed mass murder in frequent areas of the bible despite a commandment of not to murder - Death is required for adultery by stoning. There is conflict between retribution for harm done to you and family, and a requirement to turn the other cheek. These types of conflicting arguments within the bible highlight that each case has its own merit and for me personally my upbringing has left me with what I believe is a good set of ethical principles. So I have no intention of committing harm to anyone but I will defend myself. I have no reason to denounce gays and lesbians and never have understood the comments I witness about this group. I refuse to be black/white on controversial issues such as abortion - my view here is that it shouldn't be done because it IS taking life HOWEVER I also know thats so easy for me to say because I'm not a girl pregnant from rape OR have a condition that threatens my life due to my pregnancy OR I am not living in a developed nation in conditions of extreme poverty with too many mouths to feed already.

The bible is a guide for life - I cannot put my whole faith in literal translations, particularly because it was written with views consistent with the culture and knowledge of the world at the time. That said the paradigms emerging from the bible are worthy and is why I choose to follow it.

 

[Rivga]

My conscience on slavery issues, treatment of women, or rape does not conflict with the Bible's moral commands surrounding these issues.

So on slavery, scripture takes two different view points:
Pro-Slavery view - Supported by Exodus (and many more)
Vs
Anti-Slavery view - Supported by the likes of Deuteronomy

How do you choose which one.

 

[Tree of Life]

So on slavery, scripture takes two different view points:
Pro-Slavery view - Supported by Exodus (and many more)
Vs
Anti-Slavery view - Supported by the likes of Deuteronomy

How do you choose which one.

I'm not familiar with a pro-slavery or anti-slavery view in Scripture. Could you define what you mean by slavery and demonstrate how Scripture speaks in favor of it?

 

[JoeyChris]

A Rule of thumb may help you.

Old Testament: you shall not do these things (written in the negative, commandments to Jews)
New Testament : you shall/ encouraged to/be these things (written in a positive, encouraging style to Christians)

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 22:36-38 - King James Version
A Christian who truly loves God will not worship other gods, commit blasphemy etc.

A Christian who truly loves their neighbour will NOT murder, commit adultery, slander, steal, lie etc.

The specific, observable laws to set Jews apart from surrounding peoples in Old Testament are not paraphrased for Christians in New Testaments.

 

[JoeyChris]

I'm not familiar with a pro-slavery or anti-slavery view in Scripture. Could you define what you mean by slavery and demonstrate how Scripture speaks in favor of it?

Reasons for Old Testament position. Why is slavery permitted in the Bible? | CARM.org

Detailed explanation for Old Testament and New Testament slavery. The Bible and Slavery

In this translation slaves are called servants. Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 6:5-9 - King James Version
In verse 9 the masters are told to behave in a manner which would put many 21st century employers to shame.

 

[Rivga]

I'm not familiar with a pro-slavery or anti-slavery view in Scripture. Could you define what you mean by slavery and demonstrate how Scripture speaks in favor of it?

Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:5-8)

'Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. (Leviticus 19:20)

Exodus gives detailed rules on how long you can own a slave of various tribes. He is a one of the rules:

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2)

The above was used by the South to legitimise its claim that God was on the side of the Slave owners.

I Know that there are a few quotations that are certainly Anti Slavery, but I cannot find them currently.

 

[Tree of Life]

Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free. (Ephesians 6:5-8)

'Now if a man lies carnally with a woman who is a slave acquired for another man, but who has in no way been redeemed nor given her freedom, there shall be punishment; they shall not, however, be put to death, because she was not free. (Leviticus 19:20)

Exodus gives detailed rules on how long you can own a slave of various tribes. He is a one of the rules:

"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2)

The above was used by the South to legitimise its claim that God was on the side of the Slave owners.

I Know that there are a few quotations that are certainly Anti Slavery, but I cannot find them currently.

I don't see how these Scriptures are pro-slavery.

The first is instructions for how Christian slaves ought to live. There were many slaves in the Greco Roman world who became Christians. They needed to know how to live. So Paul gives them instruction.

The second is case law for how people should be punished for sexual activity with slaves. It does not positively command or condone slavery.

The third is a restriction on Hebrew debt-slavery. No matter the size of the debt, the slavery could only last 6 years.

How are those laws and instructions pro slavery?

 

[HereIStand]

Not sure I 100%, are you saying that to disagree with scripture is to betray true liberty of Conscience.

But if you are only free to follow scripture then surely be definition you have no liberty of Conscience.

Or was my interpretation of what you wrote incorrect?

Christians have liberty of conscience where Scripture is unclear or doesn't command or prohibit something. If though, as in the case of gay sex/marriage, there is no liberty of conscience to go against Scripture.

 

[Sketcher]

A question for Theists, given the Scriptures of most of the major religions are old and given that morality* has moved on since most of the scriptures were wrote.

How do you bridge the gap between what is clearly in the your scriptures and your Conscience?

For example Homosexuality - whilst I realise a lot of Theists still disagree with this and there is no conflict between Scripture and Conscience for them, but for many Theists in the west there is clearly a conflict (see Ireland historic vote).
Or another easy example is Slavery, which is significantly less divisive than homosexuality, now but it was not at a certain point.



*this is an assertion, but one based on evidence of the change in societal behaviours, Laws, justice systems, you get the picture.

Most of the changes to what constitutes morality in the eyes of this culture are influenced by at least one principle or set of principles found in Scripture. So that helps keep this in perspective.

In terms of slavery specifically, this country by and large failed at keeping the treatment of slaves in line with what the New Testament requires. The enormity of this moral failing combined with the relative lack of benefits to either the Gospel or the society itself that would have existed if we had kept it around, makes getting rid of slavery a good trade. Besides, there are also the teachings about God having no favoritism between classes of people, and the general call of the Gospel is to love people rather than dominate them.

 

[Sketcher]

God commanded or committed mass murder in frequent areas of the bible despite a commandment of not to murder - Death is required for adultery by stoning. There is conflict between retribution for harm done to you and family, and a requirement to turn the other cheek.

God commanded executions, but executions are not the same as murder, Biblically speaking. Different Hebrew words are used, in addition to the general context which teaches that God isn't going to say, "Don't do that," and "Do that same thing I told you not to do." Context is very important.

 

[Zoii]

God commanded executions, but executions are not the same as murder.

I find that concept difficult to reconcile. God commanded the destruction of townships including women and children. he wiped out the whole world in a flood because of the mis-deeds of some - even innocent children. To say it wasnt murder is walking a very fine line and would be tough to discern what the difference between murder and god doing it AKA execution. I do find it is "Dont do that thing that Im allowed to do"

 

[Sketcher]

I find that concept difficult to reconcile. God commanded the destruction of townships including women and children. he wiped out the whole world in a flood because of the mis-deeds of some - even innocent children. To say it wasnt murder is walking a very fine line and would be tough to discern what the difference between murder and god doing it AKA execution. I do find it is "Dont do that thing that Im allowed to do"

God reserved some things for him alone to do. Revenge is a very famous example. Killings aren't a long way away from that.

 

[Rivga]

God reserved some things for him alone to do. Revenge is a very famous example. Killings aren't a long way away from that.

So you are saying that moral rules exist, and God (alone) is not beholden to such rules/morals. And by extension if someone was commanded by God to do something against those rules then that person would be exempt from Judgement from those actions or is it for God alone to take such actions?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God commanded the destruction of townships including women and children. he wiped out the whole world in a flood because of the mis-deeds of some - even innocent children.

Sorry, no. There were no innocent children ..... and the destruction was not just for mis-deeds, but for complete evil hearts full of deception, devastation, "kill, steal and destroy" motives from the very core of all the hearts, much like today....